"Admin" wrote:

But would you say to her she may aswell remove the scarf?
. . .

so we have no right to criticise them.

. . .
Just saying: 'Get some shame u slag' will not get you anywhere. It will actually discourage the person from following Islam.

I wudnt tell her to remove the scarf - no. But i wud ask her whats the point of wearing the scarf when you are showing something far more attractive than your hair?!

I think constructive criticism is infact needed. You may think telling her to get shame is attacking her and not constructive but i think harsh words can be just as constructive as saying it with honeyed words.

lol! I dont think I wud call her a slag!! That is vulgar and crude and a darkened word. Blatantly swearing at her isnt gonna achieve anything so no I wudnt call her a slag!

So you would just rephrase the retort of removing the scarf? (by making a sly dig at her rear)

Criticism of any kind on such delicate matters is not needed. encouragement is though.

Embarrassing the individual may have the opposite impact.

Remember at the end of the day the only people who can say anything to her are her parents.

"angel" wrote:

I diasgree with you, i think the soft approach is the most effective.

You may be right.

BUT

from my personal experience in this day and age the softly softly approach only works if the receivor RESPECTS the advisor. With me, too many of of my friends have had the softly soflty approach in regards to religion- they just smile and ignore me. It means that the old concept of respect in friendship, respect for his/her advice, for his/her opinion does not exist.

The crux of the issue is that in that people born and bred here have very very little respect. It simply does not exist. Here we are taught from childhood that listen to others views, and understand that others have different views, but no where are we taught to respect what others say when they say the right thing. Its all about listening and then arguing back with your opinion. If i thought ppl respected me and would value my kindly advice then sure it is the best method.

Even I have seen that many religious teachers explain issues depending on the student and give orders depending on the student. If the student is respectful of the teacher i have noticed that the order is given as a request, as a suggestion because even the slightest suggestion is fulfilled by the respectful student. On the otherhand those who lack respect have to be told explicitly that do this, come tomorrow at this time becuase a suggestion has no influence.

Similarly nowadays ppl dont want to hear whats good for them. Suggest to some1 softly that start praying, dont do drugs etc they grin and say i know its rong but im a sinner and they shrug it off. Give em and ultimatum that i cant be friends with a druggie, i wont sit by you if u miss the namaz time, it has a more effect.

Medieval; you can only take your approach if you have a right over the individual.

If its your daughter/wife you may do so, otherwise you are actually in the wrong by demanding something from someone you have no right over.

"Admin" wrote:

Medieval; you can only take your approach if you have a right over the individual.

If its your daughter/wife you may do so, otherwise you are actually in the wrong by demanding something from someone you have no right over.

Exactly...this girl at work asked me "do you think i am a slag" what came to mind was i dont know her that well and at the end of the day i cant judge her which is what i said to her exactly..later i noticed this other girl refered to her as a slag and you should have seen the look on her face she was heart-broken, this also gave me the chance to talk 2 her bout islam and introduce her to revival and give her a copy which she took gladly...so its not all bout tellin ppl off you gota go with the gentle approach.

angel obviously im not gonna go around shaming people at random and i wudnt use the harsh appraoch each and every time.

But admin i disagree with u.

In my view all muslims have a right over me and all non muslims aswell. The muslims have the right that if they do rong they should be corrected and advised and i also expect the same treatment infact i get same treatment. Non muslims deserve the invitation to islam, they deserve to know the truth.

If u look this opinion that i have no biznis in others affairs is a very british attitutude where peoples political, religious beliefs and affiliations are not thought to be the concerns of others. In fact in our Islam it is the collective responsibility to keep an eye on what others are doing religiously. In my view it is entirely my business what every1 else gets upto and it is entirely every1 elses biznis what i get up to.

This does not mean i go around divulging evry1s sins, nor that evry1 divulges my sins to the world but it means that evry1 should be ready to correct me when i err, and they shud be ready for me to correct them.

I KNOW this seems totally strange to many ppl but that is due to the fact that evry1 is cultured by the society that they grow up in. Alhamdulillah I think i have managed to abstain a fair amount from the british concept of privacy regarding religion but i understand that most ppl consider my nos nosy approach (!) to be out of place and unislamic but to me it is part of islam that we watch each other to help them on truth and protect them from falsehoods.

If I remember correctly, there is a Hadith when Hadhrat Abu Bakr Assidique scolded some other sahabies for not doing something.

The prophet asked Hadhrat ABu Bakr (ra) to ask them for forgiveness.

You have expectations of others. Not rights.

You do not be a good muslim because others have a right over you, but because its damanded of you.

So your nosy approach IS unislamic.

No my nosy approach is islamic.

Pls provide references to the incident about Hadrat Abu Bakr radhiyallahu anhu.

''This religion is naseeha'' It means we are to advise and recommend to each others. So actually yes we do have rights over others and others have rights over us.

You see I can sympathise with you admin. Because when you live in a society where such interference into anothers religious affairs is regarded as deeply taboo it is obvious that most of the population will go along with this view, even doing it subconscously.

Hence I would say that in general muslims in britain have a british concept that religion is a private affair indoctrinated, or subconsciously lodged inside their psyche. On this basis they find it strange when islam teaches a collective moral duty of society and community to maintain moral codes by advices and constructive condemnations. This does not mean taking the law into your own hands like honourkillings or mob beatings etc. But it means every1 has the right and infact is duty bound to constantly encourage others to truth and warn againstt falsehood.

Admin I sympathise with you and can fully understand why you probably wont understand this idea and inshaALLAH i will pray for you.

A way of explanation is that in saudia they have the religious police right? Now in a society where namaz time is a taboo time for anything other than namaz we see that shops are closed, people stop evrything and have to pray. This type of mass stopping of business and ordinary life and bowing to ALLAH Almighty is unimaginable in Britain because here religion is your own business, nothing to do with any1 else whereas in islam religion is community based. Every1 has to stop their stuff and proceed collectively to the mosque. In Saudia the population by and large accept this that evry1 stops their business and goes to masjid and by and large most ppl see little rong in others telling them to go to the masjid. Disagreeing with other issues of the religious police is another matter, but in itself the vvast majority would agree that stopping public life for salah is gud and stopping others from their own activities for salah is also good.

Basically we see the contrast between British approach and Saudi approach and by no means are saudia perfect but as an example we can see in muslim society that holds some vestiges of islam, it si accepted that islam is every1s affair.

Salaam

I have been reading through Medievals posts on this thread...and yep the points are medieval

1. women should not leave the house unless they absolutely have to
2. they HAVE to wear niqab
3. a woman who hasnt got hijab on means she is a bad muslim and we must tell her and wear the hijab!
4. woman cant wear trousers , astagfirullah! haram. tell her to go home straight away and put her jilbaab on!
5. if a man does not have a beard then he is bad muslim. and not just any beard but a full lemgth massive beard- then you are a good muslim.

bro- are you from the tablighi jamaat? i think you are...and thats not being disrespectful...its just that this is the kind of Islam they are taught: women home, niqab, beard. full stop!
[b]
regarding wearing jeans or trousers for a muslim woman. [/b]she can wear trousers/ jeans as long as they are loose and do not show the outlining of her legs and bum. Also her jumper/coat [b]has to cover[/b] her bum and go up to around the knees. now if she does this and is wearing a headscarf as well then [u]that is also an islamic dress because she is covered head to toe, her clothes are loose, they do not show the outline of her body, legs, bum, chest etc. she is a modest woman.[/u]

[b]This idea of wearing jeans is haram and unislamic and there is no point wearing a scarf ...is nonsense.[/b] if you wear jeans/trousers [u]as described above[/u] with a headscarf and loose clothing/jumper etc then absolutely nothing wrong wioth it. we need to stop being narrow minded, paki -mentality..that islam is just the way WE practise it.
[b]
NOT WEARING HEADSCRAF/HIJAB DOESNT MAKE YOU A BAD MSULIM![/b]
Many Muslim sisters I have come across who dont wear the hijab are good people, good practising people, knowledgable people of islam, read their salaat, good ettiqiettes...BUT due to weakness of Imaan are taking a bit longer to wear the hijab. They dont need the likes of Medieval to give them a lecture or an earful- they know what islam says, rules of hijab, they're working on it. They need support, encouragement, more hijabi-sisters as friends to offer practical advice- not mad mullahs looking down at them; this is what makes these kind of sisters run away from islam for good!

Men are too harsh on women nowadays. We dont have to wear a headscarf etc so we dont know how hard they must be finding it in this western society. Leave the advice to other practising hijabi sisters.

More and more sisters are starting to wear hijab nowadays, i have experienced this practically. There are many others who are just round the corner from making that decission to wear the headscarf for good...we need to be patient, understanding, approachable, not harsh.

wasalaam

People are slow on this forum, it obviously AbdulSamad with a new ID, it look like he couldn't stay away, so he ain't Tabligh Jamaat.

But saying that, I agree with him in the most on this subject. The problem with Hijab is that people focus too much on the headscarf, rather then the modesty position. People should when explaining Hijab, mention more about this as the fundamental issue in discussing the hijab. The point of modesty is losed with tight jeans, as too this day, I have not seen a modest pair on jeans on the market for women.

How you should go about telling someone who does it, is debatable IMO. As someone mention earlier, the person will have islam inside her, so it wrong too go on the offensive too much, but at the same time, you need to let her know that tight clothes go against the concept of Hijab and then let her have the time to understand and then implement any changes. The full on approach can be counter productive in this case.

"yuit" wrote:

People are slow on this forum, it obviously AbdulSamad with a new ID, it look like he couldn't stay away, so he ain't Tabligh Jamaat.

Thats what i thot not just sayin it cuz u said it but the "discourage women from mosques" made me think it was him and his style of writin and the large spaces between his paragraph's!

Salaam

When I was about 18- I was a bit lazy. My parents didn’t expect me to do anything. So I just occasionally washed up, hoovred and helped mum when I felt like it…

Both my grandmothers started to do my head in 24/7…when my family starts they can drive you crazy….they claimed that “I did absolutely nothing” and kept on comparing me to other girls. They just wouldn’t drop it….

Whenever people start on me I become extremely stubborn….it bugged me that they overlooked the work that I did do, and made out that I was the most laziest girl in the world….as a result I stopped doing the little housework that I did.

My cousin has the same nature as me…when people start on her, and speak to her in a harsh manner and do her head in she also becomes stubborn….we all know that if we give it “what’s the point of wearing a scarf if you’re gonna wear jeans” she’s just going to take her scarf off….she’s like that.

Harshness bears extremely heavily on the soul….the listener is more inclined to ignore the speaker EVEN if the harsh speaker is speaking Haq (truth).

If one was to talk to non-practising girls “harsh religious aunties” is the main reason why they have an issue with Islam….that too used to be my biggest reservation with becoming practising…. That approach makes people want to run away from Islam.

Condemnation is NOT what people need.

Wasalaam

Lol!

Revival Editor you are telling me to get out of paki mentality?

Brother I advise you most strongly to get out of the liberal 'islam' you are in. Which Alim ever said a woman strutting around in jeans is in hijab? Why are you talking rubbish? Answer me please?

Do you take pleasuer in spreading enlightened moderation or are you working for the forces of evil?

What exactly is your stance? And actually regarding women and mosques you will find that brelwis and salafis also teach they should sit at home?

I am from Ahlus sunnah wal jamaat.

People get out of this british way of thinking! Islam is not what you imagine it to be, it is the divine way ordained by ALLAH and His Chosen Servant salallahu alayhi wa sallam. You unfortunately have forgotten the medieval islam which produced the doctors, philosphers, architects, warriors and poets of islam.

Yes i am medievalist. Because it was in islams medieval age that seville, toledo, valencia, sicily, baghdad, bukhara were the centres of light and learning that illuminated the world. So get a brain ppl, and get out of ur warped and polluted thinking lol.

editor you do a great disservice and a lie upon the tablighi jamaat.

Actually when the jamaat goes out they do not mention beard, niqab, women at home - well atleast not any jamaat that i have come across.

I requets you to provide me with details of which jamaat persons you have come across who chat about niqab, and home, and beard. Please provide fone numbers and/or contact adresses so i can verify the truth of your claim.

From my experience of jamaat they talk about their 6 points. I dont recall niqab, beard, home being in any of those six points so pls enlighten me.

If infact I am rong and jamaat go around talking about beard, and niqab and women staying at home then i will be ready to apoligise. If on the other hand u dont provide me with any jamaat literature, or fone numbers or contact details from which i can conclude that jamaat talk abt those three topic then i can brand u an evil liar who deliberately maligns, abuses and degrades fellow muslims.

I await your respose with baited breath.

Medievalist are u Abdul Samad, remembering that it wrong to lie in islam, I will accept your answer as the truth as I willing to accept the word of a fellow muslim brother.

"yuit" wrote:

Medievalist are u Abdul Samad, remembering that it wrong to lie in islam, I will accept your answer as the truth as I willing to accept the word of a fellow muslim brother.

He is not Abdul Samad. We have never had an Abdul Samad!

What is yuit on about?

Abdus Samad means slave of the Eternal rite?

So . . .

Forget about it, it ain't even that important to me, it just that u stated that u live in birmingham and are going to study as a dentist in sheffield like AbdusSalamBiharwi did.

ur point is . . .?

AbdusSalam studied at the same mosque as me and is a very good friend of mine. he recommended I come here to sort you lot out; yeh he is going to sheffield aswell and its not surprising that we have similar stance because we have the same ustads.

acutally half the stuff im saying, im being instigated by him! But mashaALLAH he is a gud brother and I see he has tried a lot to straighten u ppl out. I think I should do something that he hasnt done and give u ppl a real invitation to come to our madrassah to meet with the ustads; then u will see where we are coming from?

and which madressah is this? u hav good points ere

Jamiat-us-Salam.

It is a centre of light and learning. An ocean of wisdom. A house of guidance and a fortress against deviation and perversion. The Madrassah is a producer of Heirs to Prophets alayhimus salaam, and produces Alimaat and Hafizaat who nurture th coming generations of Islam.

The Teachers are leaders in their fields. They are lovers of ALLAH and His Rasul salallahu alayhi wa sallam and are warriors against innovation and devitaion and inviters to truth and light. They are fountains of knowledge from whom the students drink to their fill, they are oasis of peace and tranquility in the burning wilderness. They are the transmitters of Qaal ALLAH and Qaala Rasulullahi salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

"Medievalist" wrote:

Jamiat-us-Salam.

It is a centre of light and learning. [b]An ocean of wisdom[/b]. A house of guidance and a [b]fortress against deviation and perversion[/b]. The Madrassah is a producer of Heirs to Prophets alayhimus salaam, and produces Alimaat and Hafizaat who nurture th coming generations of Islam.

The Teachers are leaders in their fields. They are lovers of ALLAH and His Rasul salallahu alayhi wa sallam and are warriors against innovation and devitaion and inviters to truth and light. T[b]hey are fountains of knowledge from whom the students drink to their fill, they are oasis of peace and tranquility in the burning wilderness.[/b] They are the transmitters of Qaal ALLAH and Qaala Rasulullahi salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

I guess this is the place Abdus and you get your metaphors from.

"Medievalist" wrote:

Lol!

Revival Editor you are telling me to get out of paki mentality?

Brother I advise you most strongly to get out of the liberal 'islam' you are in. Which Alim ever said a woman strutting around in jeans is in hijab? Why are you talking rubbish? Answer me please?

Do you take pleasuer in spreading enlightened moderation or are you working for the forces of evil?

What exactly is your stance? And actually regarding women and mosques you will find that brelwis and salafis also teach they should sit at home?

I am from Ahlus sunnah wal jamaat.

People get out of this british way of thinking! Islam is not what you imagine it to be, it is the divine way ordained by ALLAH and His Chosen Servant salallahu alayhi wa sallam. You unfortunately have forgotten the medieval islam which produced the doctors, philosphers, architects, warriors and poets of islam.

Yes i am medievalist. Because it was in islams medieval age that seville, toledo, valencia, sicily, baghdad, bukhara were the centres of light and learning that illuminated the world. So get a brain ppl, and get out of ur warped and polluted thinking lol.

So its liberal to say that a woman can wear loose trousers/jeans that dont show the outline of the body and she wears a hijab. You obviously do not understand the dress code in islam. Its not just niqab, headscarf, jilbaab, salwaar kameez you know? You can wear anything that fulfills the criteria...and i have mentioned the islamic criteria to you . Of course if she wears TIGHT jeans that makes it unislamic and is not hijab.

so you are with tablighi jamaat...thats why you are so offended...i rest my case.
Only tablighi jamaat say women shouldnt attend mosques which is ludicrous. They have negative view of women in islam. If others also say the same liek brelwis, salfis then again they are misguided on this issue. This is not liberal Islam , this is TRUE Islam! The history of Islam was revolutionary , your views take us back to the dark ages!

What does the Quran and sunnah say about women attending the mosques?
There is no specific mention about the entry of women in the mosques, but Sûrah Al Jumma (Al Jumma = assembly) states:
[b]
" O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the day of assembly) hasten earnestly to the remembrance of God....." (62-9)[/b]

Are the believers only men?
Surely not, there is no gender difference between men and women on the question of worshiping the Creator.

However, mention is made in the Hadith about whether women should be denied access to the Mosque or not. In "Kitabul Juma", the book of Friday Prayer of Imam Bukhari who wrote two centuries after the death of the Prophet, he quoted the hadith:
[b]"Do not forbid the Mosques to the women of Allah"[/b]

Half a century later (300H), Imam Nassa'i in his book " Al-Sunnan" wrote in the chapter of "Al- Masjid" about the specification of the rows between men and women and how far they should be from each other. An indication that facilities for women to pray should be provided in the mosques. Imam Nassa'i quoted the prophet as saying:
[b]
"When a woman asks authorization from one of you to go the mosque, let him grant it to her."[/b]
This is Ahlus Sunnah my friend.

If you are offended by my views on tablighi Jamaat then I apologise. My point is not against any jamaat its against the views you have, which are damaging Islam.

wasalaam

"Medievalist" wrote:

Jamiat-us-Salam.

It is a centre of light and learning. An ocean of wisdom. A house of guidance and a fortress against deviation and perversion. The Madrassah is a producer of Heirs to Prophets alayhimus salaam, and produces Alimaat and Hafizaat who nurture th coming generations of Islam.

The Teachers are leaders in their fields. They are lovers of ALLAH and His Rasul salallahu alayhi wa sallam and are warriors against innovation and devitaion and inviters to truth and light. They are fountains of knowledge from whom the students drink to their fill, they are oasis of peace and tranquility in the burning wilderness. They are the transmitters of Qaal ALLAH and Qaala Rasulullahi salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

and where is dis madressah?

"Medievalist" wrote:

acutally half the stuff im saying, im being instigated by him! But mashaALLAH he is a gud brother and I see he has tried a lot to [b]straighten u ppl out[/b]. I think I should do something that he hasnt done and give u ppl a real invitation to come to our madrassah to meet with the ustads; then u will see where we are coming from?

lol

so we are all misguided because we dont follow your rigid, anti-women view of Islam.
Alhamdulillah we have bright and educated ppl on this forum from all groups. everyone follows their own great scholars. We disagree on many issues and that is the beauty of Islam. Its not surprising you put us all in one group, we disagree with you so we are wrong, misguided- we need your advice...and that can only be done by attending your glorious madrassa. I DONT THINK SO!

"kuri/19" wrote:

and where is dis madressah?

Somewhere in the burning wilderness of Alum Rock!

"irfghan" wrote:

I guess this is the place Abdus and you get your metaphors from.

Yes alhamdulillah. One of our lessons is in rhetoric and alhamdulillah me and AbdusSalam - AbdusSalam more- excel in those classes. If you heard AbdusSalam in urdu you would start crying, his speeches are mashaALLAH extremely popular with the students. Unfortunately urdu isnt my strong point but arabic is coming along good alhamdulillah.

We have been taught to be formal and ordered in speech, but I kinda lack in both aspects, make dua for me that ALLAH makes my speech clear and ordered and understandable.

"Medievalist" wrote:

If you heard AbdusSalam in urdu you would start crying

Is he that bad?

Quote:

make dua for me that ALLAH makes my speech clear and ordered and understandable.

I pray you may gain some understanding too!

"Medievalist" wrote:

"irfghan" wrote:

I guess this is the place Abdus and you get your metaphors from.

Yes alhamdulillah. One of our lessons is in rhetoric and alhamdulillah me and AbdusSalam - AbdusSalam more- excel in those classes. If you heard AbdusSalam in urdu you would start crying, his speeches are mashaALLAH extremely popular with the students. Unfortunately urdu isnt my strong point but arabic is coming along good alhamdulillah.

We have been taught to be formal and ordered in speech, but I kinda lack in both aspects, make dua for me that ALLAH makes my speech clear and ordered and understandable.

It would be better if you explain things rationally and clearly rather than dress them up in emotive imaginative language.