is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?

[quote=Lilly]is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?[/quote]

Yes

The governments stance is

If they're old enough to carry a knife then there old enough to face the consequences

[quote=lollywood][quote=Lilly]is this saying 16/17years old should go prison?[/quote]

Yes

The governments stance is

If they're old enough to carry a knife then there old enough to face the consequences[/quote]

indeed.

And what's that going to achieve? Nothing! They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.

[quote=The Lamp]And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!
[/quote]

Safer streets and less stabbings

[quote=The Lamp]
They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.[/quote]

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England

[quote=The Lamp]And what's that going to achieve? Nothing! They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.[/quote]

Carry a weapon around and you may be forced to us it.

Zero tolerance.

Because I would rather have someone behind bars that another person dead.

[quote=lollywood][quote=The Lamp]And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!
[/quote]

Safer streets and less stabbings

[quote=The Lamp]
They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.[/quote]

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England[/quote]

Firstly, no we actually haven't, not well enough, in areas where it has been done effectively there has been a reduction in knife carrying. See the "No Knives, Better Lives" Campaign in Scotland. Locking every young person up for carrying a knife regardless of the individual circumstances will NOT reduce crime, it will make things worse once they are released.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15506307

It's funny you mention rioting in August, but that wasn't just one big unified riot. A crap doctor just looks at the symptoms, while a great doctor will look at the roots as well. For some people, they were fuelled by greed, boredom or anger.
There's always a way to prevent some of the problems, if we look hard enough.

[quote=lollywood][quote=The Lamp]And what's that going to achieve?
Nothing!
[/quote]

Safer streets and less stabbings

[quote=The Lamp]
They're carrying a knife for possibly a range of different reasons. For some it might be to protect themselves from bullies, or because they're misguided. If we don't look at the individual background first, then we're at risk of sending them into the prison system and keeping them there. That's not on.[/quote]

We've done a lot of looking and it hasn't worked so far- more and more teenagers are being stabbed

If some these people were locked up then maybe we would have not seen rioting and looting on the streets of England[/quote]

Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?

[quote=The Lamp]
Firstly, no we actually haven't, not well enough, in areas where it has been done effectively there has been a reduction in knife carrying. See the "No Knives, Better Lives" Campaign in Scotland. Locking every young person up for carrying a knife regardless of the individual circumstances will NOT reduce crime, it will make things worse once they are released.
[/quote]

Some people will be criminals no matter how many chances you give them and I don’t think they can be rehabilitated just look James Bulger's killer John Venables

The two boys, by then aged 11, were found guilty of Bulger's murder at the Preston court on 24 November 1993, becoming the youngest convicted murderers of the 20th century.[38] The judge, Mr. Justice Morland, told Thompson and Venables that they had committed a crime of "unparalleled evil and barbarity... In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked.

June 2001, after a six-month review, the parole board ruled the boys were no longer a threat to public safety and could be released as their minimum tariff had expired in February of that year. The Home Secretary David Blunkett approved the decision, and they were released a few weeks later on a lifelong licence after serving eight years

Both men were given new identities and moved to secret locations under a "witness protection"-style action.

This was supported by the fabrication of passports, national insurance numbers, qualification certificates and medical records. Blunkett added his own conditions to their licence and insisted on being sent daily updates on the men's actions

Jon Venables re offended

On 2 March 2010, the Ministry of Justice revealed that Jon Venables had been returned to prison for an unspecified violation of the terms of his licence of release. The Justice Secretary Jack Straw stated that Venables had been returned to prison because of "extremely serious allegations", and stated that he was "unable to give further details of the reasons for Jon Venables's return to custody, because it was not in the public interest to do so.

[quote=The Lamp]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15506307

It's funny you mention rioting in August, but that wasn't just one big unified riot. A crap doctor just looks at the symptoms, while a great doctor will look at the roots as well. For some people, they were fuelled by greed, boredom or anger.

There's always a way to prevent some of the problems, if we look hard enough.[/quote]
[/quote]

It was greed and opportunistic criminality nothing else it’s oh the police are standing there not doing anything ok so let’s go and nick a HD TV, I-phone or something, if they were doing it because of poverty then they would have looted things like bread, butter, eggs, milk, breakfast cereals and that kind of thing but no it was high end sports wear or electronic goods, they were so mesmerized by these brands they were even packing the goods in the companies bags, come on

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?[/quote]

Are you saying that they make things look worse then they actually are?

[quote=lollywood]

It was greed and opportunistic criminality nothing else it’s oh the police are standing there not doing anything ok so let’s go and nick a HD TV, I-phone or something, if they were doing it because of poverty then they would have looted things like bread, butter, eggs, milk, breakfast cereals and that kind of thing but no it was high end sports wear or electronic goods, they were so mesmerized by these brands they were even packing the goods in the companies bags, come on[/quote]
Though that fits, you could also say it was relative deprivation instead of 'poverty'.

[quote=lollywood][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Something I learnt today:
tabloid readers...that would be people who read daily mail/mirror etc think youth crime is at a higher percentage than it is. (47% of readers compared to 26% as far as I remember) They're actually responsible for around 19% of all crime. Do you understand what's wrong with being a daily mail/mirror, now?[/quote]

Are you saying that they make things look worse then they actually are?[/quote]
Yes, they're generally chatting rubbish

Most people who have spent time in prison have opportunities in the outside world taken from them, become marginalised from mainstream society and this leads to them reoffending.

what happens a lot is somebody goes in for a minor offence but learns about darker things and is influenced by worse criminals and then ends up in a life of crime (that is a ridiculous overstatement/generalisation, but lollywood seems to think in those terms).

of course there are some people that need to be locked up.

but if young ppl are given more opportunities for success instead of having them taken away from them, they are less likely to NEED to resort to crime and end up being a threat to society in the long run.

yeqh, but the life of an innocent OTHER youth who hasnt resorted to carrying a knife might be lost.

it abt when they come out of prison.

or maybe make prisons for small crimes etc...

That life might be lost because we haven't learnt to tackle the problem effectively and the youth gets institutionalised.
Why make a custodial sentence MANDATORY for ALL knife crimes? That cannot work.

[quote=The Lamp]That life might be lost because we haven't learnt to tackle the problem effectively and the youth gets institutionalised.
[/quote]
When are we going to learn?

[quote=The Lamp]
Why make a custodial sentence MANDATORY for ALL knife crimes?
[/quote]
Because that might deter some teenagers from carrying knife's

[quote=The Lamp]
That cannot work.[/quote]
[/quote]

That's yet to be seen

It might deter a small minority, but that's too simplistic. People carry knives for all sorts of complicated reasons and sending all youths to prison without assessing the individual circumstances isn't going to rehabilitate them, it's more likely to mean that they'd return to prison some time later.

[quote=The Lamp]It might deter a small minority,
[/quote]

It's better then none

[quote=The Lamp]
but that's too simplistic. People carry knives for all sorts of complicated reasons and sending all youths to prison without assessing the individual circumstances isn't going to rehabilitate them, it's more likely to mean that they'd return to prison some time later.[/quote]

A stabbing victim has said a new knife amnesty in Derby will not cut crime.

The month-long initiative will see collection bins put outside police stations in the city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-15533982

One in 10 teenagers in knife crime "hotspots" targeted by the government say they still have to carry a weapon to feel safe, a Newsbeat poll shows.

More than half of the people questioned said they are worried about other teens carrying a knife when they go out.

Fifty-three per cent surveyed said the government would not be able to reduce teen violence over the coming months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/the_p_word/newsid_8119000/8119417.stm

Lollywood, mate, I'm not sure I get your point 100%, are you supporting the views linked? If so can you please use your own words rather than just get someone elses opinion off the internet, please?

[quote=The Lamp]Lollywood, mate, I'm not sure I get your point 100%, are you supporting the views linked? If so can you please use your own words rather than just get someone elses opinion off the internet, please?[/quote]

they were from bbc

ABOS's are harshest on youth, what better way to control people then by controlling their young. Course no one should carry knives but then we shouldn't have such a society that necessitates the carrying of knives. As you know ASBOs have practically forced young boys in particular into gangs and to the fringes f society they feel alienated picked on

[quote=laila]ABOS's are harshest on youth, what better way to control people then by controlling their young. Course no one should carry knives but then we shouldn't have such a society that necessitates the carrying of knives. As you know ASBOs have practically forced young boys in particular into gangs and to the fringes f society they feel alienated picked on[/quote]

They're gna be doing dodgy stuff before they get an ASBO...

It's a bad cycle.

Only prob is that dodgy stuff is usually some type of childish risky behaviour a part of growing up and they've criminalised it!

[quote=laila]Only prob is that dodgy stuff is usually some type of childish risky behaviour a part of growing up and they've criminalised it![/quote]
There's a difference between childish and anti-social. And if they're old enough to get ASBOs they should know the difference between right and wrong and be punished for the wrong.

I disagree children are product of society parents you me etc we are to blame plus a little risk taking is now called anti social not good gov has too much power they need to ease up we can't all conform to one bland ideal not on not on my watch any way. I shudder to think where we'll be in 50?years time if this continues, schools are already like military camps where they are taught what the state wants them to be taught

[quote=laila]I disagree children are product of society parents you me etc we are to blame plus a little risk taking is now called anti social not good gov has too much power they need to ease up we can't all conform to one bland ideal not on not on my watch any way. I shudder to think where we'll be in 50?years time if this continues, schools are already like military camps where they are taught what the state wants them to be taught[/quote]
No one is saying the parents shouldn't have the blame.

Risk-taking?

Yes risk taking being adventurous taking risks ie climbing on walls, fighting etc visiting derelict buildings you know all the things we did as kids well I did a bit of vandalism, graffiti etc etc these are just some of the things that help you Learn. course you were told off even chastised but that's part of growing up you grow out if it

You were not branded for life as you are now and most did not become criminals because of this risky play but now of course they are treated as criminals and will be consorting with other criminals and will become adult criminals

And tell me this why is it always the lower class being picked on surely theres a lesson in there somewhere

We have brains hearts we can't be expected to go along with every idiot policy the gov comes up with

i agree with laila

[quote=laila]Yes risk taking being adventurous taking risks ie climbing on walls, fighting etc visiting derelict buildings you know all the things we did as kids well I did a bit of vandalism, graffiti etc etc these are just some of the things that help you Learn. course you were told off even chastised but that's part of growing up you grow out if it

You were not branded for life as you are now and most did not become criminals because of this risky play but now of course they are treated as criminals and will be consorting with other criminals and will become adult criminals

And tell me this why is it always the lower class being picked on surely theres a lesson in there somewhere

We have brains hearts we can't be expected to go along with every idiot policy the gov comes up with[/quote]
It's not the best way to deal with them but I do think they should be punished in some way even if it's just messing about. I mean fighting, for example, isn't just simply 'risk taking', it's stupid and leads to people being hurt.

Lower class people are targetted more becuase, again, it's a bad cycle in which they let their frustrations out in this way, then they're criminalised for it, then they become worse and so on. The upper class commit other types of crimes, which probably are harder to detect and punish...

Punished children should be punished! Surely even God does not punish children, advice and love us what the need love first