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I can understand what you’re saying. However I have tried to look for scholars on the internet, I’ve emailed several people and not had a response back from them. I have a Muslim girl who helps me out whoever she is on a holiday don’t really know what she is going to come back. Anyway I’ve been on Sunni path; they banned me for asking some of the questions I did. Also I had to wait a long time to get a response even then it was still not very satisfactory. I asked in the Qu’ran it says everything obeys Allah right? Then how did Satan disobey Allah when Allah told him to bow? Never really got a decent answer to my question, it was either “Allah knows best” or “Satan is not like a human” these are not answers to the questions. Majority of the Muslims don’t want you to question these things. Now you will probably say I need to see a scholar. Its always I need to see someone I don’t understand or I am trying to interpret things.

Satan is a Jinn. Jinns, like humans have free will. So we can do what we like. We can choose to follow Islam and be blessed from its message, or we can choose to be stubborn ignore it. Satan CHOSE not to bow. He chose to disobey.

Perhaps you get answers, but you refuse to acknowledge them. You dont hear what it being said. Its like an ardent athiest. No matter how many times you may mention the existence of God, they will deny it, and probably disagree with nearly every aspect of religion altogether. The fact is that they dont believe and they REFUSE to believe. Stubborness? Arrogance? Misguidance? You cant give advice to a heedless person.

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Yes I am looking at things openly. Come on dear you’re speaking to me as if I am a little child or something I am a fully grown rational free thinking human being. Of I be anymore open-minded my brain will fall out.

Didnt realise that you would take offense in being asked a few questions. :\\ But theres nothing wrong in clarifying, is there?. I just sincrely hope that you appreciate the standpoint that you are taking, because it seems, whatever someone says to you here, you come back and (with respect) have something or other to say in reply to it. I dont want this conversation to turn into one where it seems like im talking to a brick wall. Otherwise thats pointless, and ive seriously got better things to get on with then!

You know, theres an old arab proverb: You will never reach Makkah if you are on the road to Turkistan (Turkey). So i am asking, for your sake really, to be sure that you are sincrely looking for guidance, rather than merely "confirming" to yourself - as you said in your initial post - that Islam is not real.

'We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains fall out' - Richard Dawkins
true. Its a common premise by agnostics, athiests, humanists, etc that Muslims, etc are narrow minded and stubborn. But i think the opposite is true. When a person who is sincere and honest is misguided, and hears the truth, he will either stop being misguided or stop being honest.

Is it any wonder that the Qur'an says to those who deny the truth - lakum deenakum wa liya deen - to you to your way and me to mine
Sometimes no matter what you say, they will not hear you. Set in their ways, unwilling to budge. Stubborn to the end.

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That confuses me. You are happy and forthcoming to locate and look for hadith for me that say something or the other about Muhammad (saws). But you cant seem to locate and look for scholarly answers, or read more widely rather than anti-islam websites, maybe some philosophers and a few ahadith?

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That was so that you understand I am not making things up, hence why I said that I would find you the actual hadith. Now it’s easy to locate the hadith there are 100s of websites. I read all sorts of martial from science to metaphysics to theology and philosophical works. I don’t just go on an anti-Islam website, however I would listen to the argument they are presenting. Just because they are anti Islam doesn’t make their claims false even a broke clock is right twice a day.

While i appreciate that you want to go on these websites and see the arguments they put up, i really dont think that you are in any position to be able to refute several of them because you basically lack the knowledge to do so. No wonder you are left dazed and confused. You are not equipped with the necessary tools. You come back and assume yourself to be a muhaddith and faqih. Generally, those who call themselves knowledgeable are the least. If a person has self-conceit in themselves, they will never hear the truth.

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If its on the internet I will go and find it. Or at least try to. If you have links, I will read them give me em’ only thing throughout you’ve said I am not sincere in searching or I am looking in the wrong spots, yet you haven’t game me any half decent links I could check out. The ones you give me I already have. This just proves that I also read on Islamic websites and not just anti Islam websites.

So you try learn and interpret Islam from what you read from the internet? Knowledge all throughout history, has always travelled down from Scholar to student. You dont become a doctor through reading textbooks. Ive never heard of a professional cook who has only looked at food through pictures. How can a person presume that they can begin to absorb and understand Islam by reading titbits from websites? Thats not learning. Thats why you need a scholar to clarify issues that you are unable to comprehend.
Internet scholars are all the range now. elearning is so commonplace now. Take an ayat from here, a hadith from there, stick in a bit of tafseer maybe. :ss

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Tell me where I can find the scholars. Maybe you’re right, maybe I just want to believe Islam is not true because I want to do, drinking, drugs fornication, adulatory etc… Maybe I should get off my lazy behind and really do something with my life. Rather then crying out some verses and hadeeth I don’t understand.

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So I should marry a 9 year old girl? Come on yaar you think I am getting funny with you here? This is exactly what the holy prophet Mohamed did. It reminds me of when Christians say we should be like Jesus, and then they says Jesus was a god, how the hell is a humanoid supposed to be a god? And plus in my respective country if I did marry a 9 year old girl I’d be locked up for paedophilia. I really have good intentions, but (blah blah blah)

Our beloved Prophet (saws) was a perfect guide to humanity.

Historically, early marriage was the norm. There are various historical examples where it is shown that girls married much earlier than they do today. Times change. Just over 100 years ago, it was normal to be a size 16 - all the photographs and pictures from Victorian times attest to this. But times have changed since then. From our beloved Prophet (saws) time to now.

Just ask any of your aunts/grandparents when they got married - theyll most probably verify it to you as well. My own older aunt got married when she was about 13-14 (and this wasnt all that long ago) - that was the norm then, even though it may not be the norm now.
Girls mature at different ages. I STILL hear of young girls today getting married.

Another point is that there is discreprency of Aisha's exact age at the time of her marriage. Keeping tabs on dates were not practiced for the nomadic arabs to a degree as it is today. People remember A'isha (ra) for her great knowledge, wisdom, memory. For her courage and steadfastness and generosity. These are matters that people have chosen to focus on - and rightly so - not her age, her height, size, eye colour and other such matters - that we do in our superfical society today. Mualima Ruqayya Waris Maqsood has written an interesting piece on this matter. Perhaps you could read that too?

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He had wife’s some which he conquered and taken in war. Like Saffiya. She was about 20 or something. How is that not desire?

Our beloved Prophet (saws) was concerned for the ummah. (Remember Ummati, Ummati). His concern was in strengthening Islam and the Muslims. The nomadic arabs pre-Islam were warmongerers, disunited by petty feuds and fighting. They were greatly disunited, but united through Islam. Muhammad (saws) generally remarried for sociopolitical reasons. Islam was gaining presence in the Arabian penninsular and surrounding countries. Not only was there a real need to create unity, but also form links and contacts with surrounding places and people. Marriage not only created solid bonds between tribes and religions, but also fostered friendships between peoples and with far distance countries.

He (saws) also got married to Khadijah (ra) - his first wife - 15 years his SENIOR when he was 25 years - and remained with her until her death. He didnt remarry until after her death. Were it the case that fulfilling desire was the aim, it wouldnt make sense that he didnt marry multiple times in his youth, right?

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I am willing to accept the truth, but the truth wants a part of me to reject Islam. Maybe I am wrong,

Shaytan is always looking for a way to get to a person. Sin the refusal of our glorious potential.

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Ali Sina, has debated with many Muslim “scholars” – but I think he is about of a coward he has to hide behind his monitor I have more respect for Ayaan Hirsi.

Sina makes commets like "all Muslims are stupid" and "islam should be eradicated" (im not making that up, its there in the website) - and we should expect him to accept defeat when he is wrong? :roll:
Ayaan Hirsi doesnt have anything all that constructive to say. Ive read MUCH more meatier works by other non-muslim writers on Islam like Fatima Merssini. She just seems like a bit of tabloid jumbo looking for some lime-light.

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There are also counter refutations.

They are a place of confusion for you because you lack the knowledge to refute their 'claims' yourself.
Just because you at the moment do not understand how to answer them, it doesnt mean its wrong, right?
There are probably counter-refutations to those refutations. Ive read some of Ali Sina's supposed 'refutations' - a lot of the time he just reiterates the same point over and over again and wont listen. Its about guidance. May Allah swt grant him guidance. Ameen

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Can you not find me the links? I mean where am I supposed to find these books give me links etc.

Try a good bookshop maybe. These books are classics, and not 'light' reading to say the least.

try http://alghazzali.org/ for a start

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I do want to expand my reading. Sometimes I get caught up in things and lose concentration majority of the time. I think too much about girls. And I think I should be out partying rather then reading stuff.

Well, youth are easily confused and swayed by ideas. They require more guidance, sometimes, than at any other time in their life.

Sort yourself out properly. Stop wasting your life browsing the internet. Get out. Learn Islam from a scholar - as it has always been done. Be focused. Get a job. Contribute to society. Become the best you can be. Get married. And then you can party all you want. Simple.

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I knew about them websites since about 1 – 2 years ago. I have read the articles. But they do no have a any forums, like faithfreeom does. I even emailed one of them websites and offered them to setup a forum so we can refute them. But no one emailed me back.

Muslim society is still growing. The internet is a reflection of this. This are changing slowly but surely alhamdulilah. Maybe in the future inshaAlah.

Why dont you build up your iman, focus on finding the answers and build your own website refuting the sad likes of ali sina et al. - who it seems have not life except dissemminating hate materials against Islam. How cold and calculating. How can a person spend all their time doing this makes me wonder.

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How many Muslims are on this forum? If I posted something good about Mohammed on ffi. 100s of users would rip it all apart in seconds. Are Muslims [banned word] or something? In all honesty on ffi. I met kafirs who know more about Islam then Muslims. Hell even ex Muslim women knew more then me. And one of them said to me “and I am supposed to believe I am dumber then you in intellect” – hell yeah she had a point she was schooling me all over the forum.

A donkey laden with books doesnt mean that the donkey is any more intelligent or any more wise.

If a person is too arrogant, and refuses to believe, even if the WHOLE WORLD was to come and tell them that they were wrong, they would not listen. They will only believe and hear what they WANT to believe and hear. To expect them to shut down a site or accept a refutation as just plain ridiculous. Even their refutations are weak and baseless. It comes down to simple misguidance. Thats sad. May Allah swt place the light of guidance in their hearts. Ameen.

Youve been making excuses for not attempting to develop your understanding. Everyone here is suggesting that you speak to those more knowledgeable, but its as if you havent heard. Are you really looking with an open mind then? Or are you content with the what (few) ahadith that youve read. </p> <p>So all the Muslims on this forum are not knowable about Islam? Maybe I should go on ffi. where they are knowledgeable about Islam? See you’re argument is based on a fallacy. It always comes back to about me not making an effort on no looking in the right spot or not talking to knowledgeable Muslims. I mean come on.[/qoute] </p> <p>No-one hear said that they are knowledgeable on Islam. We're all students on this path. Knowledge isnt something you buy from a shop. Its earned. I could memorise a few ahadith and pretent that i am knowledgeable. Knowledge is nothing without wisdom, that thats whats lacking.</p> <p>[quote wrote:

Yeah you have a point, but still. Why can I find explanations also? Why in the hadith is just a story and we are told not to interpret it ourselves? Why isn’t there an explanation to the hadith? Come on surely some Islamic scholar has interpreted it already. So maybe you might have links? To already interpreted hadiths?

There are books explaining ahadith - i said in my previous post - al-Fath al-Bari is a book explaining the hadith of Sahih Bukhari. I dont know of any online websites that give explanations to the ahadith. But im sure a good bookshop would have them. Another issue is that many of the more classical works have not been translated into English unfortunately. This may present a disadvantage to some of us because of our inability to understand Arabic, (and also probably become swayed when we hear things that dont make sense to us).

The fact is that Islamic resources are scarce to us in the West, and scholars can sometimes be hard to find everywhere. We should be humble and realise that Islam is not a toy we play with. How many questions were posed to Imam Malik (rahimullah) that he said 'i dont know' - why are we not just as cautious?

You cant interpret the hadith if you havent even studied the Qur'an first, can you. Have you read the entire Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, ibn Majah, abu Dawud - and i dont just mean the translated versions? Do you know their chains of narrations? Do you know the background of the peoples that narrated them? Do you know the status' of their authenticity? etc

In fact, do you know what things are fards in wudu are? - thats basic learning - it used to be taught to young 9 year olds historically - yet sadly today in adulthood. So if we are lacking in the BASICS, how absurd does it sound when someone says that they are ready to interpret ahadith.

What those folks do is bring an ayat from here, a hadith from there and give it an interpretation themselves. What is also sad is that they probably got it from a translated copy (originals can never be fully translated) English source or heard it online, then made their own explanations.

But giving understanding of the ahadith is not their role but for a muhaddith, a faqih, etc - not for Mr. Joe Bloggs.

May Allah bestow you with the beautiful light of guidance. Ameen.

"Sirus" wrote:

ADMIN....i thawt you cant insult the Prophet (Saw), as per Rules and Regulations.......i find a lot of things he said extreely insluting

It is against the rules. Thing is I aint read Raj's posts, so I would have thought others mods would make the relevant edits.

It may have been noticed but recently I have not been moderating much. leaving it to others.

Here something interesting about early marriages in history. Perhaps it will shed a little more light as well.

Historically and Statistically
In Ancient Rome, people didn't marry because they were in love. Folks married to carry on the family bloodline and for economical or political reasons. Women were under the jurisdiction of their fathers, so [u]young girls were often married off when they were between the ages of twelve and fourteen. Some young men married at the age of fourteen also[/u].

During the Middle Ages, the practice of youthful marriages continued and [u]women married as early as fourteen[/u]. Men generally waited until they were more established in life which was usually when they were in their twenties or early thirties. In 1371, due to the plague, the average age at marriage for men was 24, and for women it was 16. By 1427, the average male of all classes did not wed til he was in his mid-30's, usually choosing a bride about half his age.

Rich girls seemed to marry at a younger age than poor girls.
It is obvious from a historical perspective that marriages of teenagers (at least teenage girls) were quite common. However, that trend has changed in most countries of the world. Today, young love is neither encouraged or readily accepted by society.

Why are so many people against young married love? Because it is believed that more than 1/2 who marry in their teens will be divorced within 15 years. That is a pretty sobering statistic.

Additionally, according to the Center for Law and Social Policy, "Compared to girls who marry later, teenage brides have less schooling, less independence,and less experience of life and work." Teen brides are also at more risk for being abused and living at poverty levels.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenmarriage.htm

And heres a short answer for you:

[b]The reason the Prophet Muhammad married A'isha (ra), was because it was a divine order from God. Both Muhammad (saws) and Aisha (ra)'s father put their trust in God. The result of the marriage? Very successful. The end.[/b]

what's a pedophilia? (i've checked the dictionary, its not there)

"Raj" wrote:

"zara" wrote:

what's a pedophilia? (i've checked the dictionary, its not there)

http://www.answers.com/pedophile&r=67

thank you for the defenition.

Aslmalikum,

Well Raj, I am happy that you have accpeted my apology.

[Its not that I do not understand, I understand pretty clearly. I want to know how it was justified. Seems very strange, it’s as if the hadeeth are written by non-Muslims to belittle the prophet./quote]

Raj, let me ask you this, do you believe that if Allah swt commanded something to be done, it would happen? If your answer is yes then accept as to that. Why did Moses (as) go the the pharoah? Why was Abraham (as) going to sacrafice his son? Why did Jesus (as) go against the Roman Empire? - Answer to this is Allah swt told them to. If Allah swt builds a universe with marshallah beautiful stars, moons and planet, what problem does He swt have in commanding Prophet Muhammad PBUH to marry Aisha (ra)? 'He just says to it 'Be!' and it is.' (Surat al-Imran 47) Thus, If Prophet Muhammad PBUH married Aisha (ra) and Allah swt commanded him to, what is the problem?

Raj you need to look beyond your friends, do not 'live by the religion of your friend' as your friend will seek whats best for him and not you. Do not put faith in your friend as your friend is a spec of dust infront of the Almighty. Il tell you a story: 'when I was completing my degree, I tried so hard to achieve a grade. Despite my attempts I kept on failing. I believed that I was the writer of my destiny. On my numerous attempts I turned to Allah swt. I asked Him swt that I need His swt help and after that I was succesful. Moral: Doesnt matter what you do, you need the Almighty. My friends were useless to me.

[I don’t want my apostate (friend) go to hell because of Allah she’s a good person from what I know about her./quote]

Raj, Allah swt knows your friend better than you know her. Allah swt is the Most Merciful, in all my life I have seen miracles that many of us see in out dreams, I have seen things that I wish to speak off, but when I do the listeners think it was made up. I am the Reminder to remind the people what they are to do, before the 'sun rises from the West'! [May Allah swt guide me to be successful and may He swt protect me from all evil and may I fulfil my destiny that He swt has written out for me ameen]
The mercy of Allah swt is beyond anything you or anyone else has imagined. Think of it this was: commit one evil, you get one bad deed, commit one good, you get 10 good deeds. Allah swt is the Greatest Allahamdillah.

Raj I have answers for you every question..... Inshallah

[And the culture I come form is not very forgiving even someone has wronged you without reason. I am talking about Jatt culture here/quote]

you have to be forgiving and tolerant to others. Think of the way I see it: If someone has wronged me I forgive him/her. Do you know why? I am trying to stop people going to hell therefore: 'make allowances for people' (Surat 7:199). You have to raj: 'Pardon them and overlook, God loves good-doers' (Surat Qu'ran 5:13). Allah swt forgives those that ask for forgivness. We are all sinners, May Allah swt forgive all of us and protect us from the unseen that will become the seen! Ameen

However, culture is not complicated. This is for everyone: Yes there is culture, but do you know why a mosque in China has similarities to a mosque in the USA of Australia - such as a court yard, minarets etc? Because Allah swt wants us to break down this barrier that we call culture in the muslim world, He swt wants us to learn of other tribes and groups in the world. Even better example, why do all of us pray towards the Ka'baa? Its regarding unity, why does not the culture matter then? Culture is what is separating us from Islam. It doesn't matter if your a Jatt or what ever, Your a Muslim!!!

[whole point why doesn’t Allah help someone when they sincerely ask for his help how can Allah be merciful, compassionate when he likes to see his own creation suffer?quote]

Raj, come on! - This life is a test, surely if Allah swt wanted to stop all the suffering in the world, He swt could have. The test is to know who is a good person and who isn't? Who believes in Allah swt? Let me tell you, there was the Prophet Jacob (Yakub) (ra) who had everything. A loving wife, kids, house, money. One day, Allah swt sent diseases into his house, he and his family fell ill. He lost the house and everything, the wife said: 'why is Allah swt doing this?' He replied: 'Dont you question Allah swt'. There was a maggot in his skin eating away that fell off from his leg. He picked the maggot up and placed it back onto the leg replying: 'Allah swt has asked you to eat me, so eat me!!!'. Raj dont you see, that is a believer, who didnt give up even when he was getting eaten and at worst times. We are nothing compared to that, but there is nothing stopping us from changing out perception as a Muslim to be more trusting in Allah swt - which were not, when our mortgage doesnt get the clearance we start to complain, be patient, be patient, be patient, be patient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blowing up passengers planes, Allah swt doen not approve of killing innocent civillians. 'If someone has killed another person... it is as if he had murdered all mankind' (Surat 5:32) Dont give into the idiotic teachings and pretentious media reporting, the best truth is the 'one that you search yourself'!!

[I know of an extremist mosque near where I live which my dad told me to stay away because they are “whabbis” /quote]

Not the right way to go about it. They will teach you what they only want you to know. First research yourself, know the basics Raj. I am not going to go into the Whabbi sect of Islam, but read into the El Sunnat, Go back to 624 and see what Islam was, the Whabbis have only been around in the past 200 hundred years, they are not the best of teachers in Islam, listen to your father, he is right.

[72 virgin things. But then again I might not because they are going to look like freaks anyway if they are real. quote]

Raj be careful, dont discredit the creation of Allah swt as you too are a creation and Allah swt is the Most Just and Most Merciful. You get awarded for what you do in this life in the hereafter which is an eternal time. Let me remind you: Embrace Islam, even with the questions you may have and see how much Allah swt loves you - as upon embracing you are trusting Allah swt and He swt will bring you to the light Himself.

[Maybe I need to be more of a man and get over this apostate woman, I’m acting really emotional I need to use my brain. And be more of a man and stop wasting my time. /quote]

Raj, you are at present blind, not in the eyes but in the heart - embrace Islam and let freely 'Allah swt enter your heart and purify it' inshallah ameen. The apostate woman, is not going to lay with you in the grave - only you will - you will account for your actions not her - do not attach your self to a limited being - attach yourself to the greatest being Allah swt the Almighty!!!

Raj bro - I pray that you understand what I have written, and I hope everyone understands what I have written - We need to be a unity as a 'fist has more force than one or two fingers'

May Allah swt forgive me if I have err in this statment.

Walikumslaam.

Aslamalikum,

May Allah swt be praised - Allahamdilliah!!!!

Take Care Bro, and may you never again lose your path and may Allah swt protect and guide you and everyone else through their timely lives. Ameen.

Walikumsalaam