"Don Karnage" wrote:

How are we defining "worship"

Worships means to obey Allah's ordained laws. If Allah says do this, we do that; if Allah says don't do that, we refrain from it.

For example, if Imam Ali asks me to "eat fish", but Allah says "don't eat fish", and I go ahead and eat the fish, then obviously it would mean that I worship Imam Ali. If I worship Allah, I would ignore Imam Ali and refrain from eating fish. This is what true worhip actually is.

All Muslims will never obey anyone who is instructing us to go against the laws set forth by God.

"malik" wrote:

"Don Karnage" wrote:

How are we defining "worship"

Worships means to obey Allah's ordained laws. If Allah says do this, we do that; if Allah says don't do that, we refrain from it.

For example, if Imam Ali asks me to "eat fish", but Allah says "don't eat fish", and I go ahead and eat the fish, then obviously it would mean that I worship Imam Ali. If I worship Allah, I would ignore Imam Ali and refrain from eating fish. This is what true worhip actually is.

All Muslims will never obey anyone who is instructing us to go against the laws set forth by God.

I see. So if I said God told me to tell you to do whatever I say, you would do it right?

"Don Karnage" wrote:

"malik" wrote:

"Don Karnage" wrote:

How are we defining "worship"

Worships means to obey Allah's ordained laws. If Allah says do this, we do that; if Allah says don't do that, we refrain from it.

For example, if Imam Ali asks me to "eat fish", but Allah says "don't eat fish", and I go ahead and eat the fish, then obviously it would mean that I worship Imam Ali. If I worship Allah, I would ignore Imam Ali and refrain from eating fish. This is what true worhip actually is.

All Muslims will never obey anyone who is instructing us to go against the laws set forth by God.

I see. So if I said God told me to tell you to do whatever I say, you would do it right?

Yes. Once I am convinced you are not a liar.

I would have no option but to obey you because you are only telling me God's wishes. You are not telling me to disobey God's Laws. How could I as a believer of God ignore His wishes?

I have to be sure that you are not taking the mick.

"malik" wrote:

Yes. Once I am convinced you are not a liar.

I would have no option but to obey you because you are only telling me God's wishes. You are not telling me to disobey God's Laws. How could I as a believer of God ignore His wishes?

I see.

So [i][b]if a person[/b] thinks[/i], [i]judges[/i] or is otherwise [i]convinced[/i] a self proclaimed Prophet is in fact a liar, God does not oblige said person to follow what the Prophet says even if the Prophet is a true Prophet?

"Don Karnage" wrote:

I see.

So [i][b]if a person[/b] thinks[/i], [i]judges[/i] or is otherwise [i]convinced[/i] a self proclaimed Prophet is in fact a liar, God does not oblige said person to follow what the Prophet says even if the Prophet is a true Prophet?

Yes. God will not ask you why you did not obey Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) because you are not yet convinced that He is chosen of God.

You only accept him as a true Prophet once you are actually convinced He is sent by God.

Imam Jafar Al Sadiq, the sixth Infallible Imam (d. 730 AD) said that God does not require people to go act against their consciences. He loves them too much. He will judge you only on what you actually knew to be true. He won't punish you for having doubts, which is something natural placed by God Himself into all of us.

[size=24][b]WHAT ???? [/b]:?[/size]

"FHPE" wrote:

[size=24][b]WHAT ???? [/b]:?[/size]

Hmm...

Looks like it's source time. Tex -- show us your cards, what are your sources for the above assertion?

FHPE, what are your sources in contrast to his assertion?

Don,

My source of understanding this issue is Quran and hadith !

I wish to ask malik that using that reasoning.... how come abu lahab and pharaoh are then punished......they could have just said that they were not [size=18][b]convinced[/b][/size] !!!

"FHPE" wrote:

Don,

My source of understanding this issue is Quran and hadith !

I wish to ask malik that using that reasoning.... how come abu lahab and pharaoh are then punished......they could have just said that they were not [size=18][b]convinced[/b][/size] !!!

You are going to have to do better than "the Qur'an and ahadith" tell us specifically where this question is answered - quotes preferrably. The same goes for you Tex.

Our Sinless Imams taught that God will never punish an honest person.

Only the liars will be in big trouble when they face God on the Day of Resurrection. That is God says hyporcites will be thrown in the deepest pits of the fire.

When a person honestly has some doubts, then it is not their fault. You cannot blame anyone for being not convinced. Honest person is only using to the best ability their own intellect.

"Mecca Da Lyrical Berretta" wrote:

Malik why don't you respond to the claims made above by Umar?

Brother Admin has done a good job of giving the correct reply. I did not feel need to add to that, unless you have something extra to ask?

"FHPE" wrote:

Don,

My source of understanding this issue is Quran and hadith !

I wish to ask malik that using that reasoning.... how come abu lahab and pharaoh are then punished......they could have just said that they were not [size=18][b]convinced[/b][/size] !!!

We believe that they KNEW the truth but still rejected it - hence called kaafirs.

There is a story about a Sahaabi called habib Yemeni, who was a trader from Yemen naturally. Before he became Muslim, Abu lahab/ Abu Jahal/other who was his friend asked him to assassinate the Prophet (saw). However he was given the caveats that 1. he should not hear anything that the Prohet says because he will convert and 2. He should not look at the face of the Prophet for the same reasons.

During the first ten years of preaching in Makkah, there were only a handful of converts. Maybe a few hundred. Nothing to get riled about, but the leaders were. Muslims were heavily persecuted. This was because the leaders knew. They did not want to give up their lives. They had built a whole social system which was being cast into doubt.

"Admin" wrote:

"UmarIbnAlKatb" wrote:

...Cursing the rightful sahabas is described by many ulemah as being an act of kufr...

Which ones?

It is a major sin, not kufr.

The only where criticism can lead to kufr is Ummul Mu'mineen Aisha Siddeeqa (Radiallahu ta'aala anhaa), as her purity is mentioned in a verse of the Qur'an.

You're wrong, and you obviously didnt read the article I posted.

[u]Imaam Maalik[/u]
During a class of Imaam Maalik, it was mentioned that the Raafidite Shi`ites curse the Sahaabah. In reply, he quoted the Quranic verse, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and those with him are harsh with the disbelievers and gentle among themselves. So that the disbelievers may become enraged with them." He then said, [b]"Whoever becomes enraged when the Sahaabah are mentioned is one about whom the verse speaks." [/b][Tafseeer al-Qurtubee, Soorah al-Fath; Editor's note: [b]That is, anyone who is enraged by the mention of the Sahaabah is a disbeliever, because the verse says, "...the disbelievers may become enraged with them (Sahaabah)."][/b]

[u]Abu Zur`ah ar-Raazee[/u]
This great scholar was quoted as saying, [b]"If you see someone degrade any of the companions of the Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam, know that he is a disbeliever."[/b]

[u]Al-Qaadee Abu Ya`laa[/u]
It was reported that Abu Ya`laa said, [b]"The position of jurists concerning one who curses the Sahaabah, believing that such an act is permissible, is that he has committed an act of disbelief." [/b][Ibn Taymeeyah, as-Sawaarim al-Maslool, p. 569]

[u]At-Tahaawee[/u]
In his book on the Islamic creed, al-`Aqeedah at-Tahaawiyyah, the author states, "[b]We love the companions [/b]of Allaah's Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam, without going overboard in our love of anyone of them or remaining aloof (tabarra) from any of them. We hate those who hate them or speak ill of them and we [b]only speak well of them. Loving them is a religious act, and an expression of faith and righteousness while hating them is an act of disbelief, hypocrisy and transgression."[/b] [Sharh al-`Aqeedah at-Tahaawiyyah, p. 528]

[u]Imaam al-Aloosee[/u]
[b]He declared the Raafidite Shi'ites disbelievers because of their defamation of the Sahaabah. His position was based on the rulings of Imam Malik and other scholars who were in agreement with him.[/b]

Some of those are based on like insults to Ummul Mu'mineen Aisha Siddeeqah (ra), some for others.

Also, the nature of Shia's has changed over time. We cannot wolesale accept past verdicts based on a different criteria.

Besides in matters of belief you cannot do taqleed. It is forbidden. Only in actions are you allowed to do taqleed. There needs to be evidence, and the views of scholars, whilst held in regard are not the be all and end all in such situations.

Besides the first post in this topic did say no Shia bashing.

Let the shia's answer their own questions.

I do not want to hear what a sunni believes that a shia believes. I want to hear what the shia believes without the translation layer.

PS is there a different betwiin a shia and a rafidite shia? just wondering.

Maybe you are asking for too much.

He will not convince us of the validity of his views. He has given us his views on temporary marriage. We do not accept it - and we probably wouldn;t even if the arguments were strong. Simple really.

I just want to know what they are. I can accept the lack of acceptance as long as I know.

For me, there is too much "they say this" that I want uncovered. Get it from its source. A shia telling what he believes is more convincing than a sunni telling us what a shia believes.

This thread is really turning messy :?

From my observances - summary of shia differences:

1. Differing shahada - shia add 'Ali (karamAllahu wajhu) is the friend of Allah and the rightful Caliph'

2. Shi'a believe in imamate, whereas Sunnis believe in Caliphate

2.1 They believe that leadership of the Ummah should only pass down to the direct descendants of the prophet

2.2 They believe that Ali (karamAllahu wajhu) was the rightful successor to the Prophet

2.3 They believe that an Imam can only be appointed by Allah swt - either declared thus by the Prophet or by the preceeding Imam, whereas Sunnis elect the Caliphs

3. Shias bind themselves only to refer to the ahl al-Bait (prophet (saw)'s family) for deriving the sunnah of the rasul - but they follow the Quran and Sunnah just like the Sunnis

4. In term of sources, Shias have different books of ahadith (ie Nahaj al-Balagha) - giving preference to those narrated by Ali (karamAllahu wajhu) and Fatima (radiAllahu anhu) (ie preference to the ahl al-Bait)

5. That Allah swt has appointed 12 Imams (ithna Asheri) to succeed the Prophet saw - the 12th Imam being the Imam al-Mahdi

6. That the last (12th) Shia Imam (Al-Askari) (last direct descendent through the line of Ali (karamAllahu wajhu)) has gone into hiding, but will return some time in the future. He was to be Imam al-Mahdi.

7. Since the last Shia Imam has gone into hiding (Imam al-Ghaib), a council of 12 shia ulema elected an Imam to rule - the best known of these Imams is Ayatollah Khomeni..

8. The Imams are infallibile, revered highly and have the same status and rank as the prophets of Allah saw - much like the Catholic Pope and Catholic system of power/rule - so you follow them as you would follow any other Prophet of Allah swt - belief in the imamate is one of the pillars of Islam in Shia belief

9. Whilst you can have many differing scholastic interpretations and rulings from sunni ulema, (Shia) Islam is transmitted through the Imams, and their rulings are binding and supreme - as they are infallible and on par with the prophets saw

10. Other differences, such as different adhan is called, prayers are combined (3 as opposed to 5 a day), different method of wudhu, Mu'ta, taqiyah

11. The current Qur'an is not in its complete form - the other part is with Imam al-Mahdi

12. That not all of the Shahbas were steadfast in the deen after the passing away of the prophet saw - it is said that some of the sahabas went against the ahl al-Bait, and therefore they should not be followed.. Some were steadfast though, including Salman al-Farsi, Abu Dharr, etc

13. Grest reverence of the shrines, mausoleums and tombs of the Imams and martyrs.. so many Shias visit the shrines in Karbala, Najaf, etc

"Mecca Da Lyrical Berretta" wrote:

But I do hope Malik opens up a lil more so he can silence the 'critics' if you will, and cover the shia view on important issues such as temporary marriage etc.

To be fair on Malik, he isnt an Shia scholar, so-to-speak, so we cannot reasonably expect him to answer all our shia-related queries, much like we probably wouldnt be able to answer all (sunni) islam related questions posed to us..

[size=9]
(please freely correct my understanding of Shia belief if its gone wrong anywhere)[/size]

"Amal" wrote:

This thread is really turning messy :?

Okay let's all back off.

I deliberately set Tex up to say something that would turn into a Shia/Sunni schism to get back at him for those comments about the United States. The point was to get everybody angry at him and isolate him.

Which was kind of manipulative and nasty, but I kind of felt compelled to do it since I didn't want to flip out. It was wrong so I apologize.

I'll just do this directly:

Malik change your signature, stop attacking America, Christianity and Jews in your posts it's unnecessary and offensive.

Thanks.

"FHPE" wrote:

What I wish to ask those who deny seeking intercession of the prophet (S.AW), is what they will do on the day of judgement.

Assalamualikum FHPE, I don't think we've met. Welcome to here.

I've found the above to be a common response in support of the concept of intercession.

We've got three different situations here, which I get the feeling are looked as one.

1. Our beloved prophet Rasulullah (s.a.w) had asked Imam Ali (r.a) for help.

2. We Muslims in the present day, asking Rasulullah (s.a.w) and Ali (r.a) to personally ask Allah (s.w.t) for help on our behalfs.

3. Running to Rasulullah (s.a.w) during yomal qiyama to asking him to ask Allah (s.w.t) for forgiveness.

---

Clearly they're three different situations.

Situation 1 - Rasulullah (s.a.w) and Ali (r.a) were alive. I see no references to calling on the prophets that have left us, or how the view of calling to them are derived from this act.

Situation 3 - Its the day of resurrection. Everyone's gonna be out of their graves. Therefore, we would all be alive again, more alive than we all are now.

---

I mean, its definately interesting discussion. From Brother Maliks responses, it is clear that there is no intention of Shirk as he worships only Allah(s.w.t)

"malik" wrote:

"F4NZO" wrote:

r u talking bwt wen u say yali madat as a kid growing up my parents tauht me to say it when doing a very difficult task e.g picking up something heavy im not sure if this is what you guys are talking about but if it is let me know

That is excatly what I was talking about.

Whenever you do something too hard, you say Ya Ali Madad and then it becomes easy.

Well thats wha was thought not often but growing up as a sunni being a sunni is this wrong? i dont see it was worship but a form of help im not sure because i am not a alim or some one with vast amount of knowledge please can i have some feedback

"malik" wrote:

"Don Karnage" wrote:

I see.

So [i][b]if a person[/b] thinks[/i], [i]judges[/i] or is otherwise [i]convinced[/i] a self proclaimed Prophet is in fact a liar, God does not oblige said person to follow what the Prophet says even if the Prophet is a true Prophet?

Yes. God will not ask you why you did not obey Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) because you are not yet convinced that He is chosen of God.

You only accept him as a true Prophet once you are actually convinced He is sent by God.

Imam Jafar Al Sadiq, the sixth Infallible Imam (d. 730 AD) said that God does not require people to go act against their consciences. He loves them too much. He will judge you only on what you actually knew to be true. He won't punish you for having doubts, which is something natural placed by God Himself into all of us.

so are you saying christians will be forgiven because they rightfully did not believe muhammad pbuh to be the true prophet is that what you are saying

"F4NZO" wrote:

so are you saying christians will be forgiven because they rightfully did not believe muhammad pbuh to be the true prophet is that what you are saying

Yes, people who have any genuine doubts cannot be held accountable.
If a Christians does not truly know who Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was, then why would Allah hold this doubt or ignorance against him or her?

Honest Christians who truly followed Jesus Christ will be forgiven. In our holy book, God praises Christians who are sincere in their faith.
In the Holy Quran, if you read it, Allah has said there are good people among the Ahl Al Kitaab ie Jews and Christians.
God would not burn any sincere person.
It is only the liars that He has a problem with.

I must admit it does seem rather logical, especially in light of some rather peculiar verses and hadiths about Jews and Christians going to paradise.

I want to add that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that is currently presented to Christians or Jews and others, is such that even I would have doubts about him.

Therefore, I would not blame anyone who rejects the false image of Prophet that is presented to them.

Behaviour of some Muslims, eg Al Qaida, is enough to put anyone off from liking the true Prophet. Just as the behaviour of some people who claim to be "Christians" is enough to repel anyone from accepting Jesus.

Do you put any onus on the issue of peoploe actually looking for the truth or not?

If someone looks for the truth, does not find it, is it the same as if someone does not look for it and does not find it?

I believe that truth comes to you provided you are an honest person.
I think that it is God who actually guides a person. No matter how much a person searches for the truth he cannot guide himself.
God said that He does not guide liars. He told us so in the Quran.

There is a Hadith in which a man asked the Prophet (pbuh) that what you have taught me in too complicated for me to comprehend, and I cannot do everything Islam requires of me; so please order me just one thing that would save me from the fire of Hell and allow me to enter the garden of Paradise. Prophet (pbuh) replied just be honest; never tell a lie and you will surely enter paradise.

well what if they denied muhhammad pbuh out of disbelief because that would go against there religion then does that person go to heaven

Some stubborn people are also liars.

now i understand where other people are coming from just cuz i say ali madad doesnt mean i have 2 say in every post i start with or most like malik i think thats where the differenc lies you refer to him for help a lot and you see him in a very high position although we do aswell but not as much as you isnt that right?

What if someone is stubbornly truthful?