"Omrow" wrote:

Saints love songs. Thats why they are Saints.

You hardly ever fail to put a smile/laugh on my face. Thats why you're Omrow.

Salam

Thank you Wood. Anything for a tiger.

Muslim Sister. Would you please get to the "how" bit.

Making a sin list is nice.

But people also need a "fix it list" as well.

Omrow

"Omrow" wrote:

But people also need a "fix it list" as well.

Does she look like Bob The Builder to you? :roll:

Salam

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

Does she look like Bob The Builder to you?

If she did, then she would certainly be a holy Bob.

Or, Noble Bob.

Or, just a pure 'nob.

Omrow

"MuslimSister" wrote:

We have countless examples of people in history who only focused on the exterior (Salaah, charity etc ) and neglected their interior and as a result their actions were considered pointless in the eyes of Allah (swt).

Purifying the heart, is equally if not more important then external ritualistic worship. It is something that we should not neglect.

I read in a seerah of the prophet the following:

There is no good in religion when there is no prayer, He who wants to speak to his lord, let him pray and he who want his lord to speak to him, let him read the quran. (sorry no reference)

I happen to agree with this, the problem is that as human we have limitation, so we never know who has a clean heart or not as none of us have the power of the unseen. But on the question of purifying ourselves, i believe that the ritual acts you talk about play the most important role, infact it IMO is the foundation too our imaam. The reason the muslims are suffering today is due to teh fact is that people will read the quran and not know what they reading and people will pray and not know why and what they reading, which negate the saying above. This too me is the paramount reason that muslims are suffering, all these new fads that come into religion IMO don't solve anything. We just need to cement our foundation, it a case of many trying to run before they can walk.

she didnt say neglect the FARD

all she said was focus on purifying the heart too

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

she didnt say neglect the FARD

all she said was focus on purifying the heart too

Are you intent on missing the point with all my messages today :roll:

I was just saying the fard and the purifying bit are interlink and when done probably the heart will be clean, they IMO are the same. Which I thought you sis didn't really mention.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Salaam

Purifying the heart, is equally if not more important then external ritualistic worship. It is something that we should not neglect.

Wasalaam

i think yuit muslim sis is saying that it is necessary to purify the heart only then the fard (rituals) can be performed with their true meaning - a point i agree with so she is not saying purification and fard are the same unless one has already reached the purification stage plus performs the rituals

so one can perform rituals but without purification of the heart that is all they become a set of rituals

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Salaam

Purifying the heart, is equally if not more important then external ritualistic worship. It is something that we should not neglect.

Wasalaam

That's a fantastic explanation of Sufism

"seema*" wrote:

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Salaam

Purifying the heart, is equally if not more important then external ritualistic worship. It is something that we should not neglect.

Wasalaam

i think yuit muslim sis is saying that it is necessary to purify the heart only then the fard (rituals) can be performed with their true meaning - a point i agree with so she is not saying purification and fard are the same unless one has already reached the purification stage plus performs the rituals

so one can perform rituals but without purification of the heart that is all they become a set of rituals

I get what you trying to say sis, but too me this is really then a question of imaan. But the main point i was trying to make was on ritual acts themselves as a form of purifying ourselves. Because I not sure what action people talk about when they talk about purifying the heart?

On the ritual acts, the way i look at it is, that the ritual act are very neglected in our times, so much so, you can walk into the mosque during prayer time and ask some of the people who prayed to explain the meaning of Surah Fatiha, which is read a minimum of at least 17 time in one day and people will not know it, trust me i tried it. Same with Quran, children in the mosque will spend 10 years learning the quran, but at the end of it, if you were to ask them what of the quran that they understood, you will normally get a negative response.

"yuit" wrote:

I was just saying the fard and the purifying bit are interlink and when done probably the heart will be clean, they IMO are the same. .

fard acts dont always purify the heart

many people pray but their minds are elswhere

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

I was just saying the fard and the purifying bit are interlink and when done probably the heart will be clean, they IMO are the same. .

fard acts dont always purify the heart

many people pray but their minds are elswhere

Which is the point i getting at, about the lack of understanding of them, i give up on the subject :roll:

Plus on not being able to focus on namaaz, i was told this really good hadith which mention that it near impossible for your mind not to wander and when Hazrat Ali (ra) tried he failed. I would put the hadith up, but as no one seem to be reading or understanding my post, so i think i will not bother. :roll:

The intention matters alot.

However even just the act does have benefits. one bein you are not sinning. two you thin of your duties a bit more, as you have to attend the stuff... three you need to make time, so there is a benefit there awell.

Saying that, it does not mean you are a saint if yo do practice Islam. The ehart matters alot.

Doing the acts helps. It stops some sinning.

calm down yuit :roll:

ur argument basically is that ritual acts purify the heart

anyways I'll leave this thread now-its not one of my expertise

I'll let madam answer herself

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

calm down yuit :roll:

ur argument basically is that ritual acts purify the heart

anyways I'll leave this thread now-its not one of my expertise

I'll let madam answer herself

I am calm, just a tad bit annoyed with your stupidity

Is it me, or do people get all defensive when they think someone attacking sufism.

"yuit" wrote:

Is it me, or do people get all defensive when they think someone attacking sufism.

Its just u :roll:

You can diss it all u want. There is no point to practsing Islam without a clean heart

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

Is it me, or do people get all defensive when they think someone attacking sufism.

Its just u :roll:

You can diss it all u want. There is no point to practsing Islam without a clean heart

I ain't dissing nothing, but i just find it interesting when sufism is attack or question, all the sufi tendancy normally go out of the window.

Actually there IS still a point.

you are following the rules layed down for you.

You may not get as much benefit, but there will be some.

You have heard the story of dhikr? if in a gathering even of some individuals do not have a good intention, they will still benefit.

"Admin" wrote:

You have heard the story of dhikr? if in a gathering even of some individuals do not have a good intention, they will still benefit.

tru

but I also know the story of the scholar, rich man who gave in charity and man who did jihad but they all still went to hell

bottom line: it's a balance of [b]both[/b] that makes us successful in this life and the Hereafter inshaAllah.

yup

you cant be spiritual without practical anyway

all spiritual leaders i have met, includin my 2 Shaykhs (alth im only allowed 1 lol), have asked me to fulfill my farz 1st

people love to attack spiritualism, but have no understanding of it. or pick up on the people who dont practise it in its entirity or people who are not representitive.

Im all for Spiritualism, Sufism and Tassawuff Alhamdulillah. whether people dont practice it properly is not going to hinder my thoughts on it (could say the same for practical side of Islam, but that would be wrong)

I am all for Spiritualism, its plays a really important part. But it just my opinion that people at time overlook the important of the fard acts by simply thinking because they doing it, everything will automatically be alright, without knowing the reason the benefits and most importantly not gaining a understanding on what they exactly doing. For there too be true spirituality, people need to go back to basic first, because it begins with the fards acts. Very few people in the muslim community know the essense of the quran and loads of us neglect our salah.

Also I don't have anything against Sufism, hayder right we shouldn't look at the bad apple and associate them with sufism, but saying that the same should be said of all groups as well. It should never be about right and wrong IMO. There good in all aspect of islam and groups within, just depend if we willing to see them.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

The likes of Imam Ghazali have compiled many books on how recognise the sin and how to “fix it”. And every internal sin is “fixed” in a different way.

However, generally speaking Dhikr (remembrance) of Allah, Fasting, doing good deeds in the absence of witnesses all purify the heart…and one should also keep away from those things that harden the heart e,g sins, over eating, over sleeping, bad company, sitting in gatherings where the name of God is not mentioned, and laughing too much…etc etc

True, i never misunderstood your point, all i was stating was that fard act are neglected and that where i personally see the problem of them just becoming ritual acts. Too me there no better way of remembering Allah (swt) then reading the words in the Quran. It really should be the basis of all our action. It is really what should drive us too do the things you mention.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

Too me there no better way of remembering Allah (swt) then reading the word in the Quran. It really should be the basis of all our action. It is really what should drive us too do the things you mention.

I sort of understand where you're coming from..

But say, by nature one is a predominantly angry person…or one who bears grudges in his/her heart and finds it hard to forgive…or someone who is a proud …or someone who is always intensely envious of others.

How can the salaah rid such an individual of those dangerous characteristics?

Well salah too me is about patience and it really should be more of a spirtual act, Because the Prophet said He who wants to speak to his lord should pray and we also should pray as if we can see Allah swt and if not, the fact that he can see us. Too me if there a problem with agression, maybe stay longer in prayer read a specific surah. Too me if someone is angry, there a good chance they will remain angry, because i seen these people fast and still pick fight with everyone, i seen these people straight after doing dhikr, flipping at people. It may just be apart of there nature. But in history you have people like Hazrat Umar (ra) who transform themselves, but it was done with patience. Reading and reflecting on the Quran, trying to live by it and all the things you mention doing should inshallah come to pass.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

salaam

Of course, both are important-Imam Malik, founder of the Maliki school, that "he who practices Tasawwuf without learning Sacred Law corrupts his faith, while he who learns Sacred Law without practicing Tasawwuf corrupts himself. Only he who combines the two proves true."

Wasalaam

Yeah, you beat me to it (Shaykh ul Islam on "who are the Auliya Allah RA").

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Salaam

Anger is a natural trait, we can not totally get rid of it...but it can be controlled…the way a wild dog, or horse is controlled.

We are told that the “strong man can control his temper”.

Anger is permissible, only when it is for the sake of Allah (swt) and His Rasool (saw)…that is when Hadrat Umar (ra) conveyed his anger.

You’ve said yourself that you’ve seen such people do Dhikr and yet flip at people…

You have Sheikh Humza Yusuf’s book on “Purification of the heart”…read the chapter on “Anger” and also Imam Ghazali’s work on this topic….you’ll find that the treatment is not necessarily found in Salaah, Dhikr or recitation of the Qur’an…

Pride, Envy, Anger, hatred etc etc all have specific treatments, that we must know about.

Wasalaam

Actually i gve that book to a friend who has seriously anger problem, the man can start a fight in a empty room. But though he love the way the book indentified the problems, he couldn't relate to the solution. Too be honest I can't remember them off the top of my head as he still got the books, but i was thinking something similar when i read it.

On the people who get angry even after dhikr, too be honest it not always for the sake of islam, don't really want to go into that point really so I won't.

I won't agrue about the fact that all these problem require different solution, but saying that, if as muslims people can't implement the basic, it is going to be near impossible IMO for them to implement anything esle, that what i have found personally. It is IMO a case of many people running before they can walk.