"Beast" wrote:

I'm sure he can answer for himself.

But now that I have found out who he actually is, I have no reason to question his lawyer-ness.

never underestimate the viglience of Beast

i believe whatever he says

nothing can get past this man

Beast just because I am not ur standard joe blog forum member... doesn't mean I'm not entirely accurate with my facts,...

I have no reason to appease or impress anyone at all especially you lot..

LISTEN we all got off on the wrong foot... I just didn't like the way beast and 100woman have an opinion on me when I was merely sharing my views albeit somewhat unacceptable to the pacifistic nature of this forum... if i do not conform to your idiotic standard doesn't mean I'm lying...

So either go to hell or just chill out..

AND JUST FOR YOUR INFO I AM A LAWYER BY TRADE ...I RUN A VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS IN PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT... I AM VERY WELL TRAVELLED ... CONTRARY TO FORUM BELIEF I AM WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED IN MY AREA AND AMONGST MY PEERS...

I have a temper and am outspoken ....

I have many claims to fame..

Had my article published, been on a party political broadcast, have 100% success record in court and in police station duty solicitor work (undesirable work awkward long hours) and in my current work, have fought in the european championships freestyle kickboxing in 98, have travelled extensively china x4, saudi x5, dubai x2, us, africa, europe, too name but a few, I was the youngest man to have managed 5 bank branches as a manager in uk.. ALHUMDULILLAH i have excelled in everything I have done to date.. and financially im secure and have and am making others secure also by the grace of ALLah.

and if u dont believe me ... I COULDN'T CARE LESS..

Im on here for a laugh... and its nice to talk interact with others... especially talking about islam... but u lot spendt ime bickering with each other... about others opinions

any way... good luck.. im not here for long as i have a very busy period in my calender in the forthcoming weeks

P.S. all muslim sisters and brothers... IF U NEED ANY HELP IN LEGAL MATTERS AND/OR FINANCIAL MATTERS I'LL BE HAPPY TO HELP...

[size=18]Clash of the Uncivilized: Insights on the Cartoon Controversy[/size]
[size=15][b]By Imam Zaid Shakir[/b][/size]

As the crisis that has emerged in the aftermath of the publication of the infamous cartoons that claim to depict the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of God upon him, escalates, we would do well by stepping back and attempting to analyze the situation as dispassionately as possible. By doing so, as Muslims, we can hopefully formulate a more productive and meaningful response, and avoid being exploited by either side in the ongoing conflict. Saying this, I do not mean to imply that Muslims are not justifiably angry over the caricatures. However, I would agree with those who argue that responses that involve wild outbreaks of frenzied violence are inappropriate, and they only affirm what the cartoonist is trying to imply. Namely, that Islam is a religion that encourages obscurantist violence and terrorism.

The current crisis shows the extent we Muslims are vulnerable to media manipulation, superficial shows of piety, and counterproductive one-upmanship militancy. If we start with the issue of media manipulation, it is clear that Western and Eastern media outlets played a large role in stirring up Muslim, and now Western sentiments. When the crisis initially broke in September, it was barely a blip on the media radar. Few outside of Denmark even knew of the cartoons. The Danish Muslim community, appropriately, by and large ignored the story. [1] It was only after a campaign undertaken by a delegation of Danish Muslim community activists to stimulate greater interest in the issue that the crisis reached the proportions we are currently witnessing. These activists traveled throughout the Muslim East trying to draw attention to the issue. When the issue was popularized by Iqra and other Arab satellite channels, and the cartoons were reprinted by several European papers, the crisis deepened. In light of that reality, it would be hard to deny the role the media has played in sparking and now perpetuating the crisis.

A question we must ask is if these cartoons, which are an example of hundreds of other anti-Islamic slights occurring daily in Europe and America, were not brought to the attention of Muslims by the media, would we be undergoing the current brouhaha? - Clearly not. That being the case, what does this say about our strategic vision? What does this say about our level of political maturity? And what does it say about our ability to engage in meaningful proactive work? The answers to these questions are obvious. We get angry about Israeli troops breaking the bones of Palestinian children, as long as it is in the media. When it disappears from our television screens, our interest vanishes with it. We raise millions of dollars for those affected by the Tsunami, as long as the images of death and destruction are beamed into our homes by the media. However, when the coverage shifts to other issues, the donations dry up. As for those crises that do not make the news in a big way, such as the ongoing famines in Mali, Niger, and the Horn of Africa, we are hardly stirred to action.

Furthermore, we go on living our lives oblivious to the ongoing abuse of Islam and our Prophet, peace and blessing of God upon him, until it becomes a major media event. At that point based on urgings issued by parties, the origins of their dubious agendas unknown to us, we are expected to drop everything and hastily rush into the fray. In many instances, our ill-conceived actions only make the situation worse.

Sometimes, those actions may constitute superficial shows of piety emanating from the mob hysteria underlying them. In the mob we are empowered, and find it easy to confront our opponents, defy the rule of law, behave with wanton abandon, or engage in other acts which under the proper circumstances we may view as supporting Islam. In terms of more constructive mass actions, such as emerging into the streets by the tens of thousands to protest the brutal, authoritarian regimes that make a mockery of the prophetic ideals of justice, mutual consultation, and service to the oppressed and downtrodden of society, we come up terribly short. Similarly, there are no credible grassroots efforts towards forming effective anti-defamation organizations to bring constructive legal action against transgressing organizations and individuals, on a fulltime, proactive basis. As individuals, we find it difficult to support the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, by adorning ourselves with his lofty character traits, or reviving His Sunnah in our daily lives.

On the other hand, as mentioned above, it is all too easy to get swept up into the mob hysteria generated by the crowd, and then engage in outrageous actions that only affirm the offensive claims of the transgressing cartoonist. It is as if we are saying, “We’ll show the Kafirs our Prophet, peace upon him was no terrorist! We’ll defame the symbols of their religion [2] burn their embassies, murder their unsuspecting innocents, and behead the bloody cartoonist if we get our hands on him.” [3]

This brings us to my third point, that of counterproductive, one-upmanship militancy. It is during these crises that all Muslims are supposed to drop everything and join the latest “Jihad” fad. Those of us who urge restraint are mocked as not being militant enough, or ridiculed as cowards who are afraid to “stand up to the real enemies of Islam.” No differences in understanding, interpretation, or strategy are allowed, because there is only one correct approach, the one stumbled upon with the aid of modern, sensationalizing media.

Such a reactive, haphazard approach is counterproductive for a number of reasons. First of all, it destroys the basis for proactive work based on the existence of a strategic vision. As long as the enemies of Islam know that they can mobilize the Muslims to chase after an unimaginable number of distracting issues, divide our ranks by those issues, and diffuse our energies through their debate and the pursuit of their resolution, they will possess a trump card that will affect our ability to unite and work more effectively towards creating and implementing an agenda capable of effecting meaningful change in our circumstance. It also blinds us to the underlying agenda that reckless spontaneous action might be unwittingly serving.

For example, it is interesting that these events have come to a head in the immediate aftermath of the stunning landslide victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections. That victory has rekindled, both in the East and the West, the debate around the implications of supporting democratization in the Muslim world when the biggest winners will be Islamic parties and movements. There are secularists in both the West and the Muslim world who advocate ending the democratizing experiment on that basis. However, they know that denying the democratic will of the Muslim peoples cannot be done without the support of the masses of people in Europe and America. These masses, especially in Britain and America, are increasingly wary of their governments’ nefarious agenda for the Middle East. However, the frightening images of crazed crowds rampaging, looting, and burning provides a powerful justification for the extreme, repressive policies being advocated by the far right for dealing with Islam and Muslims, both domestically, and internationally. Democracy in the Muslim world, they argue, will bring the advocates of mob rule to power.

If brutal draconian measures, such as those employed to end the democratization process in Algeria in the early 1990s, are employed elsewhere, the Western public will be psychologically prepared to accept those measures, because of the fear that has been created around the “Islamic” alternative. That fear can not only be used to justify denying the democratic will of the Muslim peoples, it can also be used to justify denying their legitimate strategic ambitions. A recent editorial in the Jerusalem Post links the fanaticism of the cartoon protests to the lawful nuclear ambitions of Iran. It states, “If anyone wants to appreciate why the West views with such suspicion the weapons programs of Muslim states such as Iran, they need look no further than the intolerance Muslim regimes exhibit to these cartoons, and what this portends.”

This crisis has also occurred in the immediate aftermath of the appearance of the latest “Bin Laden” tape, intensified warnings of an imminent major terrorist attack in the West, something "on the scale of 9/11," and it coincides with the escape of the alleged mastermind of the attack on the USS Cole from a Yemeni jail. The fear associated with the latter two events, combined with the images of hysterical protesters, work to create a climate that can support unprecedented measures if another major terrorist attack were to occur in the near future –whoever the perpetrators may be.

In addition to the setbacks on the psychological front, the current crisis indicates just how bad we are losing in the Jihad of ideas. It is not without significance that the ultimate objective of Jihad is linked to ideas. The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of God upon him, was asked about a man who fought to display his bravery, another who fought out of fealty to his tribe, and a third who fought to show off. Which had fought in the Way of God? He replied, peace and blessings of God upon him, “The one who fought to make the Word of God uppermost has fought in the Way of God.”[4] Is the nature of the current campaign working to make the Word of God uppermost? Every Muslim needs to ask that question.

As Muslims, we are carrying the Word of God in an increasingly secular, militarized, and alienated world. What it means to carry that word is not an unknowable abstraction. We carry it by following the concrete example of our Noble Messenger Muhammad, peace and blessings of God upon him. In carrying the word, he endured unimaginable abuses and he persevered through them because he was inspired by a grand vision. That vision was to see his people saved by the life-giving, life-affirming message of Islam. No greater illustration of this can be given than the story of his expulsion from the city of Ta’if, after the arrogant leaders of that town unleashed the fools, slaves, and children against him.

In the aftermath of that onslaught, the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, humbly raised his hands towards the sky and prayed:

O, God! Unto you alone do I plead my lack of strength, the paucity of my efforts, and my humiliation before the people. O, the Most Merciful of all! You are the Lord of the oppressed, you are my Lord. Unto who have you dispatched me? To a distant host who receives me repugnantly? Or to an enemy you have authorized over my affair? If you are not angry with me, I care not. It is only your goodness I seek to be covered with. I seek refuge with the Light of your Face, through which the darkness is illuminated and all the affairs of the world and hereafter are rectified, that you do not cast your anger down on me, nor cause your wrath to settle upon me. There is neither strength, nor power but with You. [5]

Two significant events are then related after this prayer was uttered by the Prophet, peace and blessing of God upon him. First of all, when presented with an offer by the Angels that God crush the city of Ta’if, the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, refused saying that perhaps from the offspring of the offending hosts, there would emerge those who would worship God. This incident is well known. A lesser known incident associated with the journey to Ta’if occurred when the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, was preparing to reenter Mecca, in the company of his companion Zaid bin Haritha. Zaid asked, “How can you reenter their presence when they have expelled you?” The Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, replied, “O, Zaid! God is bringing about through these events you have witnessed a great opening. God is most capable of assisting His religion, and manifesting the truth of His prophet.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the current campaign to “Assist the Prophet,” for many converts, like this writer, is the implicit assumption that there is no da’wah work being undertaken here in the West, and no one is currently, or will in the future enter Islam in these lands. Therefore, it does not matter what transpires in the Muslim East. Muslims can behave in the most barbaric fashion, murder, plunder, pillage, brutalize and kidnap civilians, desecrate the symbols of other religions, trample on their honor, discard their values and mores, and massacre their fellow Muslims. If any of that undermines the works of Muslims in these Western lands, it does not matter. If it places a barrier between the Western people and Islam, when many of those people are in the most desperate need of Islam, it does not matter. If our Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, had responded to those who abused him in Ta’if with similar disregard, none of the generations of Muslims who have come from the descendants of those transgressors would have seen the light of day.

These campaigns of desperation also implicitly display a lack of confidence in God’s ability to protect his religion and defend the honor of His Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him. We should do what we can do within lawful limits, and then we depute the affair to God. When we despair of help from God and find ourselves with limited strategic resources, we sometimes press forward with the most desperate tactics imaginable, taking little time to assess the compatibility of those tactics with Islamic teachings, or their long-term implications for the cause of Islam, especially in the West.

There are certainly more constructive and productive ways to defend the honor of the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him. Why are we calling for a “Day of Outrage” when our Prophet has instructed us repeatedly not to become angry? There are surely times when we should become angry for the sake of God. However, under the current circumstances, are anger and outrage appropriate responses? Why not a “Day of Familiarization,” where we teach people who the Prophet was and what he really represents, peace and blessings of God upon him? Why not a “Day of Sunnah,” where we all vow to revive a Sunnah we have allowed to slip away from our religious life. Such a day could also include the Sunnah of showing concern for ones neighbors? We could visit them and tell them about Islam and our beloved Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him.

Whatever we do, as Muslims in the West, we may be approaching the day when we will have to "go it alone." If our coreligionists in the East cannot respect the fact that we are trying to accomplish things here in the West, and that their oftentimes ill-considered actions undermine that work in many instances, then it will be hard for us to consider them allies. How can one be an ally when he fails to consult you concerning actions whose negative consequences you will suffer? No one from the Muslim east consults us before launching these campaigns. No one seeks to find out as to how their actions are going to affect our lives and families. The confused incompetence of the Muslim countries around the issue of moon-sighting, a situation that has painful consequences for Muslims here in America is bad enough, the added pressure generated by these reoccurring crises is becoming unbearable for many.

We have a generation of Muslim children here who have to go to schools where most of them are small minorities facing severe peer pressure. During these crises they do not have the luxury of losing themselves in a frenzied mob. Their faith is challenged and many decide to simply stop identifying with Islam. Is that what they deserve? If they are largely lost to Islam, what is the future of our religion here? We have obedient, pious Hijab wearing women, who out of necessity must work, usually in places where they are the only Muslims. Should their safety, dignity, and honor be jeopardized by the actions of Muslims halfway around the world?

I reiterate that I am not saying these cartoons, and other denigrations of our religion and our Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, should be totally ignored. Imam Shafi’i stated that anyone who is angered and does not respond; he is a jackass. However, our responses should be weighed on the basis of a strategic calculus we construct. Their timing should be determined by that calculus, not by media sensationalizing. They should be undertaken in consultation with those who will be directly affected by the responses they generate. And their long-range implications should be deeply considered.
In conclusion, one should not see the ongoing crisis as a clash of civilizations. Phenomena as deep and complex as civilizations cannot be thrown into conflict overnight by media-driven campaigns. A clash of civilizations would also involve the overwhelming majority of people identified by a particular civilizational nexus. The current crisis is the result of a regrettable incident that has been exploited by an uncivilized minority of provocateurs both in the West and the East to advance their conflicting agendas. As long as that exploitation continues, the crisis could aptly be called the clash of the uncivilized.

[url=http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=92]Zaytuna.org[/url]

[size=9]
[1] We say appropriately because the measured response of the Danish Muslim community killed the story. Certainly part of the defense of the Prophet’s honor is to keep these images out of the media. The initial response of the Danish Muslims did just that.

[2] The Danish flag prominently displays a cross, the symbol of Christianity. Hence, every time a Danish flag is burned or trampled on, the symbol of Christianity is desecrated. A similar transgression against Islam would occur if the Saudi flag, which contains the Name of Allah, and the declaration of Tawhid La ilaha illa Allah were burned or trampled. The question here is has the entirety of Christendom transgressed against the Muslim people in a way to justify an attack on the symbol of their faith?

[3] Protestors in Britain this past Friday threatened suicide bombing attacks in European cities, and the beheading of the offending cartoonists. Insightfully, the British Muslim youth protesting wearing a mock suicide bomber’s vest turned out to be a convicted heroin and crack dealer, out on parole. It is a lot easier to mobilize the Muslim youth for the anti-cartoon Jihad than to deal with the rising rates of incarceration, mental illness, failing schools, dysfunctional homes, and the drug addition and alcoholism that are ravaging the British Muslim community.

[4] Al-Bukhari, no. 7458, and Muslim, no. 1904.

[5] This prayer and the incident precipitating it are related in the various books of Prophetic biography, both ancient and modern. It is quoted here from Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti, Fiqh as-Sirah (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 2001/1422), pp. 150-151.
[/size]

"LION" wrote:

Beast just because I am not ur standard joe blog forum member... doesn't mean I'm not entirely accurate with my facts,...

I have no reason to appease or impress anyone at all especially you lot..

Fair enough.

"LION" wrote:

LISTEN we all got off on the wrong foot... I just didn't like the way beast and 100woman have an opinion on me when I was merely sharing my views albeit somewhat unacceptable to the pacifistic nature of this forum... if i do not conform to your idiotic standard doesn't mean I'm lying...

Okay.

"LION" wrote:

So either go to hell or just chill out..

Now we're making friends.

"LION" wrote:

AND JUST FOR YOUR INFO I AM A LAWYER BY TRADE ...I RUN A VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS IN PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT... I AM VERY WELL TRAVELLED ... CONTRARY TO FORUM BELIEF I AM WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED IN MY AREA AND AMONGST MY PEERS...

Property eh... Ever heard of Hale & Dorr/WilmerHale by any chance?

"LION" wrote:

I have a temper and am outspoken ....

Is that so...

"LION" wrote:

I have many claims to fame..

A full package of double stuffed oreos in under ten minutes - beat that.

"LION" wrote:

Had my article published, been on a party political broadcast, have 100% success record in court and in police station duty solicitor work (undesirable work awkward long hours) and in my current work, have fought in the european championships freestyle kickboxing in 98, have travelled extensively china x4, saudi x5, dubai x2, us, africa, europe, too name but a few, I was the youngest man to have managed 5 bank branches as a manager in uk.. ALHUMDULILLAH i have excelled in everything I have done to date.. and financially im secure and have and am making others secure also by the grace of ALLah.

lol you've obviously not got a very extensive court record.

Incidentally - can you walk on water?

"LION" wrote:

and if u dont believe me ... I COULDN'T CARE LESS..

Okay.

"LION" wrote:

Im on here for a laugh... and its nice to talk interact with others... especially talking about islam... but u lot spendt ime bickering with each other... about others opinions

Well don't worry.. i'm sure you'll get lot's of laughs.

"LION" wrote:

any way... good luck.. im not here for long as i have a very busy period in my calender in the forthcoming weeks

Regale us.

"LION" wrote:

P.S. all muslim sisters and brothers... IF U NEED ANY HELP IN LEGAL MATTERS AND/OR FINANCIAL MATTERS I'LL BE HAPPY TO HELP...

I'm not a muslim but hey maybe you can help me out with a property law question - I can't find ANYWHERE online that gives me a decent explanation of the origins of the "Common Lands" in Britain. It's all stuf from the code of Justinian, but as i'm sure you're away Common Lands came from premonarchal agrarian culture in Britain... is there any point in British history that it was codified law - or did it just become the law through common law?

Salam

4796.5 demonstrators gathered in London to protest the publication of cartoons.

Do they have nothing better to do on a Saturday ? Its only cartoons.

I wonder what they will do when Disney releases the movie.

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article... Mail[/url]

Omrow

ok LION.

Calling the forum idiotic does not help. you should know that.

everyone here is to share their views. so let them. If someone was preconcptions about you, defeat the preconception, not the person.

You may be respected in real life, ut this is only a forum. everyone is equal. I allows others to have a voice. because of that I have to make sure peope are not bullied about their opinions. Well not more than necessary.

Because of that I like the people here to use manners, and like in real life think before they post.

I am sure in real life you pay more care to what you say. do the same here.

and all this personality stuff is getting in the way of actual discussion...

"Beast" wrote:

[size=18]Clash of the Uncivilized: Insights on the Cartoon Controversy[/size]
[size=15][b]By Imam Zaid Shakir[/b][/size]

here's another good article which i've also put up on the website:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703496,00.html

Sh'vua Tov!

[img]http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/774/sgolfcourse2ci.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5161/pingulove4mz.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5858/auroraborealisigloo8hv.jpg[/img]

Beast,

I take issue with a couple of points in that article. One is the emphasis on dawah as a reason not to be violent. That might be a motivation, but it is a rubbish reason and only confirms fears of ulterior motives for moderation. It is as flawed as the suggestion that the cartoons should not be published for fear of ramifications, if in fact the point is that they are disrespectful. I tend to judge the honesty of an argument based on whether there is a singular reason or just an onslaught of possibly persuasive rubbish, such as complaints that one cannot ridicule the holocaust, when obviously a decent human being won't ridicule a genocide but might think it acceptable to challenge religious norms.

In my view there were two offensive cartoons. One seemed to turn a halo around Mohammed into devil's horns, and I would class it as possibly just within the bounds of acceptibility but offensive nonetheless, the other showed a bomb in his turban. If there were a way of making that message specific to jihadis it would be justified, because that does encapsulate what they represent, but it was offensive to Muslims. The other cartoons were innocuous. A good response would be to boycott that newspaper, just as I won't buy The Independent, partially because they are so sanctimonious and their reporting often lacks balance, partly because of Fisk's unwithdrawn libels about Jenin, but primarily after they published a cartoon of Sharon eating a baby, which has traditional antisemitic connotations of which the cartoonist will be aware, referencing the infamous blood libels. So I just don't buy that paper full stop.

I also take issue with the notion of a jihad of ideas. Most people, or at least civilised people, don't contextualise their ideas as warfare, and if there is no jihad for these ideas there is no jihad against them.

I note the article heavily posits an 'other', and considers it 'nefarious'.

Otherwise as a call for civility the article is measured and makes some strong points, but it is tarnished.

LION,

It is really obvious you are childishly easily offended and just possetted all over this thread.

"LION" wrote:

just because I am not ur standard joe blog forum member...

Don't be presumptuous. For all I care you're Kofi Annan, you're Joe Bloggs.

"LION" wrote:

LISTEN we all got off on the wrong foot... I just didn't like the way beast and 100woman have an opinion on me when I was merely sharing my views albeit somewhat unacceptable to the pacifistic nature of this forum... if i do not conform to your idiotic standard doesn't mean I'm lying...

"LISTEN"? Come off it! What a shame you have to be successful but that you think it's an insult to call me 100woman. I disagreed strongly with you, I found your opinions unpalatable is all. You absolutely need to learn humility. We are all outspoken, we are all special, distinctive voices, it is no excuse.

And I wouldn't say 'pacifistic' is a good description of the forum. Just, not angry and antagonistic. The end result for the world could be peace or an almighty war with winners and losers, or bits of both. If there's a war I shall take a judgement on what I stand up and fight for, and peace would be best. I just wanted to get that specific.

"LION" wrote:

So either go to hell or just chill out..

OK.

"LION" wrote:

AND JUST FOR YOUR INFO I AM A LAWYER BY TRADE ...I RUN A VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS IN PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT... I AM VERY WELL TRAVELLED ... CONTRARY TO FORUM BELIEF I AM WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED IN MY AREA AND AMONGST MY PEERS...

I have told Admin I would try not to get too personal so I won't.

"LION" wrote:

I have a temper and am outspoken ....

"Augustus" wrote:

Is that so...

"LION" wrote:

I have many claims to fame..

Had my article published, been on a party political broadcast, have 100% success record in court and in police station duty solicitor work (undesirable work awkward long hours) and in my current work, have fought in the european championships freestyle kickboxing in 98, have travelled extensively china x4, saudi x5, dubai x2, us, africa, europe, too name but a few, I was the youngest man to have managed 5 bank branches as a manager in uk.. ALHUMDULILLAH i have excelled in everything I have done to date.. and financially im secure and have and am making others secure also by the grace of ALLah.

"LION" wrote:

I COULDN'T CARE LESS..

Ditto. This isn't a business network or a motivational seminar. I have never seen someone brag quite like that on these forums, but several of us certainly could.

"LION" wrote:

Im on here for a laugh... and its nice to talk interact with others... especially talking about islam... but u lot spendt ime bickering with each other... about others opinions

Actually you came on here with opinions. You made that up. I won't be recommending your legal services to Muslims or anyone.

"LION" wrote:

any way... good luck.. im not here for long as i have a very busy period in my calender in the forthcoming weeks

Good.

"LION" wrote:

P.S. all muslim sisters and brothers... IF U NEED ANY HELP IN LEGAL MATTERS AND/OR FINANCIAL MATTERS I'LL BE HAPPY TO HELP...

You sound dubious.

"[url=http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55922&highlight=#... wrote:

LION[/url]"]100MAN.... SINCE UR A non-Muslim, U WILL NOT FEEL THE ANGUISH US MUSLIMS FEEL, THE ANGER, THE SADNESS, THE DISTRESS

HENCE WE MUST DO SOMETHING TO DEFEND THE BELOVED PROPHET OF ALLAH OTHERWISE WE FEEL GUILTY AND ASHAMED..

I can empathise and you are mistaken on all counts. The second paragraph doesn't follow from the first. Perhaps you accidentally edited out an intelligent point.

"[url=http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55922&highlight=#... wrote:

LION[/url]"]WE MUSLIMS ARE A BROTHERHOOD AND MUST UNITE AND ACT ACCORDINGLY IN UNITY TO ACHIEVE SUCCESS IN OUR ENDEAVOURS

In what endeavours? A moment ago this was about a specific issue, now you want all Muslims to unite. It is exactly the typical jihadi assertion that Muslims must support them or go to hell. Is that your position?

"[url=http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55922&highlight=#... wrote:

LION[/url]"]So a protest is just that and its perfectly LEGAL..

Again, doesn't follow. But noone suggested a protest is illegal.

"[url=http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55922&highlight=#... wrote:

LION[/url]"]And 100MAN i know its not by the danish embassy and UK hasn't done anything by way of printing the offensive material in question ( YES 100MAN IT IS OFFENSIVE).. but WE'RE NOT PROTESTING AGAINST THE UK U FOOL... ITS THE EUROPEAN PAPERS THAT ARE...

I can be a fool but I think my point in this case is pretty strong. Last week's protests certainly didn't make that clear, and I think the only really positive thing about this week's is how well conducted it was with a clear message demarcating good Muslims from troublemakers. Then you come and muddy the distinction.

"[url=http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55922&highlight=#... wrote:

LION[/url]"]LOL 100man u make me laugh... love to meet u, maybe we can go out with the lads and have a good old chinny wag.. ur views will go down well

That is a very thuggish thing to say. You have a nasty mentality. Admin, sorry about that last line but I felt it was a response and not an ad hominem.

[size=11]*EDIT: Images adjusted upon request *[/size]

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Beast" wrote:

[size=18]Clash of the Uncivilized: Insights on the Cartoon Controversy[/size]
[size=15][b]By Imam Zaid Shakir[/b][/size]

here's another good article which i've also put up on the website:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703496,00.html

I can't believe I missed it. :roll:

"Beast" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Beast" wrote:

[size=18]Clash of the Uncivilized: Insights on the Cartoon Controversy[/size]
[size=15][b]By Imam Zaid Shakir[/b][/size]

here's another good article which i've also put up on the website:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703496,00.html

I can't believe I missed it. :roll:

easy mistake.

:twisted:

"Admin" wrote:

"Beast" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

here's another good article which i've also put up on the website:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703496,00.html

I can't believe I missed it. :roll:

easy mistake.

:twisted:

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/confused/confused0090.gif[/img]

"*DUST*" wrote:

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/confused/confused0090.gif[/img]

look at author on newsblog.

"Admin" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/confused/confused0090.gif[/img]

look at author on newsblog.

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/confused/confused0007.gif[/img]
[size=7]all i noticed is that someone changed the categories i'd put the article in (same as irfs) and that admin has added the texan muslim docu to multimedia (thanx, still need to figure that out)...[/size]

100, nice pics, but wot is the point of placing em here? the green one is stretching the thread...

Pleased you asked but I'm going out. Has to do with Sh'vua Tov, I'll explain later.

"100man" wrote:

Pleased you asked but I'm going out. Has to do with Sh'vua Tov, I'll explain later.

[size=7]i was hoping ud resize/link or delete the big one...[/size]

I like the big one!

Urubamba valley right? I've been there!

Hey 100 I need you to answer a question on Judaism for me.

When you say "hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one!" are you saying that to the nation of Israel (as opposed to the state) or are you saying that to Jacob, or as a reflection of what his sons said to him?

"Augustus" wrote:

I like the big one!

lol i know its very pretty, but it also happens to be stretching this page...

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

I like the big one!

lol i know its very pretty, but it also happens to be stretching this page...

? No it's not...

"Augustus" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

I like the big one!

lol i know its very pretty, but it also happens to be stretching this page...

? No it's not...

well i'm on my laptop, ur screen is probably bigger?

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

I like the big one!

lol i know its very pretty, but it also happens to be stretching this page...

? No it's not...

well i'm on my laptop, ur screen is probably bigger?

Screen size makes a difference?!

"Augustus" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

I like the big one!

lol i know its very pretty, but it also happens to be stretching this page...

? No it's not...

well i'm on my laptop, ur screen is probably bigger?

Screen size makes a difference?!

Its stretching my page too..........

This doesn't make any sense - i thought it just adjusted to your screen...

that's what [url=http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/DaveHamilton/Sn.jpg]mine[/url] is doing...

Hell i've got enough room to fit the pictures and watch Aladdin at the same time

[size=18][b]Message to the Mod’s[/b][/size]

Spammers (right wing loonies and fascist) are signing up to Islamic forums and posting blasphemous images of all prophets (I wont describe them- my only reaction was to break something expensive)- this happened on my forum- be alert.

"Augustus" wrote:

Hell i've got enough room to fit the pictures and watch Aladdin at the same time

Aladdin? How old are you again?

What students do to pass time is amazing- :roll:

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"Augustus" wrote:

Hell i've got enough room to fit the pictures and watch Aladdin at the same time

Aladdin? How old are you again?

What students do to pass time is amazing- :roll:

It's an awesome (completely legally acquired) flipping movie!!!

...and nobody wants to play basketball today.

Damn cowards.

[b]Uproar over cartoons fosters understanding [/b]

12 Feb 2006.

Both sides of the cartoon controversy know more about each other than they did last month

What we have is "not a clash of civilizations but a clash of ignorance." That's what the Aga Khan, spiritual leader of Ismaili Muslims, told me last year. He might as well have been talking about the cartoon controversy.
In that interview, he said: "You can be an educated person in the Judeo-Christian world and know nothing — I mean, nothing — about the Islamic world.

"The presumption in democracies is that the electorate is capable of commenting on major issues of national or international importance, and that our leaders are educated in the subject matters that they need to know about in order to lead.

"So, unless there is a better understanding of the Islamic world, democracies are not going to be able to express themselves on Islamic issues."

Even as the Danish drawings of the Prophet Muhammad have led to another clash of cultures, we may be seeing the beginning of mutual understanding.

Both sides certainly know a lot more about each other than they did two weeks ago.

The prohibition on the depiction of Muhammad is understood, if not fully accepted.

Non-Muslims know that Muslims take offence at insults to their Prophet, all too easily from the Western perspective.

There is a growing realization that freedom of speech is circumscribed by laws of libel, hate and religious freedom, and also self-restraint dictated by such subjective considerations as to whether or not words or drawings may be gratuitously insulting or morally reprehensible.
A consensus is emerging, certainly in Canada and even the U.S. (where they routinely push the limits of freedom), that the Jyllands-Posten episode had an aura of juvenile bravado to it.
This became clearer when an Iranian paper planned anti-Holocaust cartoons. Hoisted on its own petard, Jyllands-Posten said it would reprint them. Fortunately, sanity has prevailed and both have backed off.
The global village has asserted itself, in more ways than one.
With our nations becoming pluralistic, people of different backgrounds are paying heed to the concerns of others: Canadians better than Europeans. Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay did well to echo this Canadian attitude in his statement on the controversy.
Equally, the West and the world of Islam are no longer planets apart. What we say about each other has repercussions, as we have seen.
Internet, text messages, Al-Jazeera and other networks have robbed the West of its monopoly on the world narrative.
Pluralism and globalism together are moving monoculturalists to the margins. The whining you have heard in the past two weeks is their nostalgia for the days when they could say whatever they wanted about Muslims and get away with it.
There is also increasing appreciation that Islamophobia did play a big part in the episode.
Jyllands-Posten and several papers that reprinted the cartoons are openly anti-Muslim.
Some of their defenders share that hate, as a quarter of the 400 reader responses to my columns in the last week testify.
Jyllands-Posten rejected caricatures of Christ three years ago, saying they were too provocative — precisely the grounds on which Muslims have objected to the Muhammad drawings.
Queen Margrethe, no less, is on record as stating there's "something scary" about the "totalitarianism that's part of Islam." And she advocated "resistance."
Turkey's Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said Tuesday hostility towards Muslims is replacing anti-Semitism in the West.
At a panel I participated in Thursday at the U of T, one speaker, an avowed atheist, drew a parallel to the anti-Semitism of the 1930s Germany.
That may be going too far. But a sense of siege is motivating many of the protests around the world. Many leaders, from George W. Bush down, are beginning to understand.
It was no accident that the worst riots were in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Egypt — where Muslims are under the gun in different ways.
Bush did not fool too many by singling out Syria and Iran, while staying mum about the others, where he has a lot to answer for.
The most peaceful Muslim response, so far, has come from Canada and the U.S. — where Muslims enjoy peace and relative equality. In Europe, where they face daily discrimination, they have been more agitated, though still in a peaceful way.
The lesson from this reality is not all that hard to draw.

------

Dust,

I shrunk the green landscape (hope the residents don't mind) and got rid of the cheesy butterfly.

When Shabbat ends we have a short prayer called "Havdallah", "The Distinction", marking the moment of passage from rest and contemplation to the working week. The prayer involves a glass of wine, two candles held so that the flames combine into one, and a container of sweet-smelling spice such as cinammon, which is passed around so everyone can begin the week on a sweet note. The wine is only partially drunk and the remainder extinguishes the candles. In my family we have taken on a custom of using whiskey for havdallah so that when the candles are extinguished in the tray of whiskey, the tray glows aflame for several minutes while we sing some niggunim (melodies) and zemirot (songs), and then we sometimes have a small meal called Melaveh Malkah ("Escorting the (Shabbat) Queen"). On that happy theme I posted the pretty pictures.

Dave,

[url=http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp]Aish on the Shema[/url]; [url=http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm]Full text of the Shema[/url]

"Shema Yisrael" is what the children of Israel (Jacob) said to him, underlining his conviction, when he was about to pass away. So the prayer which begins with these words is a homage and affirmation. However, the full prayer contains passages including and relating to God's commandments and the Torah as a whole, so personally I find it hard not to consider the Shema as though in God's booming voice at Sinai, or as written by Moshe Rabeinu, and of course thoughts of God's message to Am Yisrael are there for the taking.

Good question.

[img]http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1175/koolkanga8ce.jpg[/img]

"100man" wrote:

Dave,

[url=http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp]Aish on the Shema[/url]; [url=http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm]Full text of the Shema[/url]

"Shema Yisrael" is what the children of Israel (Jacob) said to him, underlining his conviction, when he was about to pass away. So the prayer which begins with these words is a homage and affirmation. However, the full prayer contains passages including and relating to God's commandments and the Torah as a whole, so personally I find it hard not to consider the Shema as though in God's booming voice at Sinai, or as written by Moshe Rabeinu, and of course thoughts of God's message to Am Yisrael are there for the taking.

Good question.

[img]http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1175/koolkanga8ce.jpg[/img]

I think I understand - it sounds like you are saying that the full Shema, as a declaration of faith is addressed [i]to God[/i] (directly?). While that part first said by the sons of Jacob carries that as well as draws lines back to your forefathers (like a "Jacob we still believe)

So you're talking to God and Jacob (and all the Jews before you?)

Or am I reading too much into the aish.com description of it's importance in the martyrdom of Jews in the holocaust and the inquisition. I interpreted that as a reminder to Jews to say it in reverence to God and remembrance to those who came before.

- and if I may another question:

(This one is contentious even to Christians)

Did Jacob wrestle with God or an angel?

I think Jacob is my favorite of all the histories in the bible, even God said he loved him (Malachi 1:2+3). - Hey another question, Michael is the advocate of the nation of Israel, was he also the advocate of the [i]person[/i] of Israel (and is that why he's the advocate of the nation of Israel?)

I'm liking the new picture thing btw - really gives some color to our threads!

Ah! I lost a big reply! Well, I was waffling.

We don't pray to people, even the forefathers. The Shema is entirely composed of Torah, so while we do address tefillah to God, we are reciting this at least partly for personal affirmation. As for contemplation of our ancestors during prayer, that is great, but the content of the prayer is the main message. For a proper scholarly response I can ask a Rav, if you like.

Jacob wrestled with an angel [url=http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2... there's more[/url], if you still have questions, again I should probably ask. On [url=http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=560&letter=M]Micha'el[/url]. And now I'm going to click on those myself (rather than clicking first and bluffing). Is that a cheeky answer?

[size=1](btw we are very off-topic and kind of missed Omrow's contribution, I propose putting Judaism questions in No Topic or a light thread and use PM if I don't notice)[/size]

[img]http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4417/google1vh.jpg[/img]