"MuslimSister" wrote:

Salaam

[b]I’m not sure what my own thoughts are regarding this issue. [/b]

Wasalaam

OMG...MS, n not havin sum wisdomic view on a topic, never thought i'd see the day, all hell may break lose today.

Lol

Seriously though i always thought a female had to hav a mehram for hajj n for travels etc, although a family member quiet recently brought this exact same issue up, n she was sayin how she feels its ok for 2 females to travel sumwher without a male, aslong as she has a companion, but she says many stupid things so i dint much attention. But now you brought it up, one has to ponder upon the topic.

I remember hayder said he knew a female who wanted to attend the Nahj-us-salamah aka Manchester Institute of Classical Sciences camp, but couldnt cuz her mehram aka brother wouldnt come along.

mayb sum1 can find a scholorly opinion on the topic.

"razor" wrote:

I remember hayder said he knew a female who wanted to attend the Nahj-us-salamah aka Manchester Institute of Classical Sciences camp, but couldnt cuz her mehram aka brother wouldnt come along.

:?:

two of my sisters mates from london attending the last camp in manchester

this issue was not raised

and if that was the case then the camp organisers would say "only attend with mahrams"

"MuslimSister" wrote:

When I was 11 I wasn’t allowed to go camping for a week with my school….in high school I wasn’t allowed to go to the school trip to Spain…. I’ve always had to tell my friends that I can not go on holiday with them….this used to upset me a LOT. I used to cry for days.

When I was applying to University’s I was told to only pick Uni’s where’d I be able to commute to daily…

Staying away from home is the one thing my dad has always been incredibly strict about. Thankfully, the same rules have been imposed on my brother…so it’s not a sexist thing.

same here. but you're lucky in that your parents applied the same rules to your brother, that never happened in my family.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

And then there’s the issue of Hajj without a Mahram…I was always told that there is no way a woman can perform Hajj/Umrah without a Mahram….but only a convert told me the other day that there’s an exception to this rule…..Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar said: “What is well-known with the Shafi`is is that it is conditional that there be a husband, mahram, or trustworthy faithful women.” And in another saying: “one trustworthy faithful woman is enough.”

in the Shafi'i and Maliki schools of thought a dispensation is given for women to travel in a group for the purpose of Hajj only, whilst the Hanafi and Hanbali schools of thought maintain that it is not permissable for women to travel beyond 48 miles without a mahram.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Also, apparently women can not travel a certain number of days or miles without her mahram…. however, according to some Scholars…the reason why mehrams had to travel with women in the past because robbery, fear of attack etc was rife then…today, various modern means of transportation that usually gather large amounts of people at a time, like ships, airplanes, buses, or cars means that a woman is never alone and is more safe…

from a fatwa:

Quote:

Some contemporary people argue that travelling in modern times have changed from how it was in the time of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). It is incumbent upon us to look at travelling in our time. It is not like how travelling was in the past. It is not filled with the dangers of the waterless deserts, encounters with thieves, highway robbers, etc. Now travelling is by various modes of transportation that usually gather large amounts of people at a time, such as planes, cars, buses, ships, etc…Thus, this provides plenty of confidence and reliability, removing feelings of fear for the woman, because she will not be by herself in any place, and the principle of Islamic Jurisprudence states: “Rulings change due to the changing of times”. Also, some classical scholars have made exceptions with regards to the impermissibility of women travelling in that they may travel in a group, or if there is no fear or risk of Fitna, it would be permissible.

[b]The above understanding is incorrect due to many reasons[/b], and the permissibility of women travelling without a Mahram can not be justified on its basis.

Firstly, the principle of Islamic jurisprudence quoted above is surely an accepted theory among the classical Fuqaha, but one needs to understand the concept behind this principle. The meaning of “laws changing” is not that the laws of Shariah will change in accordance with the time and era, rather, laws that are based on custom and habit (urf) or the rules of Fiqh which are based on juristic opinion (ra’i) or Ijtihad have often been formulated in the light of prevailing custom. It is therefore permissible to depart from them if the custom on which they were founded changes in the course of time. [b]Rulings that are based upon clear texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah can never change.[/b] The scholars of Usul al-Fiqh stipulate that a custom or a practice which is contrary to the text of the Qur’an and Sunnah is an unacceptable custom (urf al-Fasid). (See: Ibn Abidin, Nashr al-Urf fi bina ba’d al-ahkam ala al-urf, P. 115).

[b]Secondly, there is a Difference between legal Wisdoms and legal Reasons. The rulings of Shariah are always based on the reason (illa) and not the wisdom (hikma) behind it.[/b]

An example for this is that the wisdom behind the prohibition of wine and alcohol is that it creates enmity and hatred between people and it hinders one from the remembrance of Allah. The reason, however, is that it is an intoxicating substance. Now, if one was to say that wine will be Halal for me, as I will lock myself up after drinking wine, thus no destruction will be caused. Any sane person will conclude that he is wrong, as wine is Haram whether you cause any destruction and damage to others or not. The reason being, that the cause for the prohibition of wine is that it intoxicates you, regardless of whether the wisdom is present or not. (See: Usul al-Iftaa & other usul books).

This can be understood more clearly with an example from our day to day life. The law states that the driver must stop his car when the lights are red. The wisdom behind this ruling is that it stops and prevents accidents. However, the reason (illa) for this ruling is the lights being red. Now, a driver who is driving in the middle of the night sees that the light is red, but does not see any sign of a car. If the law was based on the wisdom (which is to prevent accidents), then it would be permissible for his to drive through the red light. However, as it is common knowledge, that despite there being no possibility of an accident, he must stop his car otherwise he will be arrested if caught, for the law is based upon the reason and not the wisdom.

The same is with women travelling without a Mahram. The wisdom behind this ruling is surely to save her from the dangers that can be encountered in the journey. However, this is not the legal reason. The reason (illa) is her travelling the distance of three days and three nights, thus whether the journey is safe, in a plane or on foot, it will remain impermissible.

This is very similar to the ruling of shortening the prayers whilst on journey a (qasr). The wisdom behind the ruling is undue hardship (mashaqqa); however, this is not the reason. The reason is the travelling distance of three days and three nights. Therefore, all the Hanafi scholars (classic and contemporary) have declared that it is incumbent upon a traveller to shorten the fardh prayers, even if one was in a perfectly comfortable journey. We don’t see people suggesting that the prayers must not be shortened due to the modern day means of transport!

[b]Thirdly, if one was to look at the exceptions made by some of the classical scholars of the other schools of thought, it would be evident that these exceptions and dispensations are only in relation to the journey of Hajj.[/b] The reason for this is that there has been a lot of emphasis in the Qur’an and Sunnah regarding the obligation of Hajj, thus we have two types of texts that apparently contradict one another. However, this can never be generalized to all types of journeys.

[url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1993&CATE=143]Can Women Travel Without A Mahram? [/url]

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"razor" wrote:

I remember hayder said he knew a female who wanted to attend the Nahj-us-salamah aka Manchester Institute of Classical Sciences camp, but couldnt cuz her mehram aka brother wouldnt come along.

:?:

two of my sisters mates from london attending the last camp in manchester

this issue was not raised

and if that was the case then the camp organisers would say "only attend with mahrams"

did i say that?

cant think who i was allegedly reffering to :?

serioulsy tho

if travelling on ur own or living alone is not allowed for women than why do islamic university's in egypt and madinah allow international students?

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

serioulsy tho

if travelling on ur own or living alone is not allowed for women than why do islamic university's in egypt and madinah allow international students?

travelling is different to living. some scholars say that if a girl travels with her father or another mahram who drops her off for the purpose of study at a girls hostel where there is little fear of Fitnah, then it is permissable.

Salam

Furbal. Those things in Medina and Egypt are more like houses of hypocrites than they are universities.

An educational institution that bows towards Washington rather than Mecca should not expect to be taken seriously.

Omrow

"Omrow" wrote:

Salam

Furbal. Those things in Medina and Egypt are more like houses of hypocrites than they are universities.

An educational institution that bows towards Washington rather than Mecca should not expect to be taken seriously.

Omrow

Cairo, Egypt dnt bow to no washington, Omrizzle, u got sum crazy ideas.

"razor" wrote:

"Omrow" wrote:

Salam

Furbal. Those things in Medina and Egypt are more like houses of hypocrites than they are universities.

An educational institution that bows towards Washington rather than Mecca should not expect to be taken seriously.

Omrow

Cairo, Egypt dnt bow to no washington, Omrizzle, u got sum crazy ideas.

omrow defo has got crazy ideas

I've heard a lot of Bullshit from the women in my society because I'm the first girl in my family that actually lives in Campus. As far as I know Islam doesnt forbid this, some people turn Islam into an extremist religion.
But backbiting and slander is forbidden. People just assume that if a girl is living in a dorm she'll be getting up to wrong stuff.

"Ramz" wrote:

[b]Bullshit[/b][/b]

No more comments.

"Ramz" wrote:

People just assume that if a girl is living in a dorm she'll be getting up to wrong stuff.

such as learning how to become a potty mouth? :twisted:

Salam

"Ramz" wrote:

I've heard a lot of Bullshit from the women.

Welcome to Planet Earth.

Omrow

Aside from the bad language i understand where you're coming from. This double standard stinks. Boys are just as open to sinning than girls are if given the freedom to do so. To suggest boys on campus are little cherubs, and girls are devils is crazy. These ppl are seriously disturbed. Treat your sons and daughters equally. If you wouldn't allow your daughter to live on campus because of certain things they could be exposed to, don't allow your son to live on campus either.

Personally I'd let my child go university only if they were married, might sound radical but hey that's how i feel. I realise there are many decent ppl who go uni and never get mixed up with dating. But unfortunately a greater majority do get involved in this sort of stuff and later regret it. It's not just temptation but they have reached a certain age, and have certain needs they're not gona speak to their parents about. So i think marriage before uni is a good way forward. That way they'd focus on studies and their family. Rather than studies, and social social social.

I was allowed to live away from home, but I got homesick started commuting.

From the age of 12 i started going on camping trips first local. Then up to wales. Longest time away 1 week.

I got to go on a foreign exchange for two weeks.

Been to Islamic residential trips a few times

Before I met my husband I was planning a summer 6 month trip to syria for Arabic studies. I was planning on going with my brother, sharing accomodation with him. My mother was reluctantly agreeing to let us go. Father was erm not happy lol, but mums the word. Unfortunately i met my husband and those plans got cancelled lol.

Insha'Allah planning an alternative trip with husband now.

I got screamed at, sworn at, but i eventually got my way. I've had quite a lot of freedoms compared with my older siblings, maybe coz i've proven myself to my parents. They totally trust me.

"yashmaki" wrote:

Personally I'd let my child go university only if they were married, might sound radical but hey that's how i feel. I realise there are many decent ppl who go uni and never get mixed up with dating. But unfortunately a greater majority do get involved in this sort of stuff and later regret it. It's not just temptation but they have reached a certain age, and have certain needs they're not gona speak to their parents about. .

dating can also take place in school, college, the town centre, local park etc etc

so will u bann ur kids access from all them places?

no i'm thinking secondary school Islamic institution. Primary school normal state school, i doubt a 6 year old is gona wana date.

kids go to parks to play. I've yet to see 18 yr olds going to parks to play on the seesaws.

Course i wouldn't ban them from socialising but there's no harm in imposing rules. Every parent has rules. What's wrong with that?

The fact remains many kids know they can get freedoms at uni they would otherwise not get if they remained at home. So they are more open to doing foolish things they wouldn't otherwise consider. So marriage before uni sounds like a good thing to me. Obviously i wouldn't force my child to marry their choice if they do or not. But i would very much encourage it. It may not be how you deal with your children, but that's what i've got in mind.

I know many ppl who have done this and happily go uni. In fact two of my close mates got married prior to going uni, because their parents encouraged it. Their marriage never interfered with their studies. Their partners totally supported them. One lived with her husband and commuted. The other lived on campus and her husband was at a different uni on campus also. It worked for them, and they often admit it saved them from certain temptations.

by all means impose whatever rules u want on ur kids

marraige before uni may save them from temptations

but what about the temptations in college?

in high school?

in the town centre?

in their part time work place?

tempatations exist everywhere-

esp in our society

its not unsual for girls to get into serious relationships from age 11

so is marraige at age 10 the answer?

btw my 18year old bro spends a LOT of time in the park-and he's no playing on the sea saw he's playing footie/cricket

"yashmaki" wrote:

no i'm thinking secondary school Islamic institution. Primary school normal state school, i doubt a 6 year old is gona wana date.

you'd be surprised. quite sad really. :?

if anything i'd send my kids to a primary islamic school, because thats when they pick things up quickly and whatever they learn stays with them. i'd want my kids to have good role models when they are little as well as when they are older, but having a strong islamic environment during their childhood is especially important IMO.

True, *Dust*.

Its all in the brainwashing that is given at a very young age. Its good to date. You will want to have a gf/bf. Its basuc diogma that is taught at a very primary level.

no its not, wat a load of rubbish.

At 6 guys are just thinking about food and playtime. You may get some brainwashing about bf/gf cr@p but at that age its all yukkie to you.

Rules SHUD DEFINATELY BE IMPOSED. Otherwise you deserve whatever your kids put you through.

My strict rules is no marriage till you're on your feet earning. Until then control yourself. However that dont work for everyone and you can get them married as soon as they get into Uni. Until which imsure they can practice a little self-restraint.

"yashmaki" wrote:

kids go to parks to play. I've yet to see 18 yr olds going to parks to play on the seesaws.

.

Pretty sure I did that last year (I was 17) definately played on the swings last year and possibly this year too.

I'm thinking of making a skipping rope too, but only because I love the rhythmicness of it, and its good cardio.

"Seraphim" wrote:

At 6 guys are just thinking about food and playtime. You may get some brainwashing about bf/gf cr@p but at that age its all yukkie to you.

thats what i thought too, til my mate told me about how she was annoyed by this kid in her year 2 class who used to run after her in the playground asking her out. :? he stopped after she beat him up.

I remember kids discussing a scene in the last emperor (I think) when I was in primary school.

Granted that it was not actually in a lesson, but it goes to show playtime and food is not all kids think about.

They may not understand what is going on around them, but they certainly notice, and are influenced by it.

Heck there are rapists as young as 8 in the world (I was shocked when I saw that report a couple of years ago... it was related to some african region though...).

All these temptations which kids seem to hav can b dealt with, not by sendin em to the all biys or all girls schools. But simply, by makin emsufi's from young age. If a kid grows up with sufi practises, that kid aint ever gna mess up wen he older.

My kids is gonna be Mini-RazorSufis

When i have kids, ill keep postin on the forum, n keep u all informed:D

Ya Digg?

"razor" wrote:

All these temptations which kids seem to hav can b dealt with, not by sendin em to the all biys or all girls schools. But simply, by makin emsufi's from young age. If a kid grows up with sufi practises, that kid aint ever gna mess up wen he older.

My kids is gonna be Mini-RazorSufis

When i have kids, ill keep postin on the forum, n keep u all informed:D

Ya Digg?

you don't 'make' your kids anything, all parents can do is guide their kids and mould them in some sense of the word, but if u want them to be sufis ur gonna have to place them in the company of sufis 24/7 right?

mini sufi?

"*DUST*" wrote:

"razor" wrote:

All these temptations which kids seem to hav can b dealt with, not by sendin em to the all biys or all girls schools. But simply, by makin emsufi's from young age. If a kid grows up with sufi practises, that kid aint ever gna mess up wen he older.

My kids is gonna be Mini-RazorSufis

When i have kids, ill keep postin on the forum, n keep u all informed:D

Ya Digg?

you don't 'make' your kids anything, all parents can do is guide their kids and mould them in some sense of the word, but if u want them to be sufis ur gonna have to place them in the company of sufis 24/7 right?

It was intended as a joke. But now i think about it. It would make sense to "guide" one children to the path of sufism, which is the islamic science which teaches self control, and keeping away from one's desires. N no u dnt needa b with sufi's 24/7 :roll:

"yashmaki" wrote:

mini sufi?

A child, is a mini-human. So ya kids are mini-you's

Ya digg?