Segregation is generally considered to be the easiest (as opposed to best) way to meet the requirements of the people atleast some of the times.

It can also allow women to dress up, let their hair down without having to worry about the presence of non-mahram men.

The goal is not segregation, but sometimes it is the easiest means to accomplish things.

However segregation also has its costs and sometimes in some situations they can outweigh its benefits - there even NEEDS to be interaction between men and women at some level to facilitate things such as marriage.

the hijab between women and between men and women is different - if there are no strange men present, the women are allowed more lenience - let the hair down, wear perfume, be less covered etc.

The basic verse asking for coverings is this one I think: [qs:33:59]

EDIT - actually, the main one is this: [qs:24:30-31]

So what is required is modesty between the sexes. Sometimes the easiest way to achieve that is to have the other gender to not be there. (note the use of the word "easy" and not "best" nor "only")

(the covering of the hair is somehow implied in there - I have been told so, but I have not managed to convincingly figure out how - but I be a layperson who does not know these sciences and sometimes it be best to rely on the wisdom of real scholars...)

Asalamu alaykum,

Additional proof for the ruling of segregation from Qur'an and Sunnah is as follows:

The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are:

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home:

‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq."

We know that the intermingling, mixing and crowding together of men and women is part of today’s unavoidable yet regrettable affliction in most places, such as markets, hospitals, colleges, etc., but:

· We will not willfully choose or accept mixing and crowding, particularly in religious classes and council meetings in Islamic Centers. (www.islamqa.com)

i.e. when possible we enforce segregation, when impossible we do our best to avoid it, as we all know the great harms in free mixing. See here http://islamqa.com/en/ref/1200/mixing for such examples. It is worth enforcing segregation wherever possible, even 2 hours..for in this 2 hours, it is enough for Shaytan to lead someone astray, and we should prevent evil wherever possible.

Allah swt wants to make it easy for us. Yes if there was no segregation enforced it would test our faith, yet many would fall into haram due to their weakness of faith, and Allah swt wants to protect us from falling into evils such as adultery, forbidden relationships etc., by cutting off the route to such evils by enforcing segregation. Allah swt knows how we are weak, and knows that once we follow one footstep of Shaytan, the rest become easier to follow. Wherever possible, we should therefore avoid trials and temptations which may lead us away from Allah's swt pleasure.

The prevention of such problems in society is better than the cure which has to be found when problems in society result due to this free mixing. If one follows Islam there is no need for find the cure for adultery, abortions/teenage pregnancies, fornication, for we prevent these evils from occuring in the first place. We are unable to follow the steps of Shaytan if the very beginning step towards evil i.e. free mixing is cut off.

@ You, in the second ayah you quoted, the word "khimar" is used, meaning head covering. Finding a marriage partner doesn't mean ignoring the rules of segregation...e.g. we shouldn't mix in work places or anywhere else in order to find a spouse, get to know someone etc. We can ask those who are trustworthy if they know anyone suitable, a meeting should then be arranged with the Wali/mahram present etc. so as to avoid any fitnah and follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Hope that helps insha'allah.And Allah swt knows best.

Wa alaykum asalam.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

Or the other way around - there are special circumstances for the mosque as it is an elevated place where you are supposed to focus on God...

It is just like you are not supposed to conduct business within the bounds of the mosque... business is not haraam and can be a noble thing, but doing it within the confines of the mosque is not always appreciated. (not sure what the rulings under i'tkaaf are though...)

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

@ You, in the second ayah you quoted, the word "khimar" is used, meaning head covering. Finding a marriage partner doesn't mean ignoring the rules of segregation...e.g. we shouldn't mix in work places or anywhere else in order to find a spouse, get to know someone etc. We can ask those who are trustworthy if they know anyone suitable, a meeting should then be arranged with the Wali/mahram present etc. so as to avoid any fitnah and follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Hope that helps insha'allah.And Allah swt knows best.

Wa alaykum asalam.

I have hread/been told about the meaning of khimar and I accept it as is, but it seems a little... implicit. I was always taught that the fardh acts in the qur'an are those that are there explicitly stated without any doubt in meaning.

For instance, a question that arises for me is why would a woman cover her hair but not the rest of her body? the implicit nature of it all leaves questions open for me. But I am not a woman and do not have to cover my hair, so it is no big deal to me.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Finding a marriage partner doesn't mean ignoring the rules of segregation...e.g. we shouldn't mix in work places or anywhere else in order to find a spouse, get to know someone etc. We can ask those who are trustworthy if they know anyone suitable, a meeting should then be arranged with the Wali/mahram present etc. so as to avoid any fitnah and follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Not quite as simple as that - There is a hadith about the guy who was asked to go and see the woman he was intended to marry. He did not go with someone, he hid nearby to see how she interacted with the people around her... and then there is the instance when the prophet was invited for a meal while Hadhrat Aaisha Siddeeqa (ra) was in his presence. He refused to attend three times - that was until she was also invited to the same meal.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home:

‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq."

Can I also offer this as proof against segregation? If it was not allowed, the Prophet of Allah would take no half measures. Instead he required modesty.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

We know that the intermingling, mixing and crowding together of men and women is part of today’s unavoidable yet regrettable affliction in most places, such as markets, hospitals, colleges, etc., but:

There were markets and medical situations at the time of the Prophet too - and it is known that the women of the household of the Prophet too part in the medical side at the time of war. Would calling it unfortunate can in a way be mocking their sunnah.

Asalamu alaykum,

All I'm going to say is that the majority of the info is from one scholar who fears Allah swt. To claim that the one who says unavoidable freemixing is unfortunate is mocking the Sunnah is a dangerous statement to make, considering the views of the prominent Scholars. We cannot interpret the Ahadith and Aayat ourselves based on our opinions, we will be accountable for everything that we do or say.

Regarding covering of the complete body & hair, there is a consensus of the Scholars that the covering of everything except the face, hands and feet is fard. They differed on whether covering the face, hands and feet is fard.

Also please give exact references to the ahadith you mentioned. Jazakum Allah khyrn.

Wa alaykum asalam

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Asalamu alaykum,

All I'm going to say is that the majority of the info is from one scholar who fears Allah swt. To claim that the one who says unavoidable freemixing is unfortunate is mocking the Sunnah is a dangerous statement to make, considering the views of the prominent Scholars. We cannot interpret the Ahadith and Aayat ourselves based on our opinions, we will be accountable for everything that we do or say.

My apologies - I find it too easy to be rude and dismissive sometimes, especially when I am pondering an issue over. Just pointing my thoughts out makes it easier for them to be combatted by others, allowing them to find the flaws I missed.

Avoiding unnecessary free mixing etc is a good thing and the veil and segregation is a sunnah that was accorded afaik to the wives of the holy Prophet as a special status - emulating it can be a very good thing indeed as it is emulating some of the very best people who have ever existed.

However what I am saying is that apart from that (which is not a ruling for a preference), segregation is used as a means to easily follow the rules of modesty etc as the women then do not need to do as much. It is a cultural practice, but one which has its roots in religious pragmatism.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Regarding covering of the complete body & hair, there is a consensus of the Scholars that the covering of everything except the face, hands and feet is fard. They differed on whether covering the face, hands and feet is fard.

As I said, I accept that, but I am just clueless (and not understanding of) as to how it was derived. Either way, it is a different topic.

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Also please give exact references to the ahadith you mentioned. Jazakum Allah khyrn.

I assume you mean where I mentioned "medical side at the time of war" ? From Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 393:

Narrated Anas:

When it was the day of Uhud, the people left the Prophet while Abu Talha was in front of the Prophet shielding him with his leather shield. Abu Talha was a skillful archer who used to shoot violently. He broke two or three arrow bows on that day. If a man carrying a quiver full of arrows passed by, the Prophet would say (to him), put (scatter) its contents for Abu Talha." The Prophet would raise his head to look at the enemy, whereupon Abu Talha would say, "Let my father and mother be sacrificed for you ! Do not raise your head, lest an arrow of the enemy should hit you. (Let) my neck (be struck) rather than your neck." I saw 'Aisha, the daughter of Abu Bakr, and Um Sulaim rolling up their dresses so that I saw their leg-bangles while they were carrying water skins on their backs and emptying them in the mouths of the (wounded) people. They would return to refill them and again empty them in the mouths of the (wounded) people. The sword fell from Abu Talha's hand twice or thrice (on that day).

It could however be argued that this was a task of necessity and not applicable in the normal case. (and yes, there may have been a hint of facetiousness in my previous post...)

Asalamu alaykum,

BarakAllahu feek, apology accepted. Try reading Tafsir and/or learning the Arabic language insha'Allah it should help in understanding how the rulings were derived...as well as Fiqh itself of course.

Jazakum Allah khyrn for the hadith. I also meant the other hadith/story from Seerah where you mentioned the meal the Prophet salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was invited to.

Wasalam

UniteTheUmmah wrote:

Jazakum Allah khyrn for the hadith. I also meant the other hadith/story from Seerah where you mentioned the meal the Prophet salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was invited to.

sahih muslim, kitab al ashriba and it was narrated by anas bin malik radiAllahu anhu

the exact hadith is here:

Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had a neighbour who was Persian (by descent), and he was expert in the preparation of soup. He prepared (soup) for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and then came to him to invite him (to that feast). He (Allah's Messenger) said: Here is 'A'isha also (and you should also invite her to the food). He said: No. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) also said: No (then I cannot join the feast). He returned inviting him, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: She is also there (i.e. 'A'isha should also be invited). He said: No. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) also said: No (and declined his offer). He returned again to invite him and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) again said: She is also there. He (the host) said: "Yes" for the third time. Then he accepted his invitation, and both of them set out until they came to his house.

you should hear the hadith in arabic, its so beautiful and funny, subhan'Allah.

Thanks for quoting that - I was looking for it and could not remember where I read it. link to a translation of the book by USC.

Asalamu alaykum,

That doesn't necessarily mean they sat together etc? Anyway, insha'Allah khyr. Allah knows best.

Wasalam

From Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Um 'Atiya:

We used to be ordered to come out on the Day of 'Id and even bring out the virgin girls from their houses and menstruating women so that they might stand behind the men and say Takbir along with them and invoke Allah along with them and hope for the blessings of that day and for purification from sins.

You wrote:

From Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Um 'Atiya:

We used to be ordered to come out on the Day of 'Id and even bring out the virgin girls from their houses and menstruating women so that they might stand behind the men and say Takbir along with them and invoke Allah along with them and hope for the blessings of that day and for purification from sins.

That hadith mentions segregation in a mosque, no?

Hey, I do not have to stick to one side, do I? It's not like this is a real debate where the purpose is to "win".

There are other narrations that do and this one does not discount it either.

The point of this was not to discuss segregation as from ahadith it can be seen that the wives of the Prophet were given a special status, but about being ordered to attend something which I presume could potentially have been in a mosque... I could find no better topic to quote this in.

Re special status - From Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet stayed for three days between Khaibar and Medina, and there he consummated his marriage to Safiyya bint Huyai. I invited the Muslims to the wedding banquet in which neither meat nor bread was offered. He ordered for leather dining-sheets to be spread, and dates, dried yoghurt and butter were laid on it, and that was the Prophet's wedding banquet. The Muslims wondered, "Is she (Saffiyya) considered as his wife or his slave girl?" Then they said, "If he orders her to veil herself, she will be one of the mothers of the Believers; but if he does not order her to veil herself, she will be a slave girl. So when the Prophet proceeded from there, he spared her a space behind him (on his she-camel) and put a screening veil between her and the people.

So special status and all that.

PS with this hadith I am uncertain to the meaning of the veil - wether it means face covering, or it means something more.