seema,

I'm sure it can be mentioned, but I think if the British dark ages were taught in relation to Islam's Golden Age it would be quite a selective viewpoint, and one might ask why the Great Ages of other faiths are not also being taught. To be honest I don't think it should be on the curriculum, and after all it is one thing to talk of Islamic belief as religion but another to teach Islamic history as history. I would be seriously astounded if our government did such a lame thing as to rewrite the syllabus for Islam's Golden Age.

Why not just attack the issue directly and offer courses on citizenship, or xenophobia?

Stressing the importance of why all britons must remain united, and why fear of new britons is dangerous.

I never understood the dark age.

Wouldn't we in the modern world consider most history pretty dark.

"Constantine" wrote:

Why not just attack the issue directly and offer courses on citizenship, or xenophobia?

Stressing the importance of why all britons must remain united, and why fear of new britons is dangerous.

I don't know how popular that course would be. I daresay it would make a good project for younger children.

"salaf" wrote:

I never understood the dark age.

Wouldn't we in the modern world consider most history pretty dark.

lol

"100man" wrote:

I don't know how popular that course would be. I daresay it would make a good project for younger children.

It's a US thing - but like Enver pointed out before it's part of our "we are all citizens" idea.

You Brits are having a bit of trouble defining yourself in a racially, religiously, and ethnically changing climate.

Which of course is the source of all this strife

"Constantine" wrote:

"100man" wrote:

I don't know how popular that course would be. I daresay it would make a good project for younger children.

It's a US thing - but like Enver pointed out before it's part of our "we are all citizens" idea.

You Brits are having a bit of trouble defining yourself in a racially, religiously, and ethnically changing climate.

Which of course is the source of all this strife

I think there are lots of sources but I would ultimately pin this on an absence of codified social responsibility and a collapse of faith in democracy. That hasn't just come from ethnicities, it is also part of the long-term fallout from the defeat of Communist Russia and the general frustration and blaming that gives rise to hardline socialism, fascism, anarchy and other radical social structures in the first place. I think this discussion we are having, on integration, multiculturalism, the UK etc, is a microcosm of a very important discussion that is taking place globally, and I believe it must end with the affirmation of individual responsibility, compassionate societies and commitment to peace and cohabitation that has for so long looked like an idealistic preserve of radicals. That will mean bringing the public into the political structure so that we are all accountable, and replacing spin with sourced facts. I am pleased to say that both of those are viable objectives.

"100man" wrote:

seema,

I'm sure it can be mentioned, but I think if the British dark ages were taught in relation to Islam's Golden Age it would be quite a selective viewpoint, and one might ask why the Great Ages of other faiths are not also being taught. To be honest I don't think it should be on the curriculum, and after all it is one thing to talk of Islamic belief as religion but another to teach Islamic history as history. I would be seriously astounded if our government did such a lame thing as to rewrite the syllabus for Islam's Golden Age.

is it lame that we are taught about egyptian & roman empires the muslims also had an empire and a history which should also be taught

a little fairness would not only enlighten children but also give them some respect for their muslim classmates - thus building a strong and mutually appreciative multicultural society

It would not be taught in the way you envisage.

Is classical history taught much before A-level?

Oh so you are saying there presently [i]is[/i] a world history course, it simply neglects the history of the Islamic Empire?

That makes sense then... over here we have no world history courses as mandated - it's american history.

Of course I went the private route and had world history anyway...

For some reason I thought it was the international norm to avoid world history

There is an A-level in Islamic Studies.

"100man" wrote:

There is an A-level in Islamic Studies.

That bothers me...

Maybe it's just my American background but any time a government is implimenting a [i]religious[/i] history or religious study into its curriculum - especially on the mandatory education level; I get a little worried.

I don't think they deliberately leave out islamic history.

I never learnt about any non-European history in high school.

Also I don't see the logic of people who say that if you teach islamic history people won't be anti-muslim.

Thats makes about as much sense as people who say we need more Holocaust education to stop anti-semitism.

"salaf" wrote:

I don't think they deliberately leave out islamic history.

I never learnt about any non-European history in high school.

Also I don't see the logic of people who say that if you teach islamic history people won't be anti-muslim.

Thats makes about as much sense as people who say we need more Holocaust education to stop anti-semitism.

The holocaust is not Jewish history in the sense that the 'Golden Age' is Islamic history. It is modern history, and it is a tragic occasion, not a point of pride but a serious climax of antisemitism. The point of holocaust education is that people who may be prone to stereotyping the Jews should know some people support a much bigger antisemitic agenda. The holocaust was a massive event and I don't read kindly into any attempt to undermine holocaust education. It benefits you in that the Jews can be perceived as trying to hijack yet another thing, education, but getting hung up on it costs you the ability to talk openly and honestly about what has happened and to have your contribution taken as a sincere positive input. It is a point drawn from diametric, hostile politics. That is my opinion on the brief inference you made.

salaf i dont know which british schools you went to but in mine pre gcse
we were taught about egyptians and romans until we were blue in the face that kind of thing stays with you - it was very enjoyable i must add
i would have loved the same for the islamic empire which has offered far more to the west then any other civilizations you cant ignore 1000 of islamic history progress in every field from irrigation to pure sciences

a worth of a peoples breeds respect

had i not been taught about the terrible holocaust i would never have understood the need for an Israeli state. My heart bleeds for all those unfortunate people every time i think of what i was taught they have my 100 sympathy you would have to be evil or made of stone not to be moved by the holocaust. being taught it in school means it will stay with me forever never to be forgotten

"seema*" wrote:

salaf i dont know which british schools you went to but in mine pre gcse
we were taught about egyptians and romans until we were blue in the face that kind of thing stays with you - it was very enjoyable i must add
i would have loved the same for the islamic empire which has offered far more to the west then any other civilizations you cant ignore 1000 of islamic history progress in every field from irrigation to pure sciences

a worth of a peoples breeds respect

had i not been taught about the terrible holocaust i would never have understood the need for an Israeli state. My heart bleeds for all those unfortunate people every time i think of what i was taught they have my 100 sympathy you would have to be evil or made of stone not to be moved by the holocaust. being taught it in school means it will stay with me forever never to be forgotten

Well said.

I think you are misguided in thinking that the history of the Islamic empire would be taught with sympathy. I don't see why it should not be a module, though, if it were taught sensitively.

i agree 100man a module would be enough sometimes i went to sleep when we learned of Roman road making - yawn yawn

lol the romans are history's most bureaucratic people ever.

Who conquers the world to build a more effective road system?!

That's weird

"100man" wrote:

The holocaust is not Jewish history in the sense that the 'Golden Age' is Islamic history.

I wasn't refering specifically to the "Golden Age" I meant in terms of people who advocate studying islamic history for the purpopse of curtailing prejudice.

Quote:

It is modern history, and it is a tragic occasion, not a point of pride but a serious climax of antisemitism. The point of holocaust education is that people who may be prone to stereotyping the Jews should know some people support a much bigger antisemitic agenda.

The first stereotypes of jews I was ever introduced to was in the context of Holocaust education (e.g. Hitler killed the jews because he believed they were greedy..........) and I imagine that's the case for most children in this country.

Also I think thats very disingenious reasoning that I imagine you wouldn't
use in other contexts. Its like Christopher Hitchens telling an African American guy on C-SPAN that he shouldn't be against the war because David Duke (ex-KKK leader) is as well. I doubt very much that changed the callers mind because its such ridiculous reasoning. Should Michael Howard be pro-immigration because Hitler (who killed members of his family) was anti-immigration.

Quote:

The holocaust was a massive event and I don't read kindly into any attempt to undermine holocaust education. It benefits you in that the Jews can be perceived as trying to hijack yet another thing, education, but getting hung up on it costs you the ability to talk openly and honestly about what has happened and to have your contribution taken as a sincere positive input. It is a point drawn from diametric, hostile politics. That is my opinion on the brief inference you made.

I didn't say anything about cost or its value I just questioned the idea that without it children are going to become anti-semitic. In fact I think that idea itself is pretty racist.

seema,

I don't remember learning about Romans in GCSE history, although I'm sure it came up in Latin classes and certainly in primary school. GCSE history is incredibly sterile, though. In fact I think most education is, and the response of the government has included a lot of dumbing down. Ideally schooling should be based around a magnificent library, teaching as support and assistance, and pupils should choose their own approaches to a number of mudules and take computerised tests to determine when they can move on the a more advanced study of a given topic. I think education is in a bad way, totally focused on uniformity of knowledge and bloc results, with the upshot that people fail to educate themselves and be part of the system, or do so very badly, or get to enjoying the game of meeting requirements with minimal exertion. Very few are inspired or focused on the future throughout their education, and that is because of this stale, beauraucratic, overcrowded teaching, and all this arbitrary testing by age group.

"salaf" wrote:

Also I think thats very disingenious reasoning that I imagine you wouldn't use in other contexts. Its like Christopher Hitchens telling an African American guy on C-SPAN that he shouldn't be against the war because David Duke (ex-KKK leader) is as well. I doubt very much that changed the callers mind because its such ridiculous reasoning. Should Michael Howard be pro-immigration because Hitler (who killed members of his family) was anti-immigration.

No way is that a correct comparison. It is nothing about pro- or anti-, it is about knowing what Hitler's political movement did. They make sure to teach you about the autobahn as well, although that seems like a pretty pointless attempt at balance. Do you or don't you believe that the holocaust was acceptable in Germany because of antisemitic prejudice?

"salaf" wrote:

Quote:

The holocaust was a massive event and I don't read kindly into any attempt to undermine holocaust education. It benefits you in that the Jews can be perceived as trying to hijack yet another thing, education, but getting hung up on it costs you the ability to talk openly and honestly about what has happened and to have your contribution taken as a sincere positive input. It is a point drawn from diametric, hostile politics. That is my opinion on the brief inference you made.

I didn't say anything about cost or its value I just questioned the idea that without it children are going to become anti-semitic. In fact I think that idea itself is pretty racist.

I didn't say that, you are listening too much to your complex flights of fancy.

Quote:

No way is that a correct comparison. It is nothing about pro- or anti-, it is about knowing what Hitler's political movement did. They make sure to teach you about the autobahn as well, although that seems like a pretty pointless attempt at balance.

I was taught about it in primary school at a time when I didn't even know what politics was. The autobahn reference is ridiculous because I rarely learnt about it in the wider context of German history. Anyway you're contradicting what you said earlier about kids (who for some reason have developed anti-semitic feelings at avery young age) being educated about what anti-semitism leads to.

Quote:

Do you or don't you believe that the holocaust was acceptable in Germany because of antisemitic prejudice?

I haven't said anything about the Holocaust in terms of historical facts. Why would you ask me that?

Quote:

I didn't say that, you are listening too much to your complex flights of fancy.

You said I was trying to undermine holocaust education.

True. I apologise. Whether that was your intention or not, that was the effect of your comparison.

Quote:

kids (who for some reason have developed anti-semitic feelings at avery young age)

What I was calling flights of fancy. I never suggested that for a moment. I wonder what your view on education must be if you believe it is all about confronting indoctrination.

Quote:

The point of holocaust education is that people who may be prone to stereotyping the Jews should know some people support a much bigger antisemitic agenda.

How many nine year old kids do you think are prone to stereotyping jews in this country?

And the point that if anti-semitic people know what Hitler did they'll become less anti-semitic is absurd. In some cases it may actually embolden them.

My personal view is that genocide shouldn't be taught to children as a subject because it's unethical. I also don't think learning about goes anyway towards making it less likely. People don't become genocidal because they're unaware that it hurts people.

Quote:

How many nine year old kids do you think are prone to stereotyping jews in this country?

I've no idea, it's a stupid question. So is your next point, and so is your next. The subject is taught in the context of empathy. I don't see why you would oppose holocaust education.

"100man" wrote:

I don't see why you would oppose holocaust education.

I'm not against the holocaust or any event being taught in a historical context for the purpose of informing students.

I'm just against teaching subjects for the purpose of indoctrination through horror.

Firstly because I think its unethical especially with young children. Secondly because it doesn't work. Racism isn't decreased towards black people in America on account of their being known to have suffered slavery.

Quote:

Racism isn't decreased towards black people in America on account of their being known to have suffered slavery.

So historical slavery should not be taught? As a result of that education there is more empathy, and less racism. Quite possibly, and judging from seema's remark, that is also the result of teaching about the holocaust. Why do you believe that WWII should be taught without reference to Hitler's extermination of six million Jews? I am not satisfied that it is because you believe doing so is antagonistic or pointless or in any way unethical.

"100man" wrote:

So historical slavery should not be taught? As a result of that education there is more empathy, and less racism. Quite possibly, and judging from seema's remark, that is also the result of teaching about the holocaust.

So you're saying that people should be indoctrinated through Holocaust education?

Slavery is taught but as part of American history. Not because it's expected to decrease racism.

Quote:

Why do you believe that WWII should be taught without reference to Hitler's extermination of six million Jews? I am not satisfied that it is because you believe doing so is antagonistic or pointless or in any way unethical.

I clearly didn't say that.

"salaf" wrote:

I'm not against the holocaust or any event being taught in a historical context for the purpose of informing students.

"salaf" wrote:

Slavery is taught but as part of American history. Not because it's expected to decrease racism.

Great. I agree, with teaching history.

Quote:

Quote:

Why do you believe that WWII should be taught without reference to Hitler's extermination of six million Jews? I am not satisfied that it is because you believe doing so is antagonistic or pointless or in any way unethical.

I clearly didn't say that.

"salaf" wrote:

I'm not against the holocaust or any event being taught in a historical context for the purpose of informing students.

Then we agree. I did mention that the point of holocaust education was to bring a more complete education to others who are prone to antisemitic beliefs, but I will put that in the context of your initial comparison:

"salaf" wrote:

Also I don't see the logic of people who say that if you teach islamic history people won't be anti-muslim.

Thats makes about as much sense as people who say we need more Holocaust education to stop anti-semitism.

I initially took this to mean that teaching about the holocaust does not have a positive impact on empathy, and that teaching about the holocaust is quite unnecessary. It may be that this conversation has been my misunderstanding of your comments.

Well you still seem to be suggesting that the Holocaust should be taught in order to make people think a certain way. Thats bordering on mind control in my opinion.

Why can't you just teach kids that racism and killing is wrong. I don't see how using pictures and films to scare them (with the assumed hope that this will make them not be anti-semitic) is any different from what they do with children in Totalitarian states.