i get my haircut done by a muslim hairdresser but they also cater for non muslim women who have been present while i have had my haircut. I dont understand this whole business about not being able to show ur hair to non muslim women so i dont follow it.
I can understand why you should cover in the presence of men...coz they cant keep their eyes to themselves :twisted:
BUT women dont eye up other women like that unless they are lesbians then i can understand why.

"Naz" wrote:

i get my haircut done by a muslim hairdresser but they also cater for non muslim women who have been present while i have had my haircut. I dont understand this whole business about not being able to show ur hair to non muslim women so i dont follow it.

[color=indigo][b]what dont u understand sis? if you follow a madhab you must follow its teachings completely and not pick and choose just because you dont understand the concept behind why a certain thing is not allowed or because the matter is too difficult to follow.

ps: im assuming you do follow a madhab, if not i guess you decide for urself whether sumthing is permissible or not according to quran and sunnah :? [/b][/color]

"Noor" wrote:

[color=indigo][b]what dont u understand sis? if you follow a madhab you must follow its teachings completely and not pick and choose just because you dont understand the concept behind why a certain thing is not allowed or because the matter is too difficult to follow.

ps: im assuming you do follow a madhab, if not i guess you decide for urself whether sumthing is permissible or not according to quran and sunnah :? [/b][/color]

On the other hand is that the opinion of hanafi fiqh, or the opinion of a scholar who follows hanafi fiqh? There is a difference. (PS I do not know. I do not need to know. Just postign this to allow both sides to exit the debate with a semblance of dignity)

Secondly, the reason given is not always valid.

"Noor" wrote:

[color=indigo][b]what dont u understand sis? if you follow a madhab you must follow its teachings completely and not pick and choose just because you dont understand the concept behind why a certain thing is not allowed or because the matter is too difficult to follow.

ps: im assuming you do follow a madhab, if not i guess you decide for urself whether sumthing is permissible or not according to quran and sunnah :? [/b][/color][/quote]

This whole concept about covering in front of non muslim women i dont understand.
Its not about picking and choosing its about following something you understand and not because everybody else does it.

If a non believer was to ask me why i wear a headscarf then i can explain to them why. If they then turned around and said why do you have to cover in front of non muslim women then i cant give them an answer because i dont know why myself.

Islam states one must acquire knowledge and to me that means through the interpretation of the Qu'ran. Following a madhab is not you acquring knowledge yourself, you are just relying on somebody elses interpretation.

Ive not as of yet come across anything that states a muslim women should cover in front of a non muslim women. They might be something in the Qu'ran, there might not be, i dont know because im still in the process of acquiring knowlege about Islam.

"Admin" wrote:

Secondly, the reason given is not always valid.

[color=indigo][b]so what are we meant to do? follow our own instincts? or follow the opinion of scholars who are way more educated than us.[/b][/color]

What happens when two hanafi scholars give differing opinions ?

You should look at both, see if the differences and the similarities.

The above opinion is using the situation of getting a non-muslim to cut your hair as the sticking point. What if this is not the case in a particular situation?

I may sound egotistical saying that, but well that is what I would do. The natural instinct of a Muslim should be correct.

EDIT - I am not trying to say that the opinion of one scholar matters less than that of the other. Most people will actually go by what [i]their[/i] scholar says. Hopefully there are not many people as stubborn or evil as me.

[color=indigo][b]u do confuse me admin. what i meant was, if the reason given isnt valid enough and there is only one opinion given on the matter, then what are u meant to do?

if there are two opinions given then its common sense to follow the one u think is most correct.

on a side note, say out of the 4 fiqhs the shafi'i fiqh has stronger evidence on a matter compared to the hanafi fiqh, are we allowed to follow it or do we have to stick to the hanafi fiqh? that doesn't mean we do this for other matters, just on a one off i mean. have the 4 imams sed anything about this?[/b][/color]

Dunno.

The closest to the matter is that there are I think a couple of ahadith about the wive(s) of the prophet shortening their hair after the passing of the prophet. (long hair was a sign of beauty at the time).

However I am certain both sides of the discussion will have an answer to this.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

the girl gets a new benz every year and her dad threw her a $400,000 partay :shock:

and then they wonder why their kid is out of control and wont listen to a thing they say.

"Noor" wrote:

"yashmaki" wrote:

I thght you can if there's good reason?

Girls expose themselves to non muslim women for a new haircut, and for other beauty treatments for example?

I've removed it for a haircut. Plus after i gave birth midwife came to visit early mornings i was suffering from the so called baby blues, felt like terminal depression i couldn't have cared who saw me that's how bad i was feeling. I think tht may be an exception no?

[color=indigo][b]a muslim woman cannot cannot expose herself to non muslim woman just for a haircut or any other beauty treatments, thats a big no. her awra has to be remained cz non muslim women or non mahrams to us. u can only expose yourself when u have no choice and when u do, u shud try to preserve as much of the awra as you possibly can.[/b][/color]

sis you're right about the above being a mainstream Hanafi opinion, however we can also take into consideration Imam Razi's opinion which lilsis quoted, that women can remove their hijaab in front of non-muslim women. personally i wouldn't remove my hijaab in front of a non-muslim hairdresser because i know plenty of muslim hairdressers, but not everyone has that option. and i do remove my hijaab in front of non-muslim family and friends because they know and respect the islamic rules regarding hijaab and wouldn't ever describe the way i look to a non-mahram.

lilsis and naz - i dont think it's fair to disregard scholarly opinions just because we dont know the reasoning behind them. the main reason behind why these scholars are of the opinion that we can't remove our hijaab in front of non-muslim women is because we cannot guarantee that they know the rules surrounding hijaab and will not go away and describe to a non-mahram the way we look without our hijaab.

"*DUST*" wrote:

lilsis and naz - i dont think it's fair to disregard scholarly opinions just because we dont know the reasoning behind them. .

I dont have anything against scholar opionins. God has gifted me with a brain and set all muslims the task to go out there into the big bad world and seek knowledge for themselves. Therefore by me relying on scholar opinions is not my own translation of the holy Qu'ran but somebody elses. I dont believe something unless i have read it with my own two eyes (what can i say im not a very trusting person).

"*DUST*" wrote:

the main reason behind why these scholars are of the opinion that we can't remove our hijaab in front of non-muslim women is because we cannot guarantee that they know the rules surrounding hijaab and will not go away and describe to a non-mahram the way we look without our hijaab

highly unlikey.

"Naz" wrote:

I dont have anything against scholar opionins. God has gifted me with a brain and set all muslims the task to go out there into the big bad world and seek knowledge for themselves. Therefore by me relying on scholar opinions is not my own translation of the holy Qu'ran but somebody elses. I dont believe something unless i have read it with my own two eyes (what can i say im not a very trusting person).

just a general point, not based on the topic you were discussing, but theres a reason there are scholars there to guide us
1 - we cant make rulings, we arent mujtahids, and imagine if everyone could use their own interpretations to make rulings....would be chaos.
2 - we dont have the understanding or references to all the hadiths, important works of past scholars, the wisdom that comes with it, the numerous years of study etc etc etc
3 - obviously there are varying opinions amongst the ulema, some we totally dont agree with, some we do. You should take the opinion of a sound scholar you trust, and stick with that. no picking and mixing to suit you. Always stick to one that has a sound chain of transmission that leads to The Holy Prophet Muhammed (SAW)

Quote:

A man came to Abu Darda (ra) while he was in Damascus. Abu Darda asked him, “What has brought you here my brother?” He replied, “A hadith which you relate from the Prophet (salalahi alayhiwasalam).” Abu Darda asked, “Have you come for some worldly need?” He replied, “No.” “You have come only to seek this hadith?” He replied, “Yes.” Abu Darda then said, “I heard the Messenger of Allah say:“Whoever travels a path seeking sacred knowledge, Allaah will place him on a path leading to Paradise. The angels lower their wings for the student of sacred knowledge, pleased with what hen is doing. The creatures in the heavens and earth seek forgiveness for the student of sacred knowledge and even the fish in the water. The superiority of the scholar over the devout worshipper is like the superiority of the full moon over the heavenly bodies. The religious scholars are the heirs to the prophets. The prophets leave no money to bequest, rather they leave knowledge. Whoever seizes it, has taken a bountiful share” (Imam Ahmad, Abu Daawood and Ibn Maajah)

i know what noor is saying im aware of that opinion. but i only visited a non muslim woman coz it was hard enough for me to find a salon where they had a private room away from everyone else so i could get my haircut. on top of that to ask for a muslim hairdresser was impossible, they never had any. its difficult to find any in my town. ok it may sound like a pathetic excuse but if i could use a muslim hairdresser i would. if i was strong enough to let my hair just grow and not want it styled then i wouldn't go to get my hair done either, i guess i know im sinning.

i agree with sister Dust the main reason for the ruling is coz non muslim women may go and describe u to other ppl. also in this day an age lesbianism is another reason, but the odds of that is lower i suppose.

the first time i was in hospital i was a bit lax i think it was down to the whole experience, and i was highly depressed just didnt care about nothing. I thght the entire ward is for women only, any men arrive after 12 for visiting hrs or when the male docs are doing their bed rounds. So during those times i made sure i had hijab on other than that i didn't wear it on maternity ward.

when midwife visited after the birth i never wore it either.

This time insha'Allah i won't be so lax, ive had experience ill just get a pull on hijab wont have to fuss over pins that way.

i dont think i intended to pick and mix im weak i sin like everyone else, especially when u desire something like a freaking hair cut. not a good excuse but i admit i did wrong.