"khan" wrote:

So has the Hanafi ruling been changed in regards to women and mosques?

Editor bro, I think you missed Medievals part of the post where the rulings stated it was only permissable for OLD women to attend the Mosque.

I mean editor bro, you know a lot of sisters,.. on whose rulings do they justify the attendance of the mosque as you describe,..? i.e. their usage of the Mosque is the same as mens..

and in what sense are the Hanafi rulings not applicable today as you are suggesting?

P.S. Can anybody recommend any books that will have these rulings as reference material. I'd like one with both the English and Arabic, if any available?

the sisters use the evidence from the many ahadith i have quoted....
also the few imaams who discourage it for women reading salaah at mosque, only do so regarding the safety of women, incase there is fitna, intermixing......and if these things can be taken care of then nothing should stop them.
The Hanafi imaams state discouragement of women going because of the above reason i quoted. Today women are safe to go mosque, different entrances, different halls, more women facilities, more events for women...and now there is more of a need than ever.

the notion that if women do not attend the Mosque they will
- attend something that will make them commit sin.
- not be educated
- not give dawah

is in my opinion wrong. muslim sisters may find themselves falling into the above three. but the blame does not ONLY fall on the mosques. yes mosques are failing, but the responsibility for providing facilities to make our sisters and wives more pious lies on the parents, guardians, husbands, the muslim family. if a sister attends a nightclub, does drugs, partakes in pre-marital relationships,.. you can't blame the mosque on this level.

you suggest that mosque's may help sort out these problems with our sisters - yes, they probably can help in certain areas.

nevertheless, my questions still stand. editor bro dismissed the hanafi rulings by stating Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik 'disliked' and were 'afraid'.

You can't dsimiss a ruling just like that, you don't have the authority to do so.

Okay the hadiths Editor bro posted, suggest:
- Times are restricted for women to attend (medieval has found that its limited to OLD women)
- There are also conditions to be met i.e. leaving prayers before the men, seeking the permissions of the Husbands before going, prevent men and women crowding in the street.. etc

are these conditions being followed? its not in one of the big mosques in my area. should I encourage/permit my sister/wife to attend?

Medieval has also commented on the times at which the hadiths and Hanifi rulings were given out, and were very different to the times at which the hadiths you have quoted..

I think he has a valid point in the sense times are far worse now. Its like coming out of the mosque after worshipping Allah, and coming across sisters in Jeans and Headscarf. Times are far worse than before.

I really enjoying this thread. It look like Ed has his fanclub in Muslim Sister and Lilsis and some of the other sis, and no matter what he said they backing him. Then we have Medievial and Khan on the other side as well who sticking together as well. [b]Too be honest both of you lot have provided enough adequate evidence to back up your opinions, I think there room for a difference of opinion here[/b].

Don't see why TJ are getting attack here, I think ED is stereotyping here again, I personally think they brillant and alot of us could learn alot from them. But saying that on the topic of Women and The Mosque, I personally think it should be allowed, why? because currently we having muslims sisters going to cinema to watch the latest bollywood films, Resturant, even Nightclubs. Too be honest there isn't much thing the women of today can't do. Allhumduillah, if a sister want to spend some time in the mosque in circle or the library, it something that should be praised. Even though I believe more can be learn at home, a change of environment can never hurt. Even though I been told that there more reward for women reading namaaz at home.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

I really enjoying this thread. It look like Ed has his fanclub in Muslim Sister and Lilsis and some of the other sis, and no matter what he said they backing him. Then we have Medievial and Khan on the other side as well who sticking together as well. [b]Too be honest both of you lot have provided enough adequate evidence to back up your opinions, I think there room for a difference of opinion here[/b].

.

I'm a fan of anyone who speaks out against sexist men

but its tru that women need to be eduacted in the mosques by Imams cos its not as if our dads/brothers are in a position to educate women

free mixing is a lame argument

we free mix in school, buses, in town, when we go shopping, when we work-thats how our society is

and then u get people who worry about whether or not there's a seperate enterance in the Mosque

instead of prasing women who want to spent their time in the Mosques instead of night clubs-some people look for evidence that forbids them :roll:

if people's homes were like "mosques" there'd be no argument here

Kind of agree, but I wouldn't critise the people who follow something which they have some islamic evidence for. There are some people I know who actually sit all the women down in the family a couple a time a week and give lecture and all of them are really educated and know alot about islam. But I wouldn't say one system work of all in this situation. It depend on all the people involve.

[b]so i take it that those MEN who discourage when from attending mosque, and dont really want them to go ....also discourage them from going to go town, do shopping, going to their friends, going work, college, uni, going out of teh house..........................
well do they?[/b]
if not , then why not? doesnt same rule apply...whats more important than going to the house of Allah?
most of the time, its you cant go mosque but can go shopping, wedding and god knows where....i kno wmany ppl who do that.

really, they shud allow them to go to the mosque and every where else as long as they dress and behave according to shariah. C'mon...i mean men hardly dress and behave according to shariah....so should they be locked at home aswell?

sometimes i feel sorry for our sisters, the way men treat them. i am more than happy for my wife to go to teh mosque, college, work, conference, do dawah, she wears hijab and behaves islamically...so why should i stop her?

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MashaALLAH! editor brother your quoting of Pure words fo Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam are greatly appreciated but let me explain something from my viewpoint.

With me, I dont claim to have oceans of knowledge; what i do claim is that there are A LOT OF AHADEETH , of different standards. There are even most authentic ahadeeth as you have quoted above. But the issue is that I am muqalli, and I think you are missing my point brother.

I fully accept that there are ahadeeth allowing women to attend. But you see as a muqallid I DONT delve into ahadeeth in the way that you are doing. This is because we rely on the Fuqaha and Aimmah e Mujtahideen to explain to us exactly what the meaning of the ahdeeth are. See, I dont claim to know the full context of the ahadeeth, nor can I can even dare to suggest explanations becuase I do not have the knowledge of all the various elementary branches of knowledge that are required BEFORE explaining with full confidence what a hadeeth means and how it is to be applied.

In this light I have provided the ruling of the Elders of Ahnaf; because I am FULLY CONFIDENT that they also were aware of the narrations you have so kindly provided and I am also confident that the Elders understoof the issue in its FULL CONTEXT, hence they issued the rulings which I have stated in previous posts.

Now, I see you have in your view provided your proofs and you I think concede that I have provided my proofs so it seems to me that the discussion has been completed, both sides having presented their arguements. But I still require proof that the ruling of Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad Sahibaan is no longer the ruling of Ulama e Ahnaf. Yes you have furnished ahadeeth, but as a Hanafi Muqallid I do not presume to engage in debates regarding Ahadeeth but rather refer myself to the understanding of the Mujtahid Imams and the Fuqaha.

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

if not , then why not? doesnt same rule apply...whats more important than going to the house of Allah?
most of the time, its you cant go mosque but can go shopping, wedding and god knows where....i kno wmany ppl who do that.

Very good point brother, couldnt agree with you more. What is more important than going to the house of ALLAH? the answer is not much, so if a person says dont go mosque but strut the markets and hang around at sales then doesnt make sense.

By far the markets are worse than the masajid; so if women should not go to the masjid but should remain glued to their homes then the command is even more strict on them strutting around the markets without necessity.

Good point.

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Fellow muslim Yashmaki,
Thanks for confirming Tablighis are following what Islam says in this instance. Thanks for confirming their dress code adheres to the requirements expected from a Muslim.

Yeh you're reading too much into the sisters who wear the face veil. A woman who gets to the level of wearing a face veil, has reached one of the most respected places in Islam.

Editor bro,
Your first sentance makes no sense. But from my limited understanding. All I can say is every man is different. Therefore, different men discourage different things.

I'll tell you whats more important than us going to the mosque. Its going to the mosque following critical Islamic guidelines.

Why are you using the faults of men to justify something that could 'possibly' lead to sisters breaking fundamental Islamic rulings?

I won't stop my wife or sister from doing anything she wants to. I would encourage her to follow Islamic guidelines, and discourage her from breaking them. Just because I'm a sinner, it doesn't mean my responsibility as a husband or brother is any less.

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[b]THE FOLLOWING IS TAKEN FROM THE HANAFI FIQH BOOK 'MUKHTASAR AL QADOORI'[/b]

[u][b]Women and the Mosque[/b][/u]

Allah The Exalted mentions mosques in Surat al-Noor (Light), beginning at verse 36; (translation follows):
"In houses which Allah has permitted to be raised up and that His name may be remembered in them. There glorify Him therein, in the mornings and the evenings, men whom neither trade nor selling diverts from the remembrance of Allah and the establishment of salah and the giving of zakah; they fear a day in which the hearts and eyes shall turn about; (It is) in order that Allah may reward them for the best of what they have done, and give them more out of His bounty. Allah provides for whomever He wills without measure."

Regarding women attending congregational prayers in the mosque, it has been reported from the Prophet (peace be upon him) that if women ask for permission to go to the mosque, they should be given permission. He is also reported to have said , meaning 'Do not prevent the female servants of Allah (i.e. women) from (going to) the mosques of Allah'. However, the Prophet himself laid down certain conditions which are clear from authentic traditions; among these is that a woman attending prayers in the mosque should not use perfume.

The reason for this is clear - people go to mosques to pray, and in prayer concentration and humility are sought after; distractions such as a perfumed woman are certainly not conducive to a good prayer. If women go to mosques with decorated clothes and perfumes, this is against the spirit of prayer in the mosque. It is probably in this regard that Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said during the time of the Companions of the Prophet, that had the Messenger of Allah known what women have introduced after his death, he would have prevented them from going to mosques just as the women of the Israelites were forbidden to do so. [Reported in SaHeeH Muslim].

[b]Jurists have specified that if a woman wants to attend prayers in the mosque, the following conditions should be satisfied: [/b]

- She should not be perfumed (as has already been mentioned)

- She should not have make-up or any other form of beautification, such as decorated or fancy clothes, such as would be distracting to men. Also, their clothes should not be such as to attract the attention even of other women, because they are coming to to the mosque to pray, not for a fashion show. Of course, it goes without saying that women should wear hijaab when they come to the mosque. People may argue that we see improperly dressed women all the time outside the mosque, so there is no harm if women come into the mosques without a head covering for example. But, we should remember that a mosque is a place of prayer, and aside from the distraction such a woman would cause, we know anyway that a Muslim woman should wear hijaab even outside the mosque. Besides, the fact that we see semi-naked women outside the mosque does not change the fact that such behavior is still wrong, and we should hate it with our hearts at least (this being the weakest form of faith), and certainly we should enforce the correct codes of dress and behavior in places which we do have control over.

- She should not mix with the men. The Prophet has told us that the best rows (in prayer) for men are the first (front) ones, and the worst for them are the last ones, while for women it is the opposite. [Reported by Muslim] (This applies to the case where men and women are praying together - if no men are present, and only women are praying in a room, then the best rows for women are the foremost (front) ones). The reason for this is that a woman in the backmost rows is furthest from the men, and so is least likely to be distracted by their movements, voices, etc. This is corroborated by the Hadith (reported by Muslim): Oh assembly of women! Do not raise your heads (from ruku/sujud) until after the men have done so.

In fact, according to Hanafi jurists, if a row of women is in front of a row of men, the prayer of the men behind the women is void (broken), since the men are disregarding the hadith . Similarly, If a woman is praying together with a man , standing next to him without any barrier between them, the prayer of the man is broken. Some scholars are of the view that if a woman passes in front of a man while he is praying, his prayer will be broken. Other jurists have also disapproved of women praying in front of men, although they did not think the men's prayers would become void. So, if the mosque also serves other purposes, such as providing various facilities for use by Muslim men and women, so that women may need to move around the mosque, they should bear these things in mind. Similarly, men should avoid praying in places where women cannot avoid passing in front of them.

- There should not be any danger for the women on the road to the mosque, nor should there be any danger of the women causing distraction or mischief on the road.

- If a woman is praying while men are present, she should not recite aloud. This is based on the Qur'anic advice to women in Surat al-aHzaab, verses 33-34, (the translation of which is): "then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word. And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore;"

From this it is obvious that women coming to the mosque should not remain behind and talk unnecessarily. The sunnah is that they leave immediately after the prayer while the men remained engaged in , so that intermingling is minimized - this was the practice of the early generations of Muslims. Of course, this does not give men a license to remain behind to engage in useless talk. In order to further reduce mixing of the sexes, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) introduced a separate door to the mosque for women, and Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) used to prevent men from entering by his door.

-One other point regarding women in the mosque is regarding the Hadeeth (clapping is for women, tasbeeH [i.e.saying subHaanAllaah] is for men) [Reported by Muslim]. If, during the prayer, the Imam makes a mistake, men should say to alert him, but women should clap with their hands. This clapping is not the clapping together of the two palms as is done when playing or applauding; it refers rather to a woman tapping on the outer part of her left hand using the palm of her right hand - if she instead clapped by striking her two palms together withthe intention of imitating the behavior of somebody playing or applauding, her prayer is broken.

Let us move to the issue of the jum`a prayer. The jum`a prayer is not compulsory for women, although if they wish they may perform it instead of Zuhr prayer.

[b]1. Hanafi opinion[/b]
It is better (afDal) for the woman to pray Zuhr at home rather than got the mosq mosque and perform jum`a, since jum`a is not compulsory for her. [b]Imam Abu Haneefah himself used to allow women to come to the mosque, [/b]but later, after his death, Imam Muhammad his student did not see any harm in forbidding women from coming since they did not observe the proper etiquette.

[b]2. Maliki opinion[/b]
It is permissible (jaa'iz) for an elderly woman (whom men would not be unduly attracted by) to go the mosque to offer jum`a. It is undesirable (makrooh) for a young woman to go, however, and if it is feared that she would be a cause of fitnah then it is forbidden (Haraam) for her to go.
[b]
3. Shafi`i opinion[/b]
It is makrooh for a good-looking woman to go to the mosque, either for jum`ah or for any other prayer, even if she wears plain (undecorated) clothes. It is permissible (not makrooh) for an elderly woman to go, but she must wear plain (non-fancy) clothes. In all cases two conditions must be satisfied first:

The woman should get permission from her father, or husband, or other male guardian,

There should not be any danger of fitnah, either on the way to the mosque or in the mosque itself.
If these 2 conditions cannot be fulfilled, it is Haraam (forbidden) for the woman to go to the mosque.

[b]4. Hanbali opinion[/b]
It is neutrally permissible (mubaaH) for an elderly woman to go to the mosque, but disliked (makrooh) for a young, good-looking woman.

Evidences for these opinions in Hadeeth include:
"Do not forbid your women from the mosques, although their houses are better for them (to pray in)."
[related by Imam Ahmad. Also by Abu Dawood, and its chain of narration (isnaad) is sound (SaHeeH), as has been reported in Mishkaat-ul-maSaabeeH.]
"The best mosque for women is the depths of their houses."
[related by Imam Ahmad]

Also, the statement of Aishah has been taken to account, bearing in mind that she was , and that the condition of women today is generally as bad if not worse than at that time. From her statement, it is concluded that protection from fitnah is more important than women praying in the mosque. If both can be accomplished, that is fine, otherwise the former has a higher priority.

[Note: regarding fitnah, an Arabic word which is used above,since some people may not be familiar with it. The noun is derived from the root {f-t-n} which has the following meanings: In a general sense it means to try, probe, or test. From this follow further meanings such as 'to tempt', 'to visit or tempt by calamity', 'to incite to rebellion', 'to stir up revolt or discord'. Other meanings, which are appropriate to our case are: To charm by beauty, captivate, madden, fill with admiration, allure, enamor, arouse. So can mean infatuation, fascination, captivation, enchantment, seduction, trial, affliction, temptation.]

I have quoted the opinions of the 4 schools of thought regarding women and the mosque, in order to give some idea of the general rulings of the majority of muslim scholars. From the 4 opinions I posted, what can be seen is that most scholars preferred that women not go to the mosque. [b]However, it is wrong to place an absolute ban on all women going to the mosque; such a ban would be against the advice of the Prophet. Regarding the statement of `Aishah that the prophet would have forbidden women from going to the mosque if he had known what they had introduced- this does not contradict the Prophet: the Prophet himself said that women should not come to the mosque with perfume. So, `Aishah meant that if the Prophet knew that women were coming to the mosque with perfumes and fancy clothes, he would have prevented them. And Allah knows best. [/b]

Al-Waanilee [in his book: al-masjid fil-Islam] mentions that the women used used to come to the mosque and pray the Jum`ah prayer during the time of the Prophet. He then goes on to say that women should realize that although Allah has permitted them to go to the mosque to listen to good talks of admonition and to learn about religious matters, Allah has also made it necessary for her that if she chooses to go, she should not use perfume. al-Waanili then mentions that the women requested the Prophet to give special lessons for them, and he did so.

Of course, it is true that many Muslim women nowadays do not observe correct dress and/or behavioral codes, and it is not correct to allow them to come to the mosque in this state. Regarding the Prophet giving lessons to the women, Al-Waanilee quotes from Shaykh al-Qaasimee, who remarked that women today are surely in greater need of of admonition than those in the time of the Prophet, due to the prevalence among them of innovations, wrong practices, nonsensical and misled beliefs, disobedience to their husbands, and countless other evils; thus it is incumbent on the muslim leaders to establish lessons for the women in the mosque, with somebody at the door to ensure that men do not enter during this time.

This article has attempted to address some of the main issues regarding women and the mosque. I ask that Allah bring benefit by it, and grant us the sincerity to act only for His sake. And may Allah bless the prophet Muhammad, his Noble Household and Companions, and send peace upon them. In conclusion, I praise Allah, Lord of the Worlds.

WASALAAM

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"yashmaki" wrote:

Female reverts often turn to mosques. I've heard these sisters telling me they need to learn salat, need advice, want to meet other sisters. Want to learn arabic. Have dilemmas and the mosque doesn't admit women? Now if you're not from a large town like london just where are you supposed to go for this sort of help? I know in my town female reverts have no where to go for help. If they're lucky they may find a muslim sister or alimah who is willing to teach them from their own home. Now i'm not a revert but when i started practising my faith seriously i had no where to turn either so i know what these sisters are feeling to some extent.

[b]EXACTLY!!!! THATS WHAT IVE BEEN ARGUING ALLALONG. THERE IS A MASSIVE NEED FOR WOMEN TO ATTEND MASJIDS FOR MANY REASONS. AT THIS STAGE OF THIS DISCUSSION WE SHOULD REALISE IF ONE FULFILLS THE CONDITIONS, IE NO PERFUME, SEPERATE ENTRANCES ETC ETC...THEN NOTHING SHOULD STOP WOMEN GOING TO THE MOSQUES.[/b]

You see, a woman can follow the requirements and guidelines exactly as it is expected from her.

But if the mosque itself cannot provide the facilities for women to attend, The mosque needs to do more to provide these facilities, since there is an increase in demand for reverts to find out more, and an increase in numbers of women who want to pray at the mosque rather than their houses.

Nevertheless, I guess it depends in your localities and what facilities are being provided. Unfortunatly, I do not know of one mosque within 3 miles radius of where I live that adheres to the 'conditions' that have been highlighted in this thread.

In this instance I agree, the responsibilty is on us Men to encourage the Mosques to cater for these facilities. And yes there are mosques out there that do fulfil these conditions, which the Ulema have authorised. Unfortunatly, due to 'western' ideologies of how a religious institution should be run being implemented in the majority of mosques here in the UK, I envisage it being a long time before it becomes a common legitimate practice.

But in the current state of the mosques in my locality, should I encourage or discourage the female members of my family to attend, despite it being near impossible for them to attend as suggested by Islam?

"khan" wrote:

But in the current state of the mosques in my locality, should I encourage or discourage the female members of my family to attend, despite it being near impossible for them to attend as suggested by Islam?

whats the problem at your mosques?

they have a ladies hall yeah?
when there is a bayaan, ladies class, activity then let them attend....dressed properly and behaving properlyas islam requires....

and even better get the sisters to get involved in the mosque to improve teh facilities and status of teh mosque for the sisters.

i mean sisters go out, town, shopping, work, uni, college, friends, etc etc.... and of course the state and environment is not exactly islamic but we allow it, but when it comes to mosque then we remember the isalmic requirements.

the problems at the mosques around here are what have been mentioned on this thread..

there only one mosque in our area with separate prayer hall, wont mention da name, but it the biggest and most funded one around here. but overcrowding still happens on the road. I'll be honest here, it aint the biggest of issues on ur typical days, but when there are events or prayers such as eid or Jumma then it happens.

should i encourage or discourage her to walk 2 miles to pray at this mosque?

the rest do not have a seperate prayer hall to men or wudu facilities. Should I encourage her or discourage her from attending this mosque to pray at the back behind the men?

about shopping, and other things you have mentioned.. we gotta address each one individually. I'm sure there are strict guidelines when it comes to shopping, eating, everything.

Its just as important for men to maintain Hijab and follow guidelines. Like I said before, Muslims do not have a clue on whats required. I don't have a clue and must gain knowledge.

Islam is supposed to be a way of life, where our every action should imply the worship of Allah, wether its at the mosque, wether its sleeping, wether its going out to the market. We've been told what the right way of doing things are.

MashaALLAH good post Khan Brother.

Look the issue is that even if mosques do cater fully for women there are still issues about how people behave outside mosque or in mosque carpark etc.

There are a number of large mosques in bham, if i focus on one major one. They have womens wudhu facility, seperate prayer hall and seperate entrance. Before when a certain scholar was khateeb of the mosque there was a great deal of segregation being implemented, women remained in thier section, and the atmosphere outside in mosque carpark was such that people felt ashamed to stand around and chat with brothers and 'sisters'.

Now the khateeb has been changed. Women regularly walk around by the mens wudhu area because the downstairs community hall is opposite wudhu facilities so women when they have classes are walking around there where the men do the wudhu. Now in carpark and just outside in mosque courtyard 'brothers' and 'sisters' loiter around doing so called dawah and such like. So now even segregation is not being properly maintained inside the mosque and even less so in the near vicinity. Can you imagine the situtation if muslims stand around gazing and chatting with unrealted ppl of opposite gender in mosque carpark.

salaam
from what medieval is saying all that needs to happen is that the mosque organisers/committe has to ensure there is no intermixing...end of, enforce that.

and khan, no need for sister to go two or three miles to pray...if none is closer...

my point always has been if they can go easily, then go...if situation in mosque is not correct then brothers need to speak to committe to correct the behaviour, get supervision etc....

mosque for sisters now should be more for talks, classes, talks, sister only events, meet new good sisters, talk to learned sisters, get active in th emosque, dawah work, sister projects, teach sisters in the mosque....

thing is mosque committees are ppl who just want control and prestige plus they dont understand that intermixing is not on. They say we be extreme so thats why ppl who oberve hijab stop going to that mosque. Now the control is in modern muslims hands

Salaam

A person can never totally get rid of “free-mixing”. This is a problem that does not exist due to the fault of Mosques.

Even when strictly segregated weddings or Islamic programs take place, certain individuals always find some way or another to intermix.

No Mosque advocates “free- mixing”, everyone Mosque knows that this is wrong.

Even so, just because “some people” behave in a shameless manner, this does not mean that access should be denied for all women.

Wasalaam

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Too be honest the decent mosque are very hard to find. I didn't find the mosque any type of help at all. But if you look at the East London mosque, I been there quite a few time and I haven't seen a woman there yet, and they have a whole section for women, so if done right the free mixing issues is really a non issue. But saying that I can understand that people want to be extra careful not to allow corruption in th mosque, but thank to the commitee made out of men that is already the case in most mosque.

i'm so glad that women have the choice whether to attend or not to attend i would not like it to be mandatory for women to attend as i prefer to pray at home

our mosque is open to women and attendance is especially good during Ramadan. situation is getting so that every year more and more pressure is being put on me to attend as if it is a mandatory thing

i know this is the other side to the coin but i had to say

"almas" wrote:

i'm so glad that women have the choice whether to attend or not to attend i would not like it to be mandatory for women to attend as i prefer to pray at home

our mosque is open to women and attendance is especially good during Ramadan. situation is getting so that every year more and more pressure is being put on me to attend as if it is a mandatory thing

i know this is the other side to the coin but i had to say

that is the right that islam gives to muslim women. makes islam easy for them, takes off heavy burden and responsibilities. they have a choice. where as men HAVE to go to mosque for salaah, jummah prayer, tarawih, eid etc....

unfortunately some of us have turned this RIGHT of the women into a restriction and prohibition.

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

unfortunately some of us have turned this RIGHT of the women into a restriction and prohibition.

by some of us are you referring to me?

editor bro im still waiting for evidence that the hanafi ruling has been changed? and what is this inalienable right? If this right did exist then why did Imam Abu Haneefah only permit the old women to come for Fajr, Maghrib and Isha/ was he taking away the womens inalienable right?

U cant make statements like that without back up. Plz provide evidence pertaining to our Ahnaaf Ulama.