[b]Admin can you please move this to the "Building Bridges thread, I just realised it could fit there, sorry[/b]
Following yesterdays poll on should brit papers publish the cartoons of prophet muhammad (saw), just to see what the fuss is about? Polls went crazy. Today they're discussing why don't muslims and non muslims get on, or do they?
1) one guy rang in saying why are those who convert to Christianity in countries like saudi arabia given the death penalty? He said this is his reason for not liking muslims. Well a muslim guy replied this isn't really a part of Islam, misinterpretation of the holy book and other texts. Coz for centuries muslims and non muslims lived together in peace. In prophets 
time Christians and Jews were permitted to maintain their places of worship, and forgo taking part in battles with the muslim armies on the payment of a small tax. ---what do you think?
Discussion is on going...
2) The most ignorant comment yet, even the presenter in not so many words revealed this guys stupidity. He said in his local area muslims were given the right to build a new mosque. how many churches would be given money to refurbish this quickly. He was suggesting government gives muslims special treatment with regards to building mosques and other facilities. Presenter said where is your proof that they didn't have a trouble getting planning permission and funds, do you have any or just assumptions. He admitted they were just assumptions. Isn't this the sort of ignorance that causes trouble?
3) another person said we want to impose our beliefs on them that's why we don't get on. Erm how true is this really. from what i see muslims tend not to get on amongst themselves, and tend to impose their beliefs on each other rather than non muslims. Least that's my experience. I've never gone out my way to impose my beliefs on non muslims,i've made a point not to, coz i wouldn't like it if Christians or sikhs etc hounded me about converting. I tend to get asked questions by non muslims. So how true is this comment?
Something one man said was very offensive, if your muhammad is so precious to you, and you can't take a bit of criticism from cartoons etc go live in another country what rights will they give you there. My comments on this too explicit to post here. But this guys obviously doesn't know what respect means. He commands respect coz he follows no religion, but he doesn't think we deserve any coz we follow a religion.
Anyways i'm still listening....
Yashmaki, why not post this to that thread yourself?
I guess I wouldn't have, but I hope I didn't upset you yesterday. Yuit thought I was paranoid.
Over the last few days I must have come across many hundreds of depictions of Mohammed on the websites reporting this, including some very old Persian paintings that it is clear were respectful images created by Muslims, and a large number of Renaissance paintings and paintings depicting Mohammed unpleasantly. Most striking is that a number of very rude, sometimes racist images have been created during the uproar, which I take as demonstrating that they can't be stopped and death threats are way lower than anything you can do with a bunch of artists' materials. It is another example of fanatics asking everyone else to rally round and boss the kufar. Screw 'em, evil threatening scum. I say this as a beligerently free-thinking artist/writer, who knows which is more important between human life and Muslim sensitivities. If these fanatics knew it too one could respect their sensitivities. And about the cartoons God couldn't care less, I'll venture. The prohibition isn't in the Qu'ran, it is designed to stop people worshipping the prophet, not because he's some fragile flower. I mean really, that would be an utterly lame kind of prophet-to-save-mankind.
That's about it for today.
Shabbat Shalom.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
thank goodness!
Seema, I've got to wait a little longer before I can leave for Manchester, so you get a reply.
What motivates you to make such a vacuous and rude comment in place of decent self-expression? It isn't important, but it isn't funny either and shows you up for another damn jingo.
There was one particular time I made effort in my comments to you to show some moral support, and I get intransigent, unserious rudeness. And ftr not just you, it's happened before.
There is another thread today on why people take things for granted. You take people for granted. It wouldn't be so bad if you had the guts to challenge me over anything in particular or even PM some kind of objection, but your comment above is plain vacuous and rude.
Shabbat Shalom.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
dear 100man i must tell you that i didnt understand most of your post thats why i said that. plus i have commented on your views on the blasphemous cartoons thread.
i've said time and again i just cant understand what you write when i do understand if i disagree rest assured i never run away from an argument
Well maybe you should make a great effort to understand, or ask specifics, rather than leave it at that. It is not running away from an argument, it is making dumbly jingoistic remarks from the sidelines (clearly I have become fond of the word, it is something to look out for in myself too. I was reading about Kipling is why I came to thinking about jingoism). And obviously in this context, that is not how 'thank goodness' translates, is it? Be honest with yourself.
I will be going shortly but I will check in to read your reply. Please don't let it be, 'thank goodness'.
So for the last time today, Shabbat Shalom, which means have a peaceful and joyous weekend.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
No i'm not upset at all.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
out of interest how many of you guys and gals have non muslim neighbours that you speak to all the time. Do you even know their names?
Do you help them out if they're in need?
Throughout my childhood we've always had an Irish family next door to us, and Pakistanis on the other side. And a few more doors up there were English, and one African. We've always got on with our neighbours. There's about a dozen houses only so i know most of them well. They've been to all our family weddings. Mother dishes food out for them in ramadan, Eid, and whenever we have dinner parties they get a portion.
The Irish lot come down for tea once in a while, and we go over too, boy i love that Irish wit lool.
One neighbour has always been a nuisance but we've always made amends after her little quarrels.
I've become like my mother since marriage, it's quite scary lool. I now do the same with my neighbour. He's always doing things for us, and we never ask him to. i.e my husband started preparing the ground to put the lawn down, he didn't finish it coz it's a large garden. Whilst he was at work our neighbour finished the other half for him, in the summer heat! Now that's what you call a darn nice neighbour.
It's good in a way. It helps to break down misconceptions about muslims. Non muslims get to know that we are very much like any other ppl in society except that we choose to follow a religion. Most ppl don't wana know muslims right now, due to fear. The fact is those who make conjectures about us don't even have one muslim friend, their views are taken from the media and their own non muslim friends. So we need to find ways to dispel these myths, just telling them well muslims aren't like that won't convince them at all.
interesting point you make there
and a very good one
jus bieng nice and friendly to your non muslim (and muslim!) neighbours would go a long way to address misconceptions....something we should all do
but....i dont even know who my neighbours....or have been for the past 4 years
Good on you yash!
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Yashmaki the problem with point one is that you were talking about born and bred Christians - which even there I am not always impressed with Islamic treatment of us.
But the question was about converts to Christianity - and you in previous conversations defended sentencing them to death under the Caliphs with the excuse that it is "treason" in an Islamic state.
This as a Christian is naturally bothersome, and you cannot simply dispell it with a momentary analysis, it's a legitimate concern. On top of that Islam supposedly claims there is no compulsion in religion - how is this so if in this utopian Caliphate Christians may not openly evangelize - a key component of the faith, and in such circumstance that a muslim decides to leave Islam is put to death? This is not religious freedom as you all like to congratulate yourselves for - dhimmitude is begrugedly allowing us our existence, and little more.
I'm certainly not positing that Christians have been any better in the past, if not worse - but most of us do not look back to and idealized history of the brutality of the inquisition, the crusades or medieval Europe longingly - like muslims do when they look back at the comparatively religiously intolerant Caliphate.
The fact of the matter is it is there, it is a concern to nonmuslims and that muslims look forward to a time such brutality will be legally sanctioned under shariah again is deeply troubling - I can understand Saudi Arabia is extremist and that is an excuse for the present... but nonmuslims are more concerned about the long term.
if it were an islamic state i couldn't disagree with the caliph coz under islamic law apostates in Islam are given the opportunity to repent or face the death penalty. If i claim to be a muslim and i'm under a fully fledged islamic state how could i deny that law? Whether i like it or not that's how things stand in my faith.
But i'm speaking about saudi arabia and other countries we have no islamic state in the world, so i don't think it's right for them to sentence those who convert from Islam to another faith, to death it's not sanctioned by Islam in this way. They're clearly applying the shariah laws that they like and leaving out that which they don't.
I'd prefer that these ppl weren't killed under any circumstance but God knows best and according to my faith that's the rule. Might sound hypocritical but at least i'm being honest.
Repent or die isn't religious freedom - that's tyranny, and as you said that's "how things stand" in your faith - Islam.
What bothers nonmuslims is the fact that it is present - considered virtuous and correct under Islamic teachings. Whether or not that translates into law is one thing, I highly doubt there are nonmuslims naive enough to believe that there will be another caliphate or that it will encompass the west - but that these are Islamic values and could find outlets elsewhere is deeply troublesome.
In fact I would argue that Saudi Arabian executions of so called "apostates" or violence against Christians in Egypt and much of the rest of the Islamic world is a direct derivative of this Islamic value - although you find exception in that this is all done outside and Islamic State, you surely can see where the mentality comes from - they are taught that under a certain set of circumstances (given - they are ignoring) they are allowed to kill converts from Islam.
As for Hypocrisy:
It might be hypocritical in light of the freedoms you muslims are afforded in the "Christian" West - to expand your religion and actively seek converts; however hypocrisy isn't the issue and isn't really what bothers us.
It's the thing itself - that Christian brothers and sisters, and other non muslims respective to each other and to the rest of us are taken to the block for accepting the religious beliefs we subscribe to, and that muslims are not only "okay" with that, but encourage a value system and a system of government which [u]requires[/u] it.
What i'm trying to impress upon you is that it is a [i]legitimate concern[/i] - this isn't irrational islamphobia. And it shouldn't be dismissed in a sentance or two as though it [i]shouldn't[/i] be a concern for nonmuslims.
Don;t you think you're being a tad bit unfair. the Islamic faith is not the only one which dishes out punishments for Apostasy. There has been a tradition of this from the early Biblical scriptures. We prob need a new thread for this.
I came across this, how true it is i duno but u might wana read it, it's the first post:
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8260
Apart from that i duno what else to say on this subject i guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I don't find it unfair in the slightest.
As for your link the problem is that it's an Islamic perspective of the Christian bible, whereas Christians must read the bible throught the perspective of the life of Christ - in short you have a muslim saying "Yes, in Islam we all know apostates are given the choice of rejecting their new faith or dying - but allow me to interpret other religions' scriptures to tell you what they believe." It merely reinforces my point that nonmuslims have a legitimate concern about Shariah and the treatment of their new brothers and sisters in it, and exegeisizes what my religion says on the subject as a sort of dodge.
The Crusades and the Inquisition - the Inquisition by the way also offered the opportunity to repent - are considered even by the Catholic church to be wrong and perversions of the faith, and were even apologized for. The same practices in the Islamic faith with respect of Apostates is considered doctrinally correct. I can't speak for Judaism - i'll let 100man answer there. So we as nonmuslims look at these flagrant abuses of our faith and are concerned that muslims do not share our concerns for the life and sanctity of our new brothers and sisters - and our religions as a whole.
I can accept agreeing to disagree - but you must be aware that this is a legitimate concern, dismissing it on other pretexts or with historic excuses doesn't diminish the fact that muslims adhere to a faith that allows them to kill Christians or nonmuslim converts within the Islamic legal system - and furthermore that muslims do not see a problem with that.
Our caution and reservations are warranted in this regard.
100man in response to your 1st post:
Is love ever rational, not when you are its fount but when you are love, inside of love, both love and its victim, surrounded, love before and beneath.
We love The Blessed Prophet SAW more than ourselves, and you ask us why we get annoyed, you ask about sensitivities???
Sensitivities man? You do not comprehend our drunkness, what is sensitivity when one is beyond rationale.
We are in love and cartoons or no we hope to always be in this Love.
Our love transcends cartoons, it has left insult, it never heard malice and never hears slight.
It is free, it is. I am love, I am a Muslim. Those who are afected by those cartoons, we are only annoyed because we fear they may miss a share of this love. The love is here for all of us, come drink of it.
Okay I get Omrow's view on it now, but it must be said I find it a little selfish that he would keep of his love to himself when there are those in this world, in this country and continet without.
Love is a think to be greedy for, yes, but there is no monopoly in true love, only the sense that the lover is he he himself the most possessed by love, and indeed the only lover of the beloved.
Be in love, leave sanity's scolding touch behind, let love suffice for your philosophy.
This smile is for the broken hearted, for even in the shadow of love, intensity leaves a man feeling beyond his senses, for what is the broken heart, but the hope of attaining love, and what a pure hope this is! 
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
I'm afraid that's precisely what's happening with the reaction to this Cartoon business. Not terribly sure where 100man was going with his first post; I think anyone can clearly see [i]why[/i] muslims would and should rightly by incensed by these cartoons - however there is a level of reciprocity between anger and reaction which shouldn't be exceeded and i'm afraid that's exactly what's happening when consulates are being burned down, secondary, tertiary and totally unrelated parties are being attacked, and there is a general breakdown in order - this is too far.
Justification certainly exists - but the reaction has far exceeded the justification.
uh burning consulates down isn't an act of love.
I put a comment about that on the Minhaj forums, i'll see if I can do a link.
[/url]
[url=http://www.minhajuk.org/node/121]
Alhamdulillah
this is so sick, the smiley is the link, click it!
[color=cyan]another[/color]:
[url=http://www.minhajuk.org/node/121]
[/url]
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
You'd be surprised how far you can go for love. But I was more responding to 100man's post than yours - I wasn't sure if he was questioning [i]why[/i] muslims take this so seriously, since it seems plain enough (and justified enough) for me, or whether he was questioning the reaction too it which I certainly agree is totally unjustified and out of control.