When I was younger (and this may still be the case in many places), there was a fear within the immigrant community - one day we will be kicked out, told to go back home.
This started decades ago from when the labourers came over to earn money with a view of returning "back home". This meant that they saved up money and sent it back, maybe even built mansions there, to eventually return to. They lived more affordable lives here - if they were going to get kicked out or leave voluntarily, there was no point building a future here.
Over time however, such a view lost its strength, it became diluted and a shadow and people maybe even forgot about it - they had kids, brought them up in the UK, integrated and besides, we are not in eastern Europe, we are in a civilised and liberal country, what could go wrong? Britain is home.
There was a resurgence of such a view with the Bosnian war - the Muslims there were native, so what chance did immigrant Muslims have?
I used to laugh at the thought that people worried about such things. In my mind pigs would fly before people would get any such notion.
A liberal society meant that we would be free to practice out faith, free to earn an honest living and free to live.
However, other actions in and around Europe may once again let such fears rise:
First there were the European elections where far right parties across the board got more favourable support.
Then a Minaret ban in Switzerland, the most neutral of countries, so neutral it did not even stand up against Hitler!
Now there almost constant attacks on women's rights where people want to liberate them by taking away their existing rights. The liberalism in France seems to have turned militant - forced liberalism where anything seeming out of the ordinary or less liberal to be forced out or broken down.
Now, many of these troubles are either politically motivated or have coincided with an economic downturn (people can afford to be nice when things are going well), but they are still happening.
Lets not forget the phenomenon of the EDL non-violent protests that that always turn violent, who say they are protesting against "extremist Muslims", but at the same time do not think Muslims can be moderate. So all Muslims are Extremist Muslims.
The question arises is how far will all this go? What will the end game be?
Can we still laugh at the idea that people will be kicked out of places like the UK for simply being Muslims?
Who will get the last laugh?
Comments
No it isn't boring.
No we can't still laugh at that idea. It seems very likely to happen...sometime in the (near?) future.
How would you feel if you were sent "back home" (Q open to all those who can relate to it)
What do u think would happen to mixed race people? like those that hare half white and half pk etc?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
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"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
This is what will get us in to heaven!
If we migrate to 'wherever' to keep our religion intact.
It will, to coin a phrase, be a blessing in disguise.
You won't be migrating to keep your religion intact, but to survive. or have no choice at all.
and no, I don't think it won't be a blessing in disguise.
But things do not have to get that bad, nor is it a certainty that they will. Just a fear. A shadow of a doubt that some may experience.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
May I suggest that one of the problems is this.
Ordinary people like me with no axe to grind, no political affiliation and no religious affiliation are looking into Islam in the UK.
We read the Koran, noting that it is a book full of fear (rather than an emphasis on love like the New Testament), every other paragraph seems to be about hellfire. We note that Islam is a way of life and that this in practice means following the Sunnah (derived from Koran and Haddith) in addition to worshipping Allah and believing that Mohammed was his prophet: this importantly means believing the truth of and seeking Sharia.
We note that the Koran is quite specific about it being derived directly from Allah, unlike the Bible which an individual is free to interpret and draw inspiration from. We note that if you do not follow the exact instructions in the Koran (and to some degree the Sunnah) then you are going against the word of Allah and are therefore NOT REALLY A MUSLIM. To be a Muslim, we note, you have to accept everything in the Sunnah warts and all (allowing for some degree of differing opinion on interpretation) (let's ignore the Shias etc for now). On other Muslim forums it is quite normal for any Muslim not following the Koran and Haddith to the letter to be labelled a Kaffir. Thus you do not have moderate Muslims, we learn, but rather good and bad Muslims, with good Muslims following the Sunnah to the letter.
But here's the point. The Sunnah/Sharia says that beheadings, crucifixion, amputations, stoning are a methods of punishment which should be used, amongst others. Men can marry many wives without telling any of them as long as they meet their needs and spend equal time with them. If Muslims rise up to take the UK by force rather than dawah then that counts as jihaad and your devout Muslim men can take our daughters as war booty slaves, using them for sex as long as they are menstruating (it is quite normal for menstruation to being at age 10 so enslaving and having sex with 10 year old girls is considered A-OK in Islam). Homosexuals should be stoned to death. Apostates under Sharia should be beheaded. A girl who accuses a man of rape but cannot prove it gets lashed for zina (this just happened in Pakistan although I realise these rape/zina cases are being challenged and debated within Islam). And no music!!! And the list of atrocities goes on. You cannot say these things are rubbish, because there are many many many Islamic websites and reading sources out there confirming all of this. So the point is that for you to be a good Muslim you can have no compromise in following the Koran and Haddith, even if that means doing evil, cruel, wicked, vile, repugnant things such as those mentioned above. Yep, from a neutral starting point that is how I now view your religion, learning everything that influenced me from Islamic sources. It matters not one jot if there is beauty and wisdom elsewhere in the Islamic jigsaw. So, the question is, how many "good" Muslims are there out there and how many "bad" ones out there who would stand against the "good" ones rather than support them should it come to the crunch?
This is where you "moderate" guys need to step up to the challenge and rescue your communities from marginalisation and hate. We are crying out for a unified moderate Islamic voice but we do not get one! We get little bleats here and there from progressive Muslims but it seems they have no support from your community, indeed they get hostility. We need the majority of you to stand up and say, "Hey, we actually don't follow the Koran and Haddith literally, we don't want to support Sharia from east to west we would rather live in harmony with non-Muslims, these other guys are medieval fantasist loonies who do not represent us." Unless you convince people (would be even more of an uphill struggle with the concept of taqqiya being well-known) that the majority of Muslims would die rather than have Sharia implemented then I can't see things getting any better at all.
I would be delighted to be wrong in my analysis, please be specific with any refutations. It gives me great pain that my neutral and rational investigation into Islam has seen me arrive at a position of disgust and a fear that Islam is a great threat.
Not carrying out a specific action mentioned in the qur'an does not make a person lose faith - it is a sin.
Actually refuting the action and implying (or outright saying) that the qur'an is wrong is when people cross the line.
As for voices - people who shout louder get heard more. People invoking fear also get heard more. This is a natural thing.
untrue in its entirety.
Also untrue - there are muslims who argue this side, but this is not the historical position and is also rejected by the vast majority of Muslims - atleast a third of all Muslims in the world probably had their ancestors convert via the use of music and medleys.
The wrong assumption being that it requires you to do anything cruel, wicked, vile or repugnant. I hold that that is wholesale untrue.
If you believed all the above, it would not be an issue of moderate Muslims or extreme Muslims - if the quoted were true in any way, you would see no difference.
I can probably disagree with other bits in there too, but that would require me to do some research.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
"untrue in its entirety"
You have yet to convince me, given the following:
1) You seem to have a habit of going against clear guidance in islam-qa.com. This suggests to me that your views are those of a minority.
2) Muslims who are less open to interpretation of scripture than you (most of them?) have not disagreed with that specific point.
3) Look at youtube videos of Muslim protestors, they're quite happy to shout about taking our women as war booty.
4) Mohammed said you could have sex with slaves as long as they were old enough (search for slavery on islam-qa).
5) If the Muslims I have been having a dialogue with were to read your posts on this topic and the veil topic (in response to my posts) I have no doubt they would call you a kaffir.
Perhaps I should be clearer, you make your position fairly clear but please please convince me that your position is that of the majority of Muslims in the UK.
islam-qa is not a reliable website. I know where people suggest it, but I would suggest that it is from a revivalist movement which is pretty extreme. Try sunnipath, which will at time present the historical arguments from both sides along with their version. Islam-qa is not a good site and I would not recommend anyone to use it. Some of their views are crazy.
as for youtube videos - people like shouting things that sound strong. no one would add something weak or add caveats and addendums to them. like when the protesters called them "butchers of basra" and a few other things (babay killers? rapists? I cannot remember) - the claims were full of hot air and hyperbole.
4. Yes, it is technically possible for a person to be allowed to have sex with a slave maid but there are a few regulations to it:
freed and married one of a woman given to him as a slave (by I think a foreign kingdom who offered her as a sign of peace or something).
a. it has to be consensual.
b. a gift is required - and the majority of scholars have defined this this gift as marriage and shows how in the sunnah that was the case - the Prophet
c. without the two above conditions it is not allowed.
5 - I do not care what they say. send them over. I will present the qur'an and Sunnah to back up my positions. (what did I say that they would find so offensive? I am unsure as to where the problem would be...)
I am sure you mostly talk to teenagers on a few popular websites - they are not the mainstream of the muslim community. Neither am I - well, I may be, but I doubt it the majority of people will either not be extreme or be ignorant of the issues wholesale.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
It would take an in-depth discussion with you backing up your assertions using your own argument (the Koran and Haddith) for you to convince me that I am wrong (I hope so!). And in any case you concede the point that slavery is allowed under Islam so really it's a moot point (yes, I know Islamic slavery is different from Western/African slavery, but the essentials remain).
In the end though, it matters not whether that or another website is reliable or not, what matters is what proportion of Muslims follow it. That is my point. Every religious person feels as passionately as every other religious person that their version of religion is correct. What you may see as unreliable and incorrect, the majority (which is what we're talking about) may see as the word of god.
I just fail to understand how you can live life as a "good" Muslim, following the Koran and Haddith (let alone the other guidance from companions etc), and have a life which is in accord with a multi-faith and modern society. And there we go, nicely back onto the topic of hirja.
there are many people who follow it - mainly people affiliated with Saudi. but that would not put them anywhere near a majority.
Sunnipath is a general hanafi and sha'fi related site, so may have more followers. IslamOnline is another big site - it is linked to Shaykh Qaradawi and maybe also the Muslim Brotherhood, so that would mean what it says has a huge following/influence (though the site may be a follow instead of a leader).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Why can't you?
I can eat halaal food, I can pray, I can get halaal employment, Barclays have a current account where you do not get paid interest when in credit.
What else is required? I can practice my faith if I so choose to do so. I can practice it a lot if I want to, I can practice it a bit if I want to.
Yes, there are other laws in the UK which means that people can drink alcohol etc, but that does not force me to drink.
The UK laws are not preventing us from practising Islam in any way, so I do not see a problem (or I am misunderstanding).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Allowed and recommended are different things - the second Caliph of the Muslim world Caliph Umar did try to get it abolished and it was abolished under the later Ottoman empire, but that is not a complete picture.
If there was a situation in the UK where a group of Muslims did try to take over or even succeeded, I doubt there would be any slavery (but I could not say because its a hypothetical and I cannot comment on the ... personalities of these hypothetical individuals in a hypothetical scenario). A far more likely scenario than a violent Muslim takeover of the UK is a fascist takeover, but both are extremely unlikely.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
islam qa are those who probably support bombings and are lovers of bin laden.
islam qa does not represent all muslims nor is it the majority, imo it is extreme in its views and incorrect.
word of advice, stick to sunnipath.
Islam-qa site traffic
Sunnipath site traffic
Islam-qa has many many more viewers than Sunnipath.
Islam-qa seems to be intellectually honest about Islam. It says, yep slavery is in the Koran and yeh we'll take slaves in an armed jihaad. Sunnipath just makes excuses, oh slavery isn't so bad under Islam they're just ordinary civilians really - painful wriggling apologists. Thing is, you have to say slavery is either good as it is in the Koran and our modern sensibilities on the matter can get stuffed (islam-qa), or slavery is misunderstood and wouldn't happen now (sunnipath). You cannot downright condemn slavery as Mohammed had slave girls.
And what's with all this "sex with a slave girl has to be consensual?" Where does it say that in the Koran or Haddith? Of course you have to say it was consensual otherwise it follows that Mohammed had sex with his slave girls against their will. If you think Muslims didn't rape their war booty slave girls then you just must be having a laugh.
not just consensual, they also have to be offered (and accept) marriage (and freedom) before hand.
I am not the greatest fan of sunnipath either, but what you see as it wriggling out of excuses I see it as (on occasion) presenting more than its own opinion - going beneath the skin to discuss the issues deeper. Which is unhelpful if you want a yes or no answer, but at the same time, it does not forget or eradicate the other opinions on the matter.
As such, it is more scholarly and for being that it cannot be as concise - it has to cover the different opinions and interpretations.
If on the other hand you whitewash all differing opinion, it is easy to present something with strength and conviction, but it will be disingenuous.
(and if you look at the details of the rankings, for the UK sunnipath is ahead of islam-qa, but islam-qa is much much higher in saudi arabia.)
Yes, Islam did not outright forbid slavery. There are no two ways about that. It allowed it. However it also gave them rights, including the right to emancipation by saving up their wage.
Here is the thing - Islam is a practical religion. It would not demand the impossible and slavery was a fact of the time which with the islamic system would over time get eradicated (and was well on its way during the time of the early caliphs). (does islam-qa deny this?)
Further, this also has an influence on modern politics - for instance the status of the Palestinians - should we be demanding that they get a free state or should we be demanding that they have lives worth living? Since Islam did not abolish slavery, it is the quality of life that we should be demanding. (but some will counter this argument by saying they can only get the required quality of life in a free and separate independent state.)
aah, alexa. there was a time when we were on there at a decent position. /dons rose tinted spectacles.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
You, I can see where you're coming from. I was thinking like that a couple of weeks ago. The prospect of Nick Griffin becoming an MP had me really feeling really down. But I got over it. I'll post a longer piece about how I did in a few days time, but for now I'll just summarise some, probably contradictory, points.
- If it gets to the point that Muslims are being forced by the gov to leave the UK then the UK won't be a very nice place to live in for anyone. If Muslims are out, then blacks and Jews will be next. Same with gays, lefties and, I don't know, the Irish.
- Current anti-Muslim feeling in the UK is not pervasive. There are people who don't like Muslims, but there are many more people who aren't prejudiced and don't have an axe to grind against minorities.
- Besides, anti-Muslim feeling is just the current bigotry fad. It used to be Jews, then Catholics, then the Irish, then blacks and Asians and now Muslims. Each time these hate-fads have reduced in intensity. Jews were kicked out, Catholics were forced underground, the Irish were abused, blacks were feared, Asians were used and, lets face it, most people have had enough of hearing about Muslims and just want to move on.
- Most people want to get along with each other as human beings. Divisions based on race, religion and nationality are old school - just deperate people holding onto the last vestiges of past certainties.
- If we did have to move back to South Asia. Would it be so bad? India is on the up economically and if Pk plays its cards right it can have a piece of the action too. And we can be there to share in the fun.
- On the other hand, the Subcontinent is not immune from communal hate. Just look at Partition. Maybe it's not so bad here... we're OK where we are.
Hmm... seems I don't have much more to write for my proper rebuttal. But I'll see what other thoughts I can gather.
Yes it would.
It is an alien culture where things work differently to how I at least expect them to. There be mass poverty, frequent food shortages, electricity shortages, gas shortages.
Some people be kind of explosive too. Law and order may also be lacking or when present not up to standard.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The vast majority of the world's 1 billion Muslims (let alone the majority of the world's 6 billion people) live under those conditions. What makes you so special that you should be spared that standard of living?
I would rather avoid it. Nothing about being special (in the positive or the retarded sense), just a preference.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
It's got nothing to do with being "special".
Do you think those 1 billion Muslims like living like that? I don't think so.
Alhamdulillah Allah(swt) has blessed us with these lives so ofcourse we wouldn't want to go into worse living conditions.
Yes there are people suffering out there, but does it make sense that we go and add to the number of people suffering?
We should be helping them get out of their situation in every way that we can and also be thankful of what we have. I don't think Allah(swt) said we should make life worse for ourselves or be guilty of what we have (altho we really probaly don't deserve what we have)
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
But we don't and we're not.
Maybe a temporary swing to the far-right can jolt us out of our complacency.
yes i do think we're not doing the best that we could, but i don't really know how we could either. :S put forward ur ideas please.
what complacency?
what do u mean by "jolt to the right wing" ? :S
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
By 'a temporary swing to the far-right ' I mean that more and more people are voting for the BNP and more and more BNP members are gaining elected office. Over the next few years the BNP and UKIP could gain a handful of parliamentary seats. In such a political environment there will be greater calls for restrictions on minority rights eg banning the veil, restricting mosque construction, limiting immigration from Muslim countries, active discrimination against minorities especially Muslims.
I can't quite yet explain what I mean by 'complacency'. But I'm thinking of people who have lived here for over 10, 15 or 20 years and still can't speak English, parents who get their children married off in Pk, families who spend money building mansions in Pk but live on benefits in the UK, a political discourse which is more concerened with the Middle East than the deprivation of Muslims in the UK, and a sense of superiority when we have nothing to be superior about. In a restrictive and oppressive political environment we will have to address these issues.
...i don't get it, how's that good? :S
yeah people be stupid and ungrateful :/
but if people were to get kicked out, it wouldn't just be pakistanis...
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
It's not good, but it might just happen.
I agree.
Of course this argument only talks about immigrants and there are many more people here who converted to Islam to who the above arguments probably do not apply at all.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
cant reply on everything but islam-qa seems to be a salafi site, i would say hardcore salafi site. Not everything on their is incorrect, but if you're a novice or non muslim then it's not the best site to visit for informative knowledge on islam. non muslims and muslims alike may view it as an extreme interpretation of religion others may see it as "orthodox". i think the four schools of thght represent the majority of muslims throughout the world. so a site like sunnipath is probably more acceptable for you to judge us by.
I don't know what bit of the Quran you have been selecting but Allah speaks about His Mercy more than he does about His Wrath or Hell fire. Yes Hell fire is mentioned, punishments are mentioned but why is this focused upon by non muslims so much, maybe because they have a impartial view on us already?. maybe sit and count the positive words in the Quran. you are stating that it is full of hate, and a religion of fear. I see it as a religion of Mercy.
As for slavery in islam, slavery exists in Bible too, lets not even suggest Islam is the evil of all evil. No other religion gave slaves rights. Before Islam arrived slaves had no rights.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
i hate to say it i would not want to live in Bangladesh. I think the poverty there is worse than Indian or Pakistan. There is a lack of law and order, if you have money it can be purchased easily. But if you are not wealthy life can be hard there and even dangerous.
My Bengali is pretty rubbish i would be mocked. Ppl who have religion as centre of their lives are mocked. i think Bangladesh on the whole is very secular. Sure ppl pray, fast but its become part of culture and empty rituals many don't see or know importance of it. There is a growing population of muslims who are spreading the faith but generally its secular minded. so it's not my ideal place to return to.
Who says you'd have to go to south asian country? Why not other muslim countries?
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
Good luck with that idea - from what I understand, No Arab country would consider giving a non local individual citizenship or permanent residency. You will be an outsider for ever as would your children. Unless you marry an Arab (which only works for women as marrying an arab woman will not entitle you or your kids to have Arab citizenship). As for non-arab countries, the situation may be different.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.