salaam
Eye opening report below
pls have your say
[b]Ban foreign language imams - peer[/b]
Foreign imams who do not learn English should be banned from giving sermons in UK mosques, a Labour peer has said.
Lord Ahmed's comments come as a survey suggests imams lack professional and language skills to tackle the threat of radicalism among young British Muslims.
Only 8% of imams preaching in British mosques were born in the UK, it found.
Research at 300 mosques by Chester University for BBC News and the BBC Asian Network also indicated only 6% speak English as a first language.
The report acknowledges the use of English is becoming more prevalent at Friday sermons but says more investigation is required to assess the frequency and quality.
It concluded mosques often remained in the control of first generation migrants.
Number of years spent in UK by imams
BBC religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott says the survey does not contain evidence that imams are radicalising young British Muslims.
But he says imams face competition from groups who wait outside mosques to hand out leaflets and are prepared to talk to young people in English about issues such as discrimination and UK foreign policy in the Middle East.
Report author Professor Ron Geaves said its aim was to look at the ability of imams to adapt to modern Britain.
Lord Ahmed, who became the UK's first Muslim peer in 1998, said a new national advisory and training body was needed to train imams already in the country and impose bans on those who cannot speak English or understand the culture.
"They need to pass exams, they need to do more," he told BBC News 24.
"In fact, I would go as far as to say that if they don't learn English within a certain period then they shouldn't be allowed to deliver sermons."
If they can play their role properly and communicate with young people they can get the message across to wider society in a very good way
Muhammad Abdul Bari,
Muslim Council of Britain
Are imams modern enough?
Muslim leaders are meeting this weekend to discuss ways of tackling radicalism in their community.
Dr Usama Hasan, an academic and an imam in London, said some mosques did not "serve the needs" of Muslims who were born and brought up in the UK.
The general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, Muhammad Abdul Bari, said imams should be able to "talk and engage" people of all age groups.
"If they can play their role properly and communicate with young people they can get the message across to wider society in a very good way," he said.
'Deeply conservative'
Each mosque was asked a set of questions about imams including their place of birth, first language, qualifications and language of the Friday sermon.
The survey found 24 imams were born and educated in the UK, but this did not reflect the percentage of British-born South Asian Muslims who represent more than half of the Muslim population.
The study reveals a deeply conservative body of individuals maintaining traditional languages, types of qualification and still largely recruited from the place of origin
Professor Ron Geaves
University of Chester
The survey found almost 45% of imams have been in the UK for less than five years.
The interviews conducted in February and March, also indicated that 50% of imams are from Pakistan, 20% from Bangladesh and 15% from India.
Some 66% of imams speak Urdu as a first language with 52% giving sermons in the language, it adds.
It also suggests that 6% of imams arrived in the UK in the past 12 months with 23% being in the UK for more than 10 years.
Professor Geaves said: "The study reveals a deeply conservative body of individuals maintaining traditional languages, types of qualification and still largely recruited from the place of origin."
The imams were "overwhelmingly" qualified in the traditional Islamic curriculum, which he said had changed little since medieval times.
He added: "Although there are social religious and political reasons that drive a need to transform the imamate to a 21st century British context there is as yet little sign of the mosque imams or their employers being ready to professionalise."
So... a few questions:
1. Where do you find this mythical beast known as the English Speaking Imam?
2. Why would he work for what amounts to a small pile of peanuts?
3. Why would someone go study Islam for years knowing there is no financial security for his future family?
I am not suggesting that an imam will be greedy, but he will have a family to support. and his lifestyle. If he leads all 5 prayers, this means he has to eb available more or less 24/7.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Let the imams do their jobs. If they don't speak english, so what? :roll:
"Purity is half of faith.......Prayer is the light...patience is illumination; and the Quran is an argument for or against you. Everyone starts his day and is a vendor of his soul, either freeing it or bringing about its ruin." Muslim
Then they cannot do their jobs with a large amount of Muslim Britons who's Urdu etc is not up to scratch.
I have no problems with foreign Imam's. But they should have to go through a few courses to get them upto scratch.
I would say language, teaching and social care courses should be given to them as part of their job.
That is where the government can do it's bit. by making this affordable for the Muslim community to provide it's Imam's.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Thats the point they do need to speak english otherwise how are they going to communicate with young muslims.
No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy
Ok, I lost the argument.
But I don't think that we should make a huge fuss. It is us the youth who should try to do Dawah and promote Islam.
Leave the imams to their jobs, as long as their recitation, knowledge of Quran and Hadith is up to scratch its ok.
I'm saying don't make such a huge fuss as I met a MPAC man and Wow he was some angry fanatic!! he said most imams are old-fashioned and are like monkeys and hamsters going round a treadmill :shock:
"Purity is half of faith.......Prayer is the light...patience is illumination; and the Quran is an argument for or against you. Everyone starts his day and is a vendor of his soul, either freeing it or bringing about its ruin." Muslim
see that is the problem if we leave it too the youth (who are too darn lazy) nothing will ever get done.
No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy
If fully-qualified British Imams are hard to come by, I think there should be English-FLUENT (not boken-English at all) speakers who can help the Imam translate talks and/or write signs in the mosque etc.
When someone goes into a mosque and there is a A4 piece of paper with [b]'PLESE TAKING SHOOS FOR WUDHU OFF PLESE' [/b]written across the door, it is really unproffesional and looks terrible for any non-Muslims who happen to visit. They think Muslims are backward and uneducated.
In Granada they had an excellent balance. a friendly brother greets all visitors, he spoke Arabic, French, Spanish and English. The khutbah was given by the imam in Arabic, and after the prayer someone ELSE gave the entire khutbah in Spanish so other people could understand it clearly.
In certain mosques here, either there is no english translation of the khutbah, or a VERY short english summary (in broken english with a strong accent that makes it difficult to understand- and also boring and unengaging).
So I don't think we should ban foreign-language imams, rather give them support with English-speaking assistants
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Good idea
"Purity is half of faith.......Prayer is the light...patience is illumination; and the Quran is an argument for or against you. Everyone starts his day and is a vendor of his soul, either freeing it or bringing about its ruin." Muslim
The problem with translating Khutbah into english or any other language is that it can loose its effect. Some things sound better in Arabic or urdu and not so much in english. But may require further explaining.
They should promote some sort of English college/university type thing for people who want to become Imams to study here at. It can then also be regulated by the government making it easier to see if things are up to scratch.
But ofcourse as Admin said, its not really something thats financially secure. But then again some people dont do it for the money. But realisticlly speaking there should be some sort of financial support for these guys. Maybe provide like, tax benefits or something.
Back in BLACK
So.. in essence what you are sayign is that the khutbah has no substance?
Hyperbole may not translate well, but facts etc will.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Toma-toe... Tom-atoe
Back in BLACK
it only loses its effect if said in a stunted, un-emotional way (for example someone reading it from a sheet of paper who doesn't speak fluent English let-alone read very well). That was the point I was making of giving it to someone else to translate and then they give the khutbah after the salat (with passion, fluency and clarity).
And Arabic and Urdu only has an 'effect' on people who speak Arabic or Urdu.
This is Britain: Muslims come from all over the world speaking all types of languages, MANY diverse dialects of Arabic, Urdu, Bengali, Somali, French, Indonesian, Hindi, Tamil, Hausa (Nigerian+Ghanain), Malay, Turkish, Bosnian, Kazakh etc etc etc. let alone people born here who's knowledge of their culture's language may be very small or non-existent. The one language that people *should* have in common in Britain is English.
With an English Khutbah (or translation provided after it) Muslims could come together from ANY ethnic background and learn the same lessons every Friday, helping intra-Muslim relations & unity.
Instead of loads of tiny mosques dotted around, each with one ethnic group not mixing with each other.
Insha'Allah this situation will improve as Ethnic groups settle more into society and/or start communicating WITH one another.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I used to go to a mosque where the imam gave the Khutbah in Bengali and Arabic, the problem was that even I was finding it hard to understand some of the words that was being said in Bengali despite that the fact that I'm Bangladeshi.
I now go to a mosque where the Khutbah is said in English and Arabic, and I find that people listen carefully to the Khutbah when it is being said in English than in Arabic coz people understand what is being said. Sometimes I see people dozing off when the Khutbah is being said in Arabic.
And I agree with Ya'qub, don't ban foreign imams but give them support. Maybe even the Muslim youth can teach foreign imams how to speak/read/write English properly.
Firstly what’s the point in having two imams, surely its best just to have one and save money.
No i still think its better to have a proper English speaking imam. The accents on some imams do make it a bit difficult to understand what they are saying.
While translating Arabic to English can lose its meaning sometimes and not sound the same i think most ppl would get the gist of what is being said.
Because the Gov is so keen on English Imam and i think he should introduce some sort of funding system and help to encourage and recruit English Imams. That would sort the finical side of things.
The problem with foreign Imams is that their interpretation of the Qu'ran is some what warped. Sometimes their own personal views show in their sermons.
No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy
Most (not small) mosques do have more than one as they do not expect one Imam to eb available 24/7.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Ya’qub comments are very perceptive. I agree with him completely.
I think it is vitally important to have an overwhelming number of Imans who are fluent in the English language.
Imams who can only speak their own “community” language are, regrettably, part of the problem that disunites Britain’s Muslims.
That is not to say that these men are not honourable, devout, hardworking and admirable, but they create a sense of disunity and nationalism that can only be to the detriment of the overall Muslim communitie[size=18][b]s [/b][/size]in the UK, and the nation as a whole.
Unfortunately there are those, (among some of Britain’s Muslim communities it seems disturbingly close to a majority) who think that knowledge of a certain language, for example Urdu, somehow puts them on a higher spiritual plain than the rest of us. This attitude needs to be changed.
Imams who are articulate in the English language can communicate with the all of the vast diversity of the Muslim communities, (as well as conveying their message to the non- Muslims) thus creating a sense of unity and love that can only be a good thing.
Most Mosques (in my part of London anyway) are Turkish only, Somali only, Urdoo only, Bengali only, Arabic only. This is a situation that needs to be transformed. Quickly. Tribalism/nationalism is always wrong.
Greetings Latifah!
How goes it?
Dave!
My old friend [i](Mi Droog)[/i] I am very well thank you!
how are you!?
Hope the family are well!
God Bless
Ah splendid! I hope school wrapped up nicely for you! The family is well, and expanding! Looks like Annette is going to be a big sister for the first time in her life at the same time she is going to be a new mother for the second time in her life.
Tis good to be back! Hopefully I don't have to go back to Iraq for a while.
Uni finished very well thanks!
I now have a nice job in local government. (Evaluating disability access in shopping centres, that type of thing)
I'm delighted that you and Annette are happy and contented.
Iraq? :?
Must have been dificult. Glad you are back safe and sound. May God protect you.
Wow that sounds splendid! It is difficult to get a job straight out of school, that's partially why I jumped into law school.
Everything was boring but safe in Iraq... the worst thing I came across were giant oogly ungodly spiders... and some rather pushy restaurant owners.
lol. that's annoying! did they chase u around asking u to come and eat at their resturant?
Yes! Anybody in uniform was basically looked at as a freaking celebrity so walking down the street people were stuffing food in my face and everybody would gather round for the verdict (very good food incidentally).
They also thought my massive fear of their oogly spiders was funny, especially when I shot the one.
lol. when i was in pak, the restaurant owners would run after our car, begging us to come n eat at their restaurant. they easily recognise foreigners.
lol hey when life hands you wind, sail with it! I came back 10 pounds heavier!
not in pakiland u dont!
Then don't go to pakiland! Only go to countries with tasty food.
Problem solved.
lol so very true
i think with any asian country they are like that. When i was in egypt they literally hounded us sometimes i gave them a peace of my mind and other times it was just too hot and i couldnt be bothered to argue so i just gave in.
No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy
too skint to go anywhere!
pakiland did have decent food, but i cudnt hack it. plus, i dint trust it. too dirty and unhygienic for my liking.
I'm pretty sure Pakistanis are Britains Mexicans.
Pages