have you presented evidence agaisnt the accusations about ahmad raza ?

Ahmad Raza
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Ahmad Raza, (1856-1921), Articles which may be biased,
Imām Aĥmed RiĎā Khān al-Barelwī was born in 1272 AH / 1856 AD in Bareilly, a flourishing city in northern India and in a family of scholars; his father Mawlānā Naqī Áli Khān was a prominent Ahl as-Sunnah scholar of his time. He studied Islamic sciences mainly in the tutelage of his father, though a few other scholars have also been mentioned
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As you can see it is hard to obtain evidence that is objective and free from biases many give great descriptions of Ahmad Raza without evidence

Devotional Islam and Politics in British India author: Usha Sanyal gives a 'neutral' view on the Deobandi-Barelwi conflict too and also absolves Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Riza Khan rahmatullah alayhi of charges against him made by, for example, some 'Salafis' of today and some Deobandis, that he was a Shia or pro-British. It details his deep learning, piety, fairness, moderation and his general attitudes to the politics of his time . It also has a good section on how his followers developed after he passed onto Allah Ta'ala. The style is somewhat dry and academic but that is to be expected in an academic study which is what this is after all. I advise anyone who wants to know more about Ahmad Raza to obtain this book.

03. 05. 2004
FATWA - An Instrument of Ulema Politics in India?
by R.Upadhyay
Fatawa are viewed as Sharia in action and they are all rooted in the Islamic scriptures like Quran and Hadith. But in absence of any supreme authority in Islam except the Prophet whose fatwa cannot be challenged, it may not be practicable for all the Muslims to abide by them all the time and to live a life following all dictates of fatawa.
Since the original texts of Islamic scriptures are in Arabic language and do not have similar translation, there are lot of scope for subjective interpretation by the Islamic jurists with radical political attitude. The voluminous fatawa referred to are therefore, basically the man made interpretations of Islamic scriptures which sometime create confusion among the followers of these "holy decrees".

Sectarian divisions in Muslim society like Shia, Sunni, Ismailis, Barelwi and Deobandi are the outcome of variations interpretations. The collections of fatawa compiled by prominent Ulema are regarded as All India Reporter of Supreme Court but their applications are not binding on all the Muslims due to such sectarian division. Differences over fatawa often turn into factional war within Muslim society. During factional fight they abuse each other as Kafir. They however, forget to explain as to how all the Muslims will face the trial on the day of judgment when their fatawa accuse each other as Kafirs.

Roughly 85 to 90 percent of Indian Muslims are Sunnis. Of them two third are known to be the followers of Barelavi school of Islam and the rest is divided in other Sunni schools like Deobandi and Ahle Hadith. Fatawa of Ahmad Riza Khan (1856-1921) founder of Barelavi school of Sunnism are compiled in Fatawa-i-Rizvia. It is the most important collections of fatawa for Brelavis whereas Mufti Kifayatullah ke Fatawi (the collections of the fatawa of Mufti Kifayatullah,) is the prominent source of fatawa for the followers of Deobandis.

Ahmad Riza, in his fatwa denounced the Deobandis as Kafirs and condemned them for accepting the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi during freedom movement. He denounced the Muslims joining hands with Kafirs (non-believers) even for attaining Islamic objective like movement for restoration of Caliphate. His fatwa warned the Muslims neither to attend to the ailing non-Muslims nor to participate in their funerals. His aversion with Deobandis is reflected in Fatwa-i-Rizvia, which "[b]declares Deobandis as Kafirs and he who doubts that they are Kafirs is also Kafir" (The World of Fatawas by Arun Shourie, 1995, Page 646). It also declares that the books and belief of Deobandis are worse than those of Hindus.[/b] His (Riza) fatwa denounced those Muslims as Kafirs, who joined hands with non-believers even for Islamic objectives [b](The World Of Fatawas by Arun Shourie, 1995).[/b]Deobandi opponents of Ahmad Riza on the other hand condemned celebrating urs (Anniversary of Islamic saints) on the plea that it is polytheism. Deobandi Muslims are against the saint worship of Sufi Pirs on the plea that it is un-Islamic whereas Baleravi Muslims give great importance to the grave of Pirs and celebrate urs (anniversary) with much fan fare. Deobandis argue that there is no saint in Islam except the Prophet. Mufti Kifayatullah issued a fatwa that offerings at grave are Haram (Un-Islamic). He denounced the observance of urs and disputed the fatwa of Ahmad Riza Khan. Deobandis are adamant is purifying Islam from any influence of Hindu tradition. Of late Darul Uloom of Deoband issued a fatwa in support of ban on cow slaughtering. The Barelavi Muslims who constitute a larger majority in the community may not pay any heed to this fatwa.
The fatwa of Ahmad Riza Khan against joining hands with Kafirs even in movement for achieving Islamic objective like restoration of Caliphate or the fatwa of Mufti Kifayatullah, that shaving beard was un-Islamic created direct or indirect majority-phobia in the mind of Muslim masses during freedom movement.

A vast majority of uneducated Muslims totally depend upon the local Imams for their day to day worldly problems and accept the fatwa as an Islamic verdict and not simply as advice. Fatawa provide a means by which Muslim community can deal with new issues as and when they arise ([b]Muslim Friends: Their Faith and Feeling by Roland E. Miller, 2000, page 279-80).[/b]

MUSLIM REVIVALIST MOVEMENTS
Mention should perhaps also be made here of what might be called "revivalist" Islamic movements, that is to say, to a few movements that are both anti-modernist (contra the Aligarh modernist-separatist Anglo-Islam) as well as anti-nationalist (contra the Deoband "protestant" reformist-accomodationist Anglo-Islam). These would include the anti-modernist and anti-reformist Islam of Ahmad Riza Khan (l856 - l92l) of Bareilly (in North India), founder of the conservative Barelwis, who wanted to maintain the traditional rituals and customs of the Indo-Islamic era. Also included would be the anti-modernist and transnationalist Islam of Sayyid Abul 'Ala Maududi (l903-79), founder of the conservative Jama'at-i Islami ("Islamic Society"), which rejected the ideology of the nation-state, whether Islamic or non-Islamic. There is also the Tablighi Jama'at (the "Missionary Society"), founded in l927 by Muhammad Ilyas (l885 - l944), an anti-political and pietistic revivalist Islam prominent in the Punjab region in India but popular as well in Pakistan, Southeast Asia and the Middle East.
Finally, there is the messianic and heretical Ahmadiyah movement, founded in the Punjab by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (l835 - l908) who proclaimed himself to be al-Mahdi (the "guided one" or messiah) in the last decade of the nineteenth century. The movement has not made much headway among Muslims generally because of the heretical claims of the founder, but it has found a favorable hearing in some parts of Africa and among Black Muslims in the United States. All of these "revivalist" movements have in common that they cannot be called either "Anglo-Islamic" or "Neo-Muslim." They represent one or another attempt to revive an older, largely pre-modern Indo-Islamic tradition.

BARAILWIS : HISTORY AND BELIEFS
[b]By Shaykh Ehsaan Elahi Zaheer Rahimahullaah
Dr Abdullah, Idara Tarjuman Al Sunnah, 4th Edition, 1986 [/b]
The Bareilawis belong to a sect which is among the sects of the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent belonging to the Hanafi school of law. This name is applied to them for their attribution to their eponym, the promoter of their word, the founder if their bases, and expounder of their principles and foundations, Ahmad Rida, the Bareilawi, who was born in Bareilly, a city in India in the province of Uttar Pradesh.
This sect is distinguished by this name from other Hanafi sects existing in the subcontinent, like the Deobandis, Nadawis, Tawhidis and others.
It is said that he was deeply dark, having a murky colour. His opponents used to condemn him on account of the darkness of his face. A scholar produced a book in refutation of his ideas. He named this book, 'al tin al lazib ala al aswad al kadhib' (sticking clay on the dark liar).
Sometimes he uttered words that were not worthy of a common man, much less of a man to whom learning and leadership have been attributed. This habit was so much deep rotted in him that his friends and advocates of his beliefs and thoughts were forced to say, 'He was hard headed and callous to his opponents. He did not take any care required by the Sharia' [b][Hayat Ala Hadrat, p.211][/b]
The Bareilawi died of pleurisy. Reports tell us that shortly before his death he made a number of wills. These bequests have been collected in an independent tract and published under the name 'Wasaya Shariff'. In this tract he bequeathed his party as follows: 'Hold fast to my faith and doctrine which is apparent from my works. Hold fast to it and remain honest to it, for it is the most significant duty among the duties' [b][Robinson: Separatism among Indian Muslims, Cambridge, 1974 p. 443][/b]
Lastly he said, 'After my death if possible present offering (fatiha) to me twice or thrice in a week and offer the following dishes: iced rice pudding, even if it is made from the milk of the buffalo, biryani rice dish of bukhara type, pomengranate juice, a bottle of water, and iced milk. If it is possible you may present this offering everyday, even a dish of them, otherwise as you like. [b][Al Bastawi al Bareilawi p 9-10][/b]

EXAGGERATION OF THE BAREILAWI
Some said about it: 'The Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam was sitting along with a group of his companions waiting for the coming of the Bareilawi', for when he was asked about his silence and that of his companions, he said, We are waiting for the Bareilawi till he comes. [b][Al Bastwai, p 121, Introduction to al Fatawa al Riwiyya p 13] [/b]Moreover the Messanger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam sent the gift of perfume for the washing of the Bareilawis [b][u][u][Wasaya al Bareilawi p 19].[/u][/u][/b]
most disgracing exaggeration of this sect is their statement about him, is: The seeing of the Bareilawi reduced the eagerness for visiting the companions of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam [b][Hasnain Rida, Wasaya al Bareilawi p 24].[/b] One person said, 'No versatile scholar like him is found in the last two centuries' [b][Hasnain Rida, Wasaya al Bareilawi p 24]. [/b]Another said, 'There is no parallel for him in respect of his academic supremacy and perfect action. The Bareilawi was unparallel in his academic power and soundness of opinion' [b][Introduction to Sharh al Huquq p8].[/b] A third person said, 'The Bareilawi reviewed the religion by his teachings' [Ibid p7] A fourth one said, 'The Fatawa Ridwiyya (i.e. his fatwas) contains a number of questions which did not strike the ears of the ulema' [[b]Bahari Shariat Vol 1 p3] [/b]

LEADERS OF THE BAREILAWI
The most outstanding of them is Naim al Din Muradabadi. There was no coordination between the two except opposing the monotheists, the adherents of the Qur'aan and Sunnah, supporting the rites and ceremonies of the hindus which permeated the Muslims under the name of the religion and were practiced among them. They had the common cause of helping the spreading of innovations, getting blessings from the tombs, seeking the medium of the pious, taking vows to the dead, holding death anniversaries at the tombs, known as Urs, and so forth. One of their leaders Amjid Ali. composed a number of works in support of his thought. one of his works is 'bahari shariat' in fiqh. The book mentions legal questions and injunctions of shariah in the light of the teachings of Bareilawi. This book became the encyclopedia of the fiqh for the Bareilawi [[b]Al Istimdad, pp 90-91][/b] One of their leaders was Ahmad Yar Naimi. He misinterpreted a large number of the Qur'aanic verses from their original meaning and import. [b][Sharaf al Qadiri, Tadhkira Akabir Ahl as Sunna, p 54][/b]

BAREILAWI AND ITS DOCTRINES
Sometimes their beliefs resemble the shia beliefs...before we describe their beliefs, we wish to mention two things for the reader. Their beliefs and doctrines are the very absurd and nonsense rites, ceremonies and superstitions, which have spread in many countries among the sufi circles...secondly we are quoting these beliefs from Bareilawi Ahmad Rida who names himself Abd al Mustafa (i.e. the servant of the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), from his leading personalities, from the distinguished leaders of his
APPEAL FOR AID TO A PERSON OTHER THAN Allaah AND SEEKING HELP FROM HIM
The Bareilawis make such statements which Islam refutes openly, 'There are servants of Allaah whom He has singled out for fulfilling the needs of the people who flee to them with their needs' [b][Al Bareilawi, al Amn wal ula, Lahore, Dar al Tabligh, p 29][/b]. The Bareilawi said, 'Seeking help and aid from anyone besides Allaah is lawful and desired. No one denies it, except an arrogant and obstinate' [[b]Al Bareilawi, Hayat al Mawat, included in al Fatawa al Ridwiyya Vol IV p 300[/b]]
Bareilawi says, 'When you are confused and helpless in matters, then seek help from the inmates of the tombs'. [[b]Al Amm wal ula p 44[/b]] The Bareilawi said, 'Muhammad b al Farghal used to say, 'I am one of those who have power of disposition in the graves, if anyone has a need, he should come to me in front of my face and make mention of his need, I shall fulfill it'. [b][Anwar al Intibah p 182][/b]
"Say: Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy, besides Allaah. They have no power not the weight of the atom - in the heavens or on the earth. No share have they therein, no is any of them a Helper to Allaah" Qur'aan 1: 5
"Such is Allaah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke beside Him have not the least power. If you invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the Day of Judgement they will reject your partnership. And none (O man) can tell thee (the truth), like the one who is acquainted with all things" Qur'aan 35: 13-14
"But those ye call upon besides Him, are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves" Qur'aan 7:197
"Nor have ye, besides Allaah, anyone to protect or to help" Qur'aan 42: 31

THE POWER OF THE PROPHETS AND SAINTS AND THEIR AUTHORITY
The Bareilawis have treated Allaah as suspended and isolated from any authority, power and sovereignty. They allege that the power has shifted to the saints. they (saints) are masters of the earth and those who live on it. they (saints) are the commanders of the heavens. they (saints) dispose of matter in it (universe) as they like. From them (saints) comes help. How is it warranted for these people to attribute themselves to Islam...
"There is no god by He! He gives life and death" Qur'aan 29: 60

I have highlighted the sources in bold , i have researched the sources and they appear to be authentic , do not just dismiss this because you dont agree with the source that would be arrogance , if you still in doubt present evidence agaisnt this , with proof of the sources, i have nothing to gain from this , i dont care less if you agree or disagree , Islam is divided at the moment that is why we are in such a poor state , islam is at its weakest point ever in history we need to unite under one ummah , one nation, one army not argue about pety things , inshallah may allah giude us on the right track .

In absence of any supreme authority in Islam except the Prophet (Pbuh) whose fatwa cannot be challenged, it may not be practicable for all the Muslims to abide by them all the time and to live a life following all dictates of fatawa so why follow these other branches lets stick to the quran and sunnah of the prophet (pbuh)

No I presented evidence why evidence is vital in accusations.

I am not really bothered about what Ahmad raza may or may not have got upto.

I did address one issue where it was said by Khans1 that the brother of one of his teachers was a qadiyani. I replied that one of the uncles of The Prophet was Abu Jahl.

Apart from that... I said if there is an allegation, prove the allegation.

However the issue is a side issue, one of just arguing for the sake of it. It does not affect aqeedah, nor does it affect practice.

agreed Admin furthermore especially in this climate of Muslim insecurity we need unity and picking on each others sects and leaders is not helping.

if anyone disagrees with Imam Ahmed Raza Khan then do so on your own time same with any other scholar

i think all threads that start off attacking any other sect should be blocked in the interest of Islamic brotherhood.

how many times does one have to say you follow your way and leave me to mine but as Muslims lets unite

lets talk about things we have in common and not those that divide us lets build a strong Muslim community

if we still feel the need to attack then attack [b]issues[/b] not people

i am making a plea to everyone lets get some sense of perspective

Raf786; that is wikipedia. It is written by whoever can be bothered with no editorial control. As it is written at the top, there is a question on the quality of the article.

Quote:

Sometimes their beliefs resemble the shia beliefs...before we describe their beliefs, we wish to mention two things for the reader. Their beliefs and doctrines are the very absurd and nonsense rites, ceremonies and superstitions

lol!

Quote:

The Bareilawis have treated Allaah as suspended and isolated from any authority, power and sovereignty. They allege that the power has shifted to the saints. they (saints) are masters of the earth and those who live on it. they (saints) are the commanders of the heavens. they (saints) dispose of matter in it (universe) as they like. From them (saints) comes help. How is it warranted for these people to attribute themselves to Islam...

Hmmm... Where is the research... who believes that? First I have heard of that, and no barelvi I know believes anything remotely similar.

admin i am dissapointed , why have you just attacked my evidence , i made it clear wickpedia is biased and was just pointing out how information may be biased, the saints i think they refer to are piers and dilbars i know of some piers who say they have guidance from spirits and can tell the future , some even make money from it.

then i qouted other sites which shows thier sources which i highlighted in bold , at least i took the time out to research it , people who just attack my evidence without producing their own are just arrogant or lazy , its not about right or wrong present your evidence and let the readers decide

anyway did you not read sister seemas post , i agree with her 100% and wish to leave the issue for readers to research and decide , present evidence people not accusation

why are you disapointed? I just pointed out the innacuracies that I knew about. The rest, as I do not know I left.

I thank you for taking your time to research. That is why i had not responded to you as I had to Khans1. (he just made some accusations, and asked to be proved wrong... not always possible. That is why there are people who believe in martians. You cannot prove they do not exist. Not found any proof they exist? well look harder! )

I also agree with seema. We have nothing to lose, nothing to gain.
I pointed out some innacuracies that is all. People an take your evidence, and look at it if they like.

fair-play admin

"Raf786" wrote:

fair-play admin

That is probably the biggest compliment I can get as Admin.

I try to be even handed. Some things boil over, others do not.

Just like Med in the eid topic. a small point, but he for some reason started getting aggressive when asked for equality.

EDIT - Some more stuff added in.

One other thing I just noticed is that your quotes are calling barelvi's polytheists. And they are basing them of wrong info. So the soures are not valid IMO, as calling another polytheist is a very strong criticism. Polytheism is the only sin that Allah may never forgive. The doctrine in your post is all wrong, and based off hearsay, as its ludicrously wrong. There is alot of insult in there just for the sake of insult. eg. 'naeem abad muradabadi teamed upjust to fight monotheists and promote hindu like beliefs'... totally uncalled for. I think that is a bit that you qupted, and not your words...

And some of the criticism against Ahmad raza borders on racism! If people cannot defeat arguments, they resort to personal insults. Unfortunately that is a fact of life.

There are valid arguements against him, and some of his positions. I could even list a few. But as I have not looked deeply into them, it would be arrogant of me to do so. (top of my head there are 4 I disagree with. Albeit on many issues I do not nkow his stance. I have not looked ito his positions apart from those that have been pointed out to me.)