[b]Schools allowed to ban face veils[/b]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6466221.stm
Schools will be able to ban pupils from wearing full-face veils on security, safety or learning grounds under new uniforms guidance issued by ministers.
It says efforts must be made to accommodate religious clothing, but stresses the importance of teachers and pupils being able to make eye contact.
It comes after a girl failed in a legal bid to overturn her school's niqab ban.
Islamic groups have been divided in their response - some "shocked" and others welcoming the guidance.
Headteachers' leaders have applauded the decision, saying that it would provide "clarity" and "reassurance" for schools.
The issue of religious dress has become an increasingly complicated one for schools in recent years, with a handful of high profile court cases over the right to wear a full veil.
A court victory by a Buckinghamshire school (which cannot be named for legal reasons) has prompted the updated guidance.
The school argued the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.
Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said.
This position was upheld by the High Court - which refused to grant a judicial review - and is expected to form a key part of the guidance.
'Consult parents'
The guidance says schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and spot intruders.
Jim Knight
Schools Minister Jim Knight says "learning must take precedence""If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.
Schools minister Jim Knight said: "Schools should consult parents and the wider community when setting uniform policy.
"And while they should make every effort to accommodate social, religious or medical requirements of individual pupils, the needs of safety, security and effective learning in the school must always take precedence."
The head teacher of the Buckinghamshire school, who also cannot be named, said it would be very useful to have some clear guidance from the Department for Education and Skills (DfES).
"It's not right that schools should have to be arguing this out case by case," she told the BBC News website.
"Obviously there's a trade-off between schools retaining autonomy over school uniform decisions, on the other hand we will have some very clear guidance from the DfES within which to work."
'Dismayed'
There were divided responses from the Muslim community.
The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, Massoud Shadjareh, said he was "dismayed" by the DfES guidance.
Pupils wearing veils
The guidance has divided opinion within the Muslim community"Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf.
"To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.
But the Muslim Council of Britain's education spokesman, Tahir Alam, said that the new guidance did not "alter the position very much" and said "the vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally".
Dr Tag Hargey of the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the guidance.
"When you conceal the face, that actually not only dehumanises the person involved, but also creates a chasm, a gap, a bridge of non-understanding between communities and I think the sooner we can get rid of this veil, this face veiling, this face masking in Muslim societies across Britain, so much the better."
'Equality issue'
Ayshah Ishmael, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC wearing the veil promoted equality.
She said: "You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue."
The DfES said it was not ordering or advising head teachers to ban the veil, simply confirming that they have the ability to do so if they wish, so long as they carry out proper consultation.
Association of School and College Leaders' general secretary Dr John Dunford said he was pleased the government is supporting school leaders in upholding school uniforms.
"Repeated and blatant breaches of uniform policy undermine the school ethos," he added.
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pls have your say
I dont think niqab should be banned in public life but in schools, the school uniform should be followed, so I have no problems with the ban. Also covering your face is a big no- no in this society. I can honestly see it from the teachers point of view...ie not allow niqab if its security and/or learning obstacle...
the alternative is girls only schools, Islamic schools etc....
So it begins...
Back in BLACK
i think if girls or their parents are concerned about wearing the niqaab, doesn't it make sense for them to be in an all-girls school or islamic school? ofcourse girls-only state schools are fast vanishing and there may be cases where the parent's cannot afford to send their child to a private school. in such cases where the girl has no choice BUT to be in a co-ed environment, i can see why she may want to wear the niqaab, that's sort of the situation i was in at college. but i assume this law only reaches upto year 11 and not colleges, so inshaAllah as more islamic schools get state funded this will be less of a problem for school-going girls.
p.s. they quoted taj hargey again. :roll: i think i'm gonna email the BBC and tell them he is not a 'scholar' in any way, shape or form. his comments hold no weight in this argument because frankly, he doesn't know what he's on about half the time.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
i wasn't gona reply here but i've been speaking to someone about this. He said well if a non muslim entered a muslim school which they have a right to do in this country the teacher would expect him/her to dress according to their uniform i/e jubba/hijab,jilbab&niqab. Under no circumstances would a sister be permitted to wear a short skirt and attend, neither would a brother be permitted to wear tight clothing for example.
So shouldn't muslims be happy to follow the uniform procedures in secular schools so long as it's not compromising their modesty or faith. Most schools allow wearing of long skirts, trousers, salwar kameez and even jilbab with a head scarf. This is a lot more than what was available when my sister went school. back in her day it was knee length skirts for the girls and nothing else. She went to an all girls school, snobby one, they didn't permit trousers. Trousers were seen as "boys" clothing back then. I think we should be content with the options we've been given schools have been accomodating. But it seems like muslims are just asking for more and more. This is prob one reason why a lot of ppl seem to despise us.
If the concept of the niqab is extremely important to the parents and girl in question then surely it is better that she attends an islamic institution where the concept of the niqab will be encouraged. In mixed schools although the barrier is there you are always encouraged to work and talk with the opposite gender, i think it kind of defeats the purpose. I wouldn;t feel comftable doing that.
As dust said all girls schools are an option, however they do have male teachers so what then u can't remove ur veil at all. I think niqabies would have the same trouble there from the school authorities. They're secular schools why are we expecting them to allow it when they don't really have to?
On a negative note i think the government planned to ban the niqab long before jack straw made his comments. Also jack straw is a wise man he's not known to blurt things out like prescott, so i don't buy it that it was a slip of the tongue during one of his surgeries it was a very calculated statement, made to spur things on to gain public support and thus lead to this ban. So here's the ban, i don't think it's long before they try and ban the hijab too. If we think we're immune and our government is oh so moral we must be really blind. Some excuse will be used, it's just a matter of time.
There seems to be a point where confusion surrounds discussion of the matter, particularly when it comes to the suggestion that the government is banning the niqab. The government has not banned the niqab, even from schools, and that is not an idea under serious discussion.
The issue under discussion is the right of schools and employers to ban the niqab, and the courts and government have upheld that right. It remains perfectly OK to wear the niqab.
One consideration is that jihadi campaigns expose Muslims to skepticism on the matter, even if their decision is pious and non-political. I don't think people despise Muslims, but proponents of the niqab might be perceived as at least vaguely hostile to the norms of sensitivity that they are now requesting be applied to them. For my part I do not consider it insensitive to ban the niqab, particularly when we find that legal advocates have been funded by hiz-ut-tahrir or the like.
The other consideration is that schools have a right to expect both uniformity and visibility, and that whereas they are prepared to compromise for religious needs, it would not be intolerant to draw the line at covering the face. The same goes for employers who additionally have profit in mind and who want to be approachable. They may well expect their staff to keep faces visible.
The fact is that the niqab, not really modest or a religious statement or a barrier or whatever, obscures the face and can indicate hostile affiliations or misogyny, and there is not much of a case for it in a liberal society, which will nonetheless generally allow it to be worn. In fact I feel that any expectation for women to wear one is a disgrace, and suspect that those who embrace it voluntarily love to be different and have tended to disregard any objections as bigotry or mere ignorance of Islam, which is untrue.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
yup. It is wether the gov will allow others to ban it, not ban it outright itself
I find this to add confusion to the issue. It should not matter who proposes an idea, but wether the idea has merit.
As long as hijab is allowed in normal secular schools, I have no real issue for school kids:
1. They are kids.
2. They can always go to either an all girls school or a religious school if they feel strong enough about it.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
To an extent. We should know when there is an underlying agenda, else be [url=http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD150807]taken for fools[/url].
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
Everyone has an angle. Everyone knows that.
It is not as if in that example war supporters would be just sitting there twiddling their thumbs either.
I call trying to convince falterers advocacy.
if someoen is unsure no a matter, give them yuor view. Tell them why you are in the right. Get their support. Sounds simple enough.
Trying to play it any other way is just scare tactics.
"Support the war! Or these moozlems will convince your chiildren that it was wrong to invade another country! Somebody think of the children!"
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
This might be one of those times you didn't read the article properly.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
Probably.
I see it is quiting people telling advocates to lie.
But then again, with most things like this lies can be spotted outright.
Not many people will take the words of a stranger on a forum to heart unless they have previously built up soke trust.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Obviously a jihadi seeking to undermine support for the west in a non-political forum does see tactical value in the activity, especially if they are inventing a military background and a bunch of stories.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
3. Are you right to think that there is an underlying agenda whenever a Muslim woman tries to defend her right to wear a niqaab?
4. What does an unnamed poster on some "Islamist" website giving out tips on little mind games to be played on a few of the gazzilion web forums on the net have to do with all this?
5. Are you suggesting that any American on the internet who opposes the occupation of Iraq is actually Abdullah sitting in a cave in Afghanistan trying to incite otherwise loyaly subserviant Americans to rebelion againt the Dear Leader?
6. Does this mean we all have to do the opposite and go on American web forums to foster support for the war?Luckily I was not drinking any tea.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
But reducing my points to the absurd does nothing to invalidate them.
No, you don't have to do the opposite of Hizb-ut-Tahrir, you can do what you like, but if they covertly back a claim of discrimination brought by a woman who wants to wear niqab to work, the claim has less credibility, especially if many Muslims insist the niqab is not required.
No, nothing wrong with pride in being different, but it is not the same as pious adherence.
No, I don't insist there is an underlying agenda whenever a woman wears the niqab, but the covering of a woman's face is mandated by radical groups who often do have such an agenda, and I don't take that for granted.
The link to the article was merely to demonstrate that there are jihadi deceptions going on that pose themselves as innocuous. Therefore I am not convinced there is nothing insidious taking place.
No, I didn't suggest that every opinion against the war is consistent with this article telling Muslims to lie and deceive posing as anti-war Americans. There are plenty of Americans who genuinely oppose the war.
That ridicule was low. My previous comments were straight.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
None that I got to know very well, *DUST*. I can think of a particularly loud campaigner for the hijab who I knew pretty well, but my opinion isn't based on her.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
You're more prejudiced than i first thght, it's really sad. what an oxymoron to say liberal societies can't accept it, the word liberal needs to be altered.
You have so many steroetypes about niqabies it's quite unbelievable, and you've even completely disregarded the religious grounds on which some women choose to wear it. Whether u accept the religious grounds is another issue, but the fact remains there are those that believe there is religious evidence for it.
To say that i wear it just because i want to make a provocative statement and be "seen" in society as "different" is really absurd. I put myself open to abuse from the public coz i want to be different? i think not. There are easier ways to get attention if making statement was all it was about. I do have a life with more purpose than that, i don't live to be "seen" by others.
I don't think from reading this that the government is being honest about its intentions with this proposed action.
Britain is hyper-sensitive about issues like veils and other outward displays of foreign affiliation that "rock the boat." Your government thinks it is their responsibility to prevent this so their answer is "integration." Integration doesn't appear to mean anything but does seem to generate a lot of hype.
That's what this is really about.
i have no problem with them banning it though, more correctly "permitting schools to ban it if they wish to".
this country prides itself in having an integrated multi faith multi cultured society, but it has failed in many areas by turning a blind eye. Why make ghettos for example. why are there areas which are known as "black areas", "bangladeshi/pakistani areas" "white areas" and completely "run down areas" where all sorts exist. These ghettos have just prevented ppl from interacting more naturally. Now the government wants some sort of a quick fix, and for some odd reason they think it's a good idea to begin by integrating "veiled women" .
They were talking about America on the radio and it's problems with ghettos and the huge race problem. Well the way the brits were speaking ud think this country was immune from it or something. many of the same problems exist just on a smaller scale perhaps.
But I didn't say that. I said that I don't believe there is a place in liberal societies for expecting women to wear it, but that it is permitted.
I don't completely disregard the religious grounds. I mentioned, though, that I don't think wearing it is an act of modesty.
Why do you wear it?
yashmaki, why? Honestly curious.
[size=10]The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.[/size]
[size=9]Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)[/size]
schools are right to ban the niqab
however-i can see this being a problem if then the wider society starts to enforce the ban too
Western nations claim to be civilised. But they are behaving worse than China.
Schools have no right to force girls to take of any item of clothing. Their duty is to teach knowledge to pupils. They should not be dictators. It is setting a bad example to children.
Niqab is the right of any girl who wants to wear it.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
which they cant do if little girls cover their faces
i taught my sister how to read via phonics
and seeing the shape of the mouth when words are pronounced is the phonics method
thats how all young kids learn how to read
high school etc shud be more flexible
after all thats the actual age when hijab becomes fard anyway
Yes they can.
It is a type of discrimination that girls will have to face where they cannot where the niqab.
However for the bigger picture most will have to grin and bear it.
Obviously they cannot catch the girls chewing gum in class, but hey, it depends on where their priorities lie.
The Niqab may not be essential, and even less so for young girls, but it is still a right that is being encroached upon.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
u mean phonics for little girls as in primary school kids? Well girls of that age wouldn't wear niqab anyways would they :? Or do you mean something else?
Mr Admin have u actually ever taught a little girl to read?
I doubt it
if u had then you'd know that to teach a child how to read the alphabet YOU NEED TO SEE THEIR LIPS MOVE
the same applies for the teacher who is TEACHING the child how to read
the kid needs to see her lips so he/she knows how to form his/her lips
so in terms of phonics
the NIQAB RESTRICTS TEACHING
this issue isnt about bubble gum :roll:
also hijaab isnt fard for most primary school children
so why would they want to wear a niqab which restricts their games and playing around?
yep thats what i meant
okies 100 u prob never read my post coz it was kinder long.
i wear it not coz i believe it's obligatory (altho i understand this stance), but i tend to believe it's a recommended act of worship, an extra act of worship that pleases God. I think it is a statement of modesty although sadly coz of various reasons it's often wrongly linked with terrorism. I was attracted to it after reading about the wives of our prophet and the early women of islam. That's it basically.
I don't have a problem with the ban in schools because it's regarding secular co ed schools. If parents are really concerned about their daughters modesty to the extent they want her to wear a niqab then it seems to be working against the grain to send her to such a school, where it is expected for boys and girls to work together and speak to each other.
I think secular schools do enough already by providing trousers, salwar kameez, headscarves and even jilbabs in some. We are asking for a bit too much by "demanding" these non religious schools allow our daughters to wear niqabs.
A girl in niqab should really attend an islamic institution where this level of modesty will be respected understood, and encouraged. Rather than a non religious school where the opposite will often occur.
lilsis primary school kids dunt wear niqab do they, u ever seen them in it?
I have seen some wee girls wearing niqabs but that was to a conference. The parents must have made a mini niqab for them. To be honest i find that disturbing. a girl under the age of puberty doesn't even need to wear a headscarf although it should be encouraged so once they're older they happily wear one. But a niqab as a kid why? that's not cute it's just really sad. let the kid be a kid.
i know a girl that is one year younger then my sister who is a part time niqaabi
and my sister is a tiny 9 year old
my whole argument was regarding primary schools
why does she wear the niqab at blimin eight? what's the justification or do u get the impression her parents made her wear it? :? :?
A teacher is responsible for a lot. She doenst 'just teach'. In my last placement, in consultation with the other teachers, a child in my class was taken into care.
This wasn’t something that took place straight away…obviously, we had to observe this child for months…we had to record suspicious bruising, scratches etc on her body (usually when she was changed for PE or was wearing short sleeves)…we’d notice when she was unusually withdrawn, sombre and depressed looking.
We contacted social services who found out that she was being abused at home…she’s in a care home now and she’s much more happier...
The point I’m trying to make is that, non of the teachers would have had any insight into what was going on if she was covered in a niqab....and because a child spends most of their time with the teacher, it is his/her right to report any issues.
Usually, when a child gets put into care its usually after months or years of teacher observation.
In my training I’m being taught to look out for tell tale sign of physical/emotional/sexual etc abuse….most of which can only be spotted if you see signs of abuse on the face or body. …and you can only do that if a child is not totally covered up...
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