As far as I'm concerned he didn't actively say the Shahada, because he was about to and Abu Jahl made fun of him, Allah ho Alim whether he actually believed that only Allah had the right to be worshipped.

However (going back to my last post)

as i googled the words "abu talib muslim" this is the first link i got and clicked on http://smma59.wordpress.com/2006/11/18/was-abu-talib-as-a-kafir/

from this it says non-Shia's believe he died a pagan and those above quoted hadith are not valid.

and that if he did say he follows Abdul Muttalibs religion then he died a muslim as Abdul Muttalib believed in the religion of Ibrahim AS.

No idea. I *think* it is accepted that he did not accept islam, but as The Lamp says, God knows best.

The Lamp wrote:

As far as I'm concerned

You mean "know" instead of concerned I think... (concerned gives off a vibe...)

He was a believer in God and His Prophet SAW.

He didn't say shahadah but at the time he passed away, saying the shahadah was not a legally binding component of faith. Faith has two elements, one that you believe with the heart and two that you testify with the tongue (or one roti and two pani ) however in the time when Hadrat Abu Talib passed away the second element wasn't legally binding.

Sorry s.b.f its in urdu but others may benefit from it.

when ive watched it, i might make notes and post them on here for u

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj_cmxZc9a4]

We Shias believe Abu Talib (as) was a true believer in Allah (swt) and Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Those who hated his son Imam Ali (as) they used to fabriate things against Abu Talib. They even went to wars with Imam Ali as).

Jay K gave a verse of Quran but we Shia Muslims do not accept that this verse came regarding Abu Talib (as). We believe Prophet (pbuh) prayed for his uncle and even read his Namaz-i-Janaza the funeral prayer. Prophet (pbuh) buried Abu Talib (as) just like he buried his wife Khadija (as).

I'll give you a Shia website which gives evidence in 4 pages on Abu Talib's faith.

I advise that you brothers and sisters take precaution because you may be shocked by some research.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5a/

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5a/4.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5a/5.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5a/6.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5a/7.html

Whether Abu Talib was a muslim or not, what has that have anything to do with our lives right now.

Jesus Christ !!!

What matters is our belief in the God, in His Holy book the Quran, in His Holy Prophet, in the pillars of Islam and living a pious and righterous life.

And, also to beware of Wahhabis and Salafies. They cannot teach you anything except how to fly planes and crash them into buildings.

Idiots.

Omrow wrote:

Whether Abu Talib was a muslim or not, what has that have anything to do with our lives right now.

Jesus Christ !!!

What matters is our belief in the God, in His Holy book the Quran, in His Holy Prophet, in the pillars of Islam and living a pious and righterous life.

And, also to beware of Wahhabis and Salafies. They cannot teach you anything except how to fly planes and crash them into buildings.

Idiots.

i dont understand why people have SUCH a hatred of wahhabis. at the end of the day they are muslims, not jews. they belive in allah and the messenger. they belive in the quran. they may have slightly different views but that isnt a reason to hate em isit?

idi wrote:

...at the end of the day they are muslims, not jews...

- I am sure you should not hate jews for the sake of it either...

You wrote:

idi wrote:

...at the end of the day they are muslims, not jews...

- I am sure you should not hate jews for the sake of it either...

i was gonna flag that up too.

Idi, I'm sorry but you sounded like such a cock saying that. Respect all People of the Book.

oopppss. i didnt mean 4 it 2 come out like that. i didnt mean it in a disrespectful way at all. i just meant that thier muslims, and they shouldnt b hated. sowiii if i offended any1

It would de3pend on the individual - if the individual is takfiri, especially about you, chances are you will not appreciate the persons company all that much.

s.b.f wrote:

Omrow wrote:

Whether Abu Talib was a muslim or not, what has that have anything to do with our lives right now.

So? I don't see how it has anything to do with our lives right now but doesn't mean we can't ask questions if we don't understand.

I think his point is that there is no use arguing about it (as some people do - not on here alhamdulillah).

Abu Talib (ra) believed in Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (saw). So yes, he was a Muslim.

Abu Talib read Nikah of Prophet (pbuh) and Hazrat Khadija (as). How can a Kafir conduct a marriage ceremony of last messenger (pbuh).

We Shia Muslims believe he was a Muslim. But he decided to hide his faith in Taqiyya to protect Islam in its early day. Taqiyya is allowed by Quran and Hadith if it serves Allah.

malik wrote:

We Shia Muslims believe he was a Muslim. But he decided to hide his faith in Taqiyya to protect Islam in its early day. Taqiyya is allowed by Quran and Hadith if it serves Allah.

Here is the thing though - you can't lie for no reason. Nor because it makes things easier but only in situations that demands it such as to save your life.

Another problem with the shia view on taqiyyah is that it allows your leaders to lie to you meaning you cannot take what they say with any credibility.

Take for instance the quotes of Imam Ali (ra) banning mut'ah for all time. The shia say "Oh but he was doing taqiyyah" in order to get around the problems this causes them.

You wrote:

malik wrote:

We Shia Muslims believe he was a Muslim. But he decided to hide his faith in Taqiyya to protect Islam in its early day. Taqiyya is allowed by Quran and Hadith if it serves Allah.

Here is the thing though - you can't lie for no reason. Nor because it makes things easier but only in situations that demands it such as to save your life.

Another problem with the shia view on taqiyyah is that it allows your leaders to lie to you meaning you cannot take what they say with any credibility.

Take for instance the quotes of Imam Ali (ra) banning mut'ah for all time. The shia say "Oh but he was doing taqiyyah" in order to get around the problems this causes them.

Imam Ali (as) does not authoruty to ban what the Prophet (pbuh) allowed. No Imam can do that. Imam Jafar said "what is made halal by Muhammad (pbuh) is halal till day of judgement and what is made haram by Muhammad (pbuh) is haram till the judgement. If you find a report contradictory to this then throw it against the wall."

If you read books by Ayatollahs (ra) you will find they never say Imam Ali (as) forbade Mutah out of taqiyya. They say this saying was fabricated. It is false. Taqiyya is an Islamic concept. Abu Talib (as) did taqiyya not for himself but he di it for Allah and His Prophet (pbuh). He did not do it to save his own life. His Taqiyya was for noblest of causes ie Islam.

Mutah was banned by second caliph Umar. He said I am banning it. The first caliph did not ban it. If Abu Bakr had banned Mutah, there would have been no need for Umar to ban it. Imam Ali (as) was saddened by Umar's ban on temporary marriage. He said that had Umar not forbade Mutah to Sunnis, then only the most evil people would have committed zinah. Muslimswould have been saved from comiiting sinful act. Imam Ali's (as) concern proved right. Many of our youth and adults commit fornication because they feel they have no choice. If they only knew that Allah (swt) has given them choice. Umar should not have denied them their right of Mutah.

Our problem with Umar is that he had no authority to ban what Prophet (pbuh) allowed. That is why we do not follow him. we follow only Imam Ali (as) and the 11 Imams (as) because they stuck to Sunna of Prophet (as). No one else protected the true Islam like they did.

malik wrote:

He did not do it to save his own life. His Taqiyya was for noblest of causes ie Islam.

Yet his sons were willing to die for what they believed to be good and true... Why do you hold Imam Ali to be less than that? I don't.

I do not think Imam Ali (ra) would compromise when it came to deciding between right and wrong.

Just because one person choses to do an Islamic act does not mean eveyone has to do it.
For example, parents of one companion Ammar Yasir (ra) chose to die for Islam when they were captured and tortured by Abu Sufyan (LA). But Ammar (ra) chose taqiyya to save his life.

Any muslim can chose any of the the options if Islam provides them. Taqiyya is a choice given by Islam. It is not an order.

Imam Ali (as) openly declared his Islam at the age of 10. His father Abu Talib (as) chose to hide his faith. I think he did taqiyya because he was told to do so under the direction of his nephew the Holy Prophet (pbuh). His taqiyya benefitted Islam in its early days when it was threatened by all sides and when Allah had not yet permitted Jihad.

You wrote:

malik wrote:

He did not do it to save his own life. His Taqiyya was for noblest of causes ie Islam.

Yet his sons were willing to die for what they believed to be good and true... Why do you hold Imam Ali to be less than that? I don't.

I beleive Malik was referring to Abu Talib not Imam Ali RA. Presumably the noble causes were to retain his influence over Quraish and Bani Hashim and use them to protect the muslims. Or am I off the mark?

Dawud wrote:

You wrote:

malik wrote:

He did not do it to save his own life. His Taqiyya was for noblest of causes ie Islam.

Yet his sons were willing to die for what they believed to be good and true... Why do you hold Imam Ali to be less than that? I don't.

I beleive Malik was referring to Abu Talib not Imam Ali RA.

Presumably the noble causes were to retain his influence over Quraish and Bani Hashim and use them to protect the muslims. Or am I off the mark?

You are correct Dawud.

How on earth could the Boss pick that quote out of context and make a big meal out of it.

I just dont know.

Maybe Ramadan is getting to his head.

malik wrote:

Abu Sufyan (LA)

What does LA mean?

I have heard of RA but not LA.

I don't see how taqiyyah would have been useful on the death-bed...

(and I had gone off topic into other issues)

Omrow wrote:

malik wrote:

Abu Sufyan (LA)

What does LA mean?

I have heard of RA but not LA.

he means:

L = laanat/curse

A = Allah

God's curse upon Abu Sufyan (ra) maadhAllah

s.b.f wrote:

You wrote:

I don't see how taqiyyah would have been useful on the death-bed...

What does taqiyyah mean?

the act of concealing faith due to fear

malik wrote:

Abu Talib read Nikah of Prophet (pbuh) and Hazrat Khadija (as). How can a Kafir conduct a marriage ceremony of last messenger (pbuh).

That marriage occurred before the Prophet received his first revelation, so is irrelevant to this.

And this conversation is irrelevant to us.

So...