Should 16 and 17-year-old teenagers face mandatory custodial sentences for threatening others with knives?

Published by lollywood on 27 October, 2011 - 01:24
Submitted by LookingToSee on 29 October, 2011 - 21:01

is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?

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Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Submitted by lollywood on 29 October, 2011 - 21:12

Lilly wrote:
is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?

Yes

The governments stance is

If they're old enough to carry a knife then there old enough to face the consequences

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My English is not very good

Submitted by LookingToSee on 29 October, 2011 - 21:14

lollywood wrote:
Lilly wrote:
is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?

Yes

The governments stance is

If they're old enough to carry a knife then there old enough to face the consequences

indeed.

—

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Submitted by The Lamp on 1 November, 2011 - 18:08

And what's that going to achieve? Nothing! They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by lollywood on 1 November, 2011 - 18:35

The Lamp wrote:
And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!

Safer streets and less stabbings

The Lamp wrote:

They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England

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My English is not very good

Submitted by You on 1 November, 2011 - 18:47

The Lamp wrote:
And what's that going to achieve? Nothing! They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

Carry a weapon around and you may be forced to us it.

Zero tolerance.

Because I would rather have someone behind bars that another person dead.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by The Lamp on 2 November, 2011 - 15:51

lollywood wrote:
The Lamp wrote:
And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!

Safer streets and less stabbings

The Lamp wrote:

They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England

Firstly, no we actually haven't, not well enough, in areas where it has been done effectively there has been a reduction in knife carrying. See the "No Knives, Better Lives" Campaign in Scotland. Locking every young person up for carrying a knife regardless of the individual circumstances will NOT reduce crime, it will make things worse once they are released.

It's funny you mention rioting in August, but that wasn't just one big unified riot. A crap doctor just looks at the symptoms, while a great doctor will look at the roots as well. For some people, they were fuelled by greed, boredom or anger.
There's always a way to prevent some of the problems, if we look hard enough.

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by TPOS on 2 November, 2011 - 16:14

lollywood wrote:
The Lamp wrote:
And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!

Safer streets and less stabbings

The Lamp wrote:

They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England

Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?

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"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by lollywood on 2 November, 2011 - 19:39

The Lamp wrote:

Firstly, no we actually haven't, not well enough, in areas where it has been done effectively there has been a reduction in knife carrying. See the "No Knives, Better Lives" Campaign in Scotland. Locking every young person up for carrying a knife regardless of the individual circumstances will NOT reduce crime, it will make things worse once they are released.

Some people will be criminals no matter how many chances you give them and I don’t think they can be rehabilitated just look James Bulger's killer John Venables

The two boys, by then aged 11, were found guilty of Bulger's murder at the Preston court on 24 November 1993, becoming the youngest convicted murderers of the 20th century.[38] The judge, Mr. Justice Morland, told Thompson and Venables that they had committed a crime of "unparalleled evil and barbarity... In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked.

June 2001, after a six-month review, the parole board ruled the boys were no longer a threat to public safety and could be released as their minimum tariff had expired in February of that year. The Home Secretary David Blunkett approved the decision, and they were released a few weeks later on a lifelong licence after serving eight years

Both men were given new identities and moved to secret locations under a "witness protection"-style action.

This was supported by the fabrication of passports, national insurance numbers, qualification certificates and medical records. Blunkett added his own conditions to their licence and insisted on being sent daily updates on the men's actions

Jon Venables re offended

On 2 March 2010, the Ministry of Justice revealed that Jon Venables had been returned to prison for an unspecified violation of the terms of his licence of release. The Justice Secretary Jack Straw stated that Venables had been returned to prison because of "extremely serious allegations", and stated that he was "unable to give further details of the reasons for Jon Venables's return to custody, because it was not in the public interest to do so.

The Lamp wrote:

It's funny you mention rioting in August, but that wasn't just one big unified riot. A crap doctor just looks at the symptoms, while a great doctor will look at the roots as well. For some people, they were fuelled by greed, boredom or anger.

There's always a way to prevent some of the problems, if we look hard enough.


[/quote]

It was greed and opportunistic criminality nothing else it’s oh the police are standing there not doing anything ok so let’s go and nick a HD TV, I-phone or something, if they were doing it because of poverty then they would have looted things like bread, butter, eggs, milk, breakfast cereals and that kind of thing but no it was high end sports wear or electronic goods, they were so mesmerized by these brands they were even packing the goods in the companies bags, come on

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My English is not very good

Submitted by lollywood on 2 November, 2011 - 19:44

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?

Are you saying that they make things look worse then they actually are?

—

My English is not very good

Submitted by TPOS on 2 November, 2011 - 22:14

lollywood wrote:

It was greed and opportunistic criminality nothing else it’s oh the police are standing there not doing anything ok so let’s go and nick a HD TV, I-phone or something, if they were doing it because of poverty then they would have looted things like bread, butter, eggs, milk, breakfast cereals and that kind of thing but no it was high end sports wear or electronic goods, they were so mesmerized by these brands they were even packing the goods in the companies bags, come on


Though that fits, you could also say it was relative deprivation instead of 'poverty'.
—

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by TPOS on 2 November, 2011 - 22:15

lollywood wrote:
ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?

Are you saying that they make things look worse then they actually are?


Yes, they're generally chatting rubbish
—

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by Ya'qub on 3 November, 2011 - 01:26

Most people who have spent time in prison have opportunities in the outside world taken from them, become marginalised from mainstream society and this leads to them reoffending.

what happens a lot is somebody goes in for a minor offence but learns about darker things and is influenced by worse criminals and then ends up in a life of crime (that is a ridiculous overstatement/generalisation, but lollywood seems to think in those terms).

of course there are some people that need to be locked up.

but if young ppl are given more opportunities for success instead of having them taken away from them, they are less likely to NEED to resort to crime and end up being a threat to society in the long run.

—

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Submitted by LookingToSee on 3 November, 2011 - 23:10

yeqh, but the life of an innocent OTHER youth who hasnt resorted to carrying a knife might be lost.

it abt when they come out of prison.

or maybe make prisons for small crimes etc...

—

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Submitted by The Lamp on 7 November, 2011 - 18:04

That life might be lost because we haven't learnt to tackle the problem effectively and the youth gets institutionalised.
Why make a custodial sentence MANDATORY for ALL knife crimes? That cannot work.

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by lollywood on 7 November, 2011 - 18:12

The Lamp wrote:
That life might be lost because we haven't learnt to tackle the problem effectively and the youth gets institutionalised.

When are we going to learn?

The Lamp wrote:

Why make a custodial sentence MANDATORY for ALL knife crimes?

Because that might deter some teenagers from carrying knife's

The Lamp wrote:

That cannot work.

[/quote]

That's yet to be seen

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My English is not very good

Submitted by The Lamp on 8 November, 2011 - 16:13

It might deter a small minority, but that's too simplistic. People carry knives for all sorts of complicated reasons and sending all youths to prison without assessing the individual circumstances isn't going to rehabilitate them, it's more likely to mean that they'd return to prison some time later.

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by lollywood on 8 November, 2011 - 16:26

The Lamp wrote:
It might deter a small minority,

It's better then none

The Lamp wrote:

but that's too simplistic. People carry knives for all sorts of complicated reasons and sending all youths to prison without assessing the individual circumstances isn't going to rehabilitate them, it's more likely to mean that they'd return to prison some time later.

A stabbing victim has said a new knife amnesty in Derby will not cut crime.

The month-long initiative will see collection bins put outside police stations in the city.

One in 10 teenagers in knife crime "hotspots" targeted by the government say they still have to carry a weapon to feel safe, a Newsbeat poll shows.

More than half of the people questioned said they are worried about other teens carrying a knife when they go out.

Fifty-three per cent surveyed said the government would not be able to reduce teen violence over the coming months.

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My English is not very good

Submitted by The Lamp on 24 November, 2011 - 17:24

Lollywood, mate, I'm not sure I get your point 100%, are you supporting the views linked? If so can you please use your own words rather than just get someone elses opinion off the internet, please?

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by lollywood on 24 November, 2011 - 18:11

The Lamp wrote:
Lollywood, mate, I'm not sure I get your point 100%, are you supporting the views linked? If so can you please use your own words rather than just get someone elses opinion off the internet, please?

they were from bbc

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My English is not very good

Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 21:59

ABOS's are harshest on youth, what better way to control people then by controlling their young. Course no one should carry knives but then we shouldn't have such a society that necessitates the carrying of knives. As you know ASBOs have practically forced young boys in particular into gangs and to the fringes f society they feel alienated picked on

Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 22:06

laila wrote:
ABOS's are harshest on youth, what better way to control people then by controlling their young. Course no one should carry knives but then we shouldn't have such a society that necessitates the carrying of knives. As you know ASBOs have practically forced young boys in particular into gangs and to the fringes f society they feel alienated picked on

They're gna be doing dodgy stuff before they get an ASBO...

It's a bad cycle.

—

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 22:30

Only prob is that dodgy stuff is usually some type of childish risky behaviour a part of growing up and they've criminalised it!

Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 22:41

laila wrote:
Only prob is that dodgy stuff is usually some type of childish risky behaviour a part of growing up and they've criminalised it!

There's a difference between childish and anti-social. And if they're old enough to get ASBOs they should know the difference between right and wrong and be punished for the wrong.
—

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 23:17

I disagree children are product of society parents you me etc we are to blame plus a little risk taking is now called anti social not good gov has too much power they need to ease up we can't all conform to one bland ideal not on not on my watch any way. I shudder to think where we'll be in 50?years time if this continues, schools are already like military camps where they are taught what the state wants them to be taught

Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 23:23

laila wrote:
I disagree children are product of society parents you me etc we are to blame plus a little risk taking is now called anti social not good gov has too much power they need to ease up we can't all conform to one bland ideal not on not on my watch any way. I shudder to think where we'll be in 50?years time if this continues, schools are already like military camps where they are taught what the state wants them to be taught

No one is saying the parents shouldn't have the blame.

Risk-taking?

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"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 23:36

Yes risk taking being adventurous taking risks ie climbing on walls, fighting etc visiting derelict buildings you know all the things we did as kids well I did a bit of vandalism, graffiti etc etc these are just some of the things that help you Learn. course you were told off even chastised but that's part of growing up you grow out if it

You were not branded for life as you are now and most did not become criminals because of this risky play but now of course they are treated as criminals and will be consorting with other criminals and will become adult criminals

And tell me this why is it always the lower class being picked on surely theres a lesson in there somewhere

We have brains hearts we can't be expected to go along with every idiot policy the gov comes up with

Submitted by Ya'qub on 24 November, 2011 - 23:37

i agree with laila

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Don't just do something! Stand there.

Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 23:50

laila wrote:
Yes risk taking being adventurous taking risks ie climbing on walls, fighting etc visiting derelict buildings you know all the things we did as kids well I did a bit of vandalism, graffiti etc etc these are just some of the things that help you Learn. course you were told off even chastised but that's part of growing up you grow out if it

You were not branded for life as you are now and most did not become criminals because of this risky play but now of course they are treated as criminals and will be consorting with other criminals and will become adult criminals

And tell me this why is it always the lower class being picked on surely theres a lesson in there somewhere

We have brains hearts we can't be expected to go along with every idiot policy the gov comes up with


It's not the best way to deal with them but I do think they should be punished in some way even if it's just messing about. I mean fighting, for example, isn't just simply 'risk taking', it's stupid and leads to people being hurt.

Lower class people are targetted more becuase, again, it's a bad cycle in which they let their frustrations out in this way, then they're criminalised for it, then they become worse and so on. The upper class commit other types of crimes, which probably are harder to detect and punish...

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"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 23:59

Punished children should be punished! Surely even God does not punish children, advice and love us what the need love first

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