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Personally brother I couldn’t care less what you or others think of my attitude and approach on this matter, I don’t want to side skip this important issue and focus on my conduct.
Brotherhood? When Jinnah politics enter the Masjid, and any honest debate about what happen in 1971 turn’s into a mob riot- unity isn’t achievable if Bengalis and Pakistani cant even agree on this issue.
I disagree as a new generation has coem along that isn't as affect with the disease of nationalism, i talking about the practicing muslims here. I say 3/4 of the Pakistani i know, don't even know who this Jinnah bloke is. Most pakistani only care about Pakistan when it come to Cricket and that how far their relationship with their country goes IMO. Unity, well you can see aspect of unity amoungst Bengali muslims and Pakistani muslims today in some aspect, so i don't see why it can't be achieved.
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
A partial list of Pakistani military officers who committed Genocide in Bangladesh in 1971
Here is a list of Pakistani military personnel involved in mass killings in occupied Bangladesh from March 25 through December 16, 1971. This partial list was prepared solely from reading the accounts of Brigadier Z.A. Khan who himself was an accomplice in Pakistan's genocidal military. Brigadier Khan's account was published in News From Bangladesh in early March in seven part series. This ex-military officer of Pakistan wrote in vivid details the untold tales of destruction and subjugation of Bengali nation. The surviving ex- military officers from the list should be brought to justice because they have committed crime against humanity. A few of the generals and most young officers of the day are still alive in Pakistan. They should know that while they had all but forgotten their misdeeds the Bengalis remember them very well. Like holocaust survivor who hunted the Nazis till this day, the Bengalis will also do the same to bring these criminals to justice. South Asia will be a better place for our descendents once these criminals are brought to justice - alive or posthumously.
Here is the partial list:
The Generals
1. General Yahya Khan, military president of Pakistan in 1971. He refused to transfer power to Awami League after the general election of
December 10, 1970, when Awami League had won the general election.
2. General Abdul Hamid Khan, Chief of Army Staff (CAS), was one of the architects of Bangladesh Genocide. This general, popularly known as General Hamid (or Hameed) was in Dacca before March 26, 1971, working on a military plan to terrorize Bengalis. He also visited occupied Bangladesh several times to see firsthand the progress of the killing machine.
3. Lt. General Gul Hassan Khan, Chief of General Staff (CGS), Pakistani Army. Contrary to what he might have said, he was one of the principal architects of Bangladesh Genocide. His very presence in troubled land of Chittagong during the early days of Bengali resistance proves beyond any shadow of doubt that he was an active planner of Bangladesh Genocide.
4. Lt. General Tikka Khan, military chief in East Pakistan during March through December 1971. Planner and Chief Executioner of Bangladesh Genocide. He later became Governor of East Pakistan.
5. Lt. General A.A. Niazi, Planner and Executioner of Bangladesh Genocide. He joined the occupation force later. His soldiers burned the villages and killed thousands of Bengalis throughout rural Bangladesh
6. Lt. General Sahibzada Yaqub Khan.
7. Major General Rao Farman, Military Intelligence Chief in East Pakistan during March through December, 1971. Planner and Executioner of Bangladesh Genocide.
8. Major General A. O. Mitha. This general was everywhere in occupied Bangladesh causing destruction and death. This person had practically managed the killing machine of Pakistani army in erstwhile East Pakistan. He joined the army high command in Dacca in early March 1971. He was brought from West Pakistan solely for the death and destruction of Bengalis in East Pakistan.
9. Major General Khadim Hussain Raja. He suspected Brigadier Mazumdar, a Bengali officer, of siding with Bengalis. He came all the way from west Pakistan to arrest Brigadier Mazumdar. He later became chief of Chittagong operation for Pak Army.
10. Major General Akbar, Director General, ISI. He helped Pak Army carry out the Genocide by providing intelligence data. Major General M. Rahim Khan took control 14 Division and replaced Major General Khadim Hussain Raja. His forces were responsible for all the killings done in Mymensing-Dacca-Jessore area. This general was a first rate executioner of Bangla Genocide. He was responsible for atrocities committed along the Dacca-Bhairav Bazaar Railway line.
11. Major General Rahim Khan, Commander of 14 Division, was stationed in Dacca. His officers and soldiers were very much involved in Army-led Bangladesh Genocide. In June 1971, he was transferred from being the Divisional Chief of 14 Division to Martial law Headquarters in Dacca.
The Officers
1. Brigadier Ghulam Jilani Khan, Chief of Staff (COS) of Eastern Command. He was an active person and was a part of planner of Bangladesh Genocide. He was a key person who knew every bit detail of the plan to exterminate Bengalis in the occupied land. During liberation period (in June 1971) he was promoted to the rank of Major General and was given the position of Director General, ISI in West Pakistan.
2. Brigadier Jehanzeb Arbab (later become Lt. General in Pakistan) aided the abduction of Sheikh Mujib.
3. Brigadier Iqbal Shafi, 53rd Brigade assaulted Bengalis in the Feni area. Later he moved to Chittagong area to help crush Bengali resistance.
4. Brigadier Asghar Hussain, 205 Brigade, was active in Chittagong area.
5. Brigadier Hesky Baig was very active in the Chittagong Port Area.
6. Brigadier Sherullah Beg was the Commander of Special Service Group and was stationed in Dacca.
7. Brigadier Ghulam Muhammad took over the command of Special Service Group from Brigadier Sherullah Beg sometime in May 1971.
8. Brigadier N.A. Hussain was the Chief of 27 Brigade in Mymensingh. All killings in that part of occupied land including Madhupur Garh was done by his soldiers.
9. Lt. Colonel Z.A. Khan (later become Brigadier in Pakistan) was very active in Chittagong and Chittagong Hill Tracts Area. He was the
Commander of 3 Commando Battalion in Rangamati under Division 14.
10. Lt. Colonel Yakub Malik, Commanding Officer 53 Field Regiment Artillery, was very active in Comilla area.
11. Lt. Colonel A.H. Fatmi, Commanding Officer of 20 Baluch
12. Lt. Colonel Rathore of Signal Corps was active in Chittagong city area.
13. Lt. Colonel Shakur Jan was very active in Bhairav Bazaar area. He
took active part in landing Pak army to Ashuganj side of Bhairav Bazaar railway bridge.
14. Lt. Colonel S.M. Naeem, Commanding Officer 39 Baluch Command, was very active in Brahamanbaria in late May 1971.
15. Lt. Colonel Jaffar Hussain visited occupied Bangladesh from Rawalpindi in June 1971. He was with Major General Mitha while visiting Dacca. He toured all over occupied land with the Major General.
16. Lt. Colonel Abdur Rehman (later was promoted to Brigadier in Pakistan) was the GSO 1 (Training) at eastern Command in Dhaka.
17. Lt. Colonel Iqbal Nazir Waraich came in June/July 1971 to take charge of 3 Commando Battalion in Rangamati.
18. Lt. Colonel Hanif Malik became the Commander of 2 Battalion in June/July 1971.
19. Colonel S. D. Ahmad. This person worked at the Martial Law Headquarters, Dacca at the time of crisis in March, 26, 1971. He was one of the executioners of Bangladesh genocide. He was involved in planning the abduction of Sheikh Mujib by the Pak military.
20. Colonel Akbar (later become Brigadier in Pakistan) was the GS of Eastern Command in Dacca.
21. Colonel Shigri, Officiating Commandant of the East Bengal Center in Chittagong
22. Major Shujauddin Butt was a part of Baluch Regiment but worked in Martial law Headquarters. At this headquarters dissident Bengalis picked up from all parts of Dacca were brought in. Most Bengalis never did come alive once brought to this place for questioning.
23. Major Bilal, Jangju Company, Pak Army, aided in planning Sheikh Mujib's abduction. Also, he took part in disarming 4 east Bengal Regiment.
24. Major Sultan (later become Lt. Colonel). He was the brigade major in Comilla.
25. Major Salman Ahmad, Ebrahim Company Commander. He was very familiar with the Headquarters of East Pakistan Rifles. He helped Pak Army to raid E.P. Rifles Headquarters.
26. Major Mohammad Iqbal (later become Brigadier in Pakistan), Ghazi Company Commander, was active in the Chittagong area.
27. Major Anees, 20 Baluch and 24 FF, was in Chittagong city.
28. Major Hedayet Ullah Jan, commander of 2 Commando battalion, was very active in Rangamati. He was aiding Lt. Colonel Z.A. Khan in Hill Tracts area to go after East Pakistan Riflemen who sided with Mukti Bahini.
29. Major Salman, 3 Commando Battalion, worked in the Chittagong area as an intelligence gathering agent for Pak Army.
30. Major Tariq Mahmood who later became Brigadier in Pakistan was Officer in Command, Parachute Training School, Dacca. He helped with aerial mobilization of Pak Army all across the occupied Bangladesh.
31. Major Beg, Ordnance Corps, was stationed in Chittagong.
32. Major Nadir was originally with Ordnance Corps but later transferred to the command of Lt. Colonel Z.A. Khan in Chittagong Hill Tracts. He was kept in Dacca by his supervisor, Lt. Col. Khan.
33. Captain Humayun. He also aided in planning Sheikh Mujib's abduction.
34. Captain Saeed, aided in the abduction of Sheikh Mujib.
35. Captain Sajjad Akbar of Hamza Company, stationed in Commilla.
36. Captain Kayani, 20 Baluch line, worked in Saeedpur-Bogra area.
37. Captain Zaidi (later become Brigadier in Pakistan), 2 Company Commando, also raided E.P. Rifles Headquarters.
38. Captain Parvez (later become Lt. Colonel in Pakistan), 2 Commando Battalion, was active in Chittagong area.
39. Captain Zahid (later become Brigadier in Pakistan), the GSO 3 of 53 Brigade in Rangamati.
40. Captain Munir worked with Lt. Colonel Z.A. Khan in Rangamati.
41. Lieutenant Haider of Hamza Company, Commilla.
42. Lt. Commander Akhtar (later became Captain) who secured Patenga Airport from E.P. Rifles
Non-Commissioned Officers:
1. Havaldar Major Khan Wazir. He was a member of a team to abduct Sheikh Mujib. He also physically assaulted Sheikh Mujib.
2. Subedar Ramzan was active in Kaptai Area.
3. Subedar Ramzan aided Captain Munir in Rangamati.
4. Subedar Major Zardad Khan was a part of 2 Commando Battalion stationed in Dacca.
Air Force Officers
1. Squadron Leader Abdul Munim Khan. This officer ran C-130 transport plane all across East Pakistan transporting Pakistani soldiers and food items.
2. Squadron Leader Shuaib Alam was Security in charge of Air Observer Unit, Tejgaon Airport.
Navy Officers
1. Commodore R.A. Mumtaz, stationed at Chittagong was the chief of navy in East Pakistan. Pakistan Navy aided the Army in the field of intelligence gathering, interrogating suspected Bengali freedom fighter.
2. Commander Tariq Kamal Khan (later he became Admiral and Chief of Naval Staff, Pakistan Navy) was stationed at Chittagong. He was the commander of PNS Jehangir, the destroyer. He helped the military with communication gears and firing at E.P. Rifle headquarters to crush Bengali resistance in Chittagong area.
3. Lt. Commander Shamoon Alam Khan was also working for ISI. He also helped Pak Army to recapture Rangamati.
Bangladesh fought and won it's Jihad against Pakistan
Right... but where has Shazan said that he thinks Bengalis and Pakistanis today and especially outside pakistan and bangladesh should allow this to damage their relationship?
He is saying that in many respects it presently IS damaged because of what happened and because of Pakistanis back home and abroad taking so much pride in their country when this has happened and Pakistan won't admit it.
I think he summed that sentiment up beautifully when he said "imagine how a bengali feels when he watches a pakistani military parade."
It seems like there are bengalis who you are talking about that either don't know or don't care about 1971, and don't think about it.
Unfortunately that obviously isn't so for Bangladeshis in Bangladesh - and obviously not true of Bengalis outside Bangladesh, like Shazan, for whom the issue is still very much alive.
For them just "letting go" isn't an alternative and those military parades are salt on open wounds.
See that's what I am calling "blame the victim"
I've seen it with Bosnia and the Holocaust as well - especially when people point out that many concentration camp guards were recruited Jews.
It doesn't mean there wasn't a genocide planned and executed by one ethnicity or country against another. Which is what happened here. We have a plan "Operation Searchlight" to break and basically anihilate the Bengalis which was executed by West Pakistani leadership so successfully at LEAST one million people were dead in under 9 months.
It doesn't even remotely detract from the fact that this was a planned, calculated carried out by one ethnicity against another. Whether there were other atrocities (I see there was a persecution of Hindus by Bengalis) they should be dealt with seperately, or as attached appraisals of the civil war.
But the focus is rightly on this operation searchlight and the millions who died in its wake.
Exactly .... Just because a few “ethnic Bengalis” decided to enlist and allied themselves with East Pakistan Army and authorities, because there is no other work, but many joined the Pakistani Army because it’s a way to legalise what they were already doing: wielding a gun and ransacking Bangladeshi resources.
Salaam Sister
You should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you bring up a topic which you know will only fuel anger and division amongst the bengali and pakistani MUSLIMS of this country? What did you think brining the issue up on here would achieve? You think that by making it an issue of awareness it will help the cause of bringing the generals in Pakistani Army accountable for their sins. I am not denying that such a massacre may have taken place. It most definitely may have. The Pakistani army is controlled by its intelligence the ISI. And most everyday Muslims may not be aware of this but the ISI just like the Intelligence Service of most Muslim Countries takes its orders from the CIA. At the moment there are not many if any Muslim countries including Bangladesh whose Intelligence is not taking orders from the pentagon, although some say Iran may be one which doesn't at this moment in time. The problem is that I will not be able to provide you any evidence of such an allegation as it is very difficult to infiltrate such agencies in order to provide material proof for such information. However the allegation is by no doubt based on truth as it can be seen from the History of countries like Pakistan in relation to assassinations and Military Coups. Obviously post 9/11 this allegation is even more evident from the presence of American troops on Pakistani/Afghani soil and the hunt for Al Qaida terrorists in areas of North West Pakistan.
Now to get to my actual point - Pakistan is a country consisting of millions of activist Muslims and has its people (Punjabis, kashmiris and patans) all over the world and such people have given the Muslim world Great Scholars, movements and literature. Pakistan was created due to the massacres and segregation from Politics that Islam and Muslims were put under at the time of the British Empire in India by The Brits and particularly by Hindus who loved the Brits and their way of life and saw them as a superior Aryan race related to them in some way - such people today refered to as 'coconuts' - After Pakistan was made the issue of Kashmir is still unresolved and the Indian Army is raping our Sisters and Mothers dat after day in Kashmir and slaughtering our Brothers day after day. There have been genocides of Muslims and mass immigration of Hindus in areas of kashmir on order to try and falsify the argument of the province being one of a Majority Muslims.
And Pakistan is the only country that at least has supported the Resistance and even post 9/11 when it was put under the target of destruction by American led Allied forces Pakistan has still supported the Kashmiri struggle for Freedom. Pakistan was meant to be an example of Islamic Glory. Pakistan is supposed to reflect how an Islamic Country can be Rich and Powerful in Technological advancement as well as well as living in a Beautiful Peaceful Society under Islamic Revolution of the System - so that other Nations could adopt the same notion because only then can we get together as a united Ummah and be viewed with respect and fear as an entity and not just a mere joke.
Yes Pakistan has failed due to the corrupt leaders it has had and the continued interference in its policies by outside forces. But the Muslims in and outside of Pakistan still havent given up on the Dream because it is one which we all know is achievable and due to its geographical location it is one which is essential to the idea of a United and Stron Ummah.
Its not as if there aren't enough conspiracies against Pakistan on the lines of divide and conquer by CIA and Mossad as it is - what with the ongoing insurgency in Baluchistan and the political movements in Sindh, N.W.F.P and even Gilgit that you have to go and bring up another topic to demoralize and depress the Pakistani Muslims and Divide the great Unity that Bengalis and Muslims share in some areas and are able to share in others. For one thing I live very near Stratford and infact spend most of my time in Stratford, Mile End and Bethnal Green and haven’t witnessed any animosity except for a joke or 2 shared between me and my Bengali Mates. I'm passionate about the success of Pakistan as a nation for the sake of Our Ummah - does that make me a nationalist? I believe all Muslims should have a sense of Passion and care for their Countries of origin so that they could resolve the problems in those countries and help bring them to their national prestige and then we can have a coalition of Great Islamic Countries which actually means something like the European Union. And this obviously includes Bangladesh even though it has to go through India to be geographically linked to the rest of the Muslim world but still is a very important country for many reasons and one of them is that it has great representation in countries like the UK and bengali Muslims are essential for the defence and success of Islam and muslims living in the West. I would tell you as a Bengali to love Bangladesh with Passion and care like you already probably do but not with the fuel of the negative reminiscence of a gross massacre that the Pakistani Army carried out on your people but with a vision of a Great Future for your Country.
Pakistanis are trying to make peace and i mean real genuine peace with the Indians (Im speaking of the ones back home) because it is essential for a prosperous future for both people especially the Pakistani Muslims - even though millions of our relatives have been killed by the Indians in massacres after massacres starting from over 200 years ago and going through the partition to this day in and outside Indian borders.
At the end of the day Pakistan and Bangladesh are brothers and brothers do have fights which are sometimes gruesome and deadly but both of these countries have avoided such fights for over 35 years and neither have the people of these 2 countries looked forward to an such dispute between the two.
Pakistani Muslims need Bengali Muslims and Bengali Muslims should feel the same way especially because we are the majority of the Ummah in this Country and only together can we move forward in strength in the UK and also strengthen the Economy and wellbeing of our Countries of Origin by never forgetting where our Parents came from as we owe a duty to those of our people that are suffering back home.
But the topic which you have brought up is inappropriate for such an approach i talk of as its title in itself is divisive and you living in East London shouldn't be doing such things when you know both our communities live in this part of London in Peace and Unity and if there are situations where they haven’t or don't then they should and will Insha'Allah.
As for the trial of generals - even if it was to happen from your demands alongside Allah knows how many others you have got with you on this issue - it wouldn't do any good to the already depresses and frustrated Muslims in Pakistan who don't know what the future of this country might be. Pakistan is best United and Strong as A Muslim Country Insh'Allah and not divided which is the attempt of CIA, Mossad and the Indian Intelligence. All Muslim countries hold the possibility of serving the Ummah in strong way like the U.S.A and the E.U are serving the West. I am not Iraqi and have no blood link with the country as far as I know but Being a Muslim I didn't and wouldn't want to see it divided because it would make it even weaker and just more problematic for the Middle East. The Idea of bringing back such bad memories of the 1971 war is a dangerous and divisive one which will only feed on negative feelings between the 2 countries and its people. We should focus on Unity and a Better Future which is in our reach Insh'Allah.
May Allah grant us the patience to bear such terrible incidents of massacre that have occurred and do occur in Muslim lands at the hand of other co called 'muslims' - Allah will punish those who have done wrong. And when Pakistan is standing firm again as a Strong Nation then we will be able to have such trials with the ability to bear the aftermath . At the moment as a Nation post9/11 it is not strong enough for it and neither is it beneficial in any sense to Us Pakistani and Bengali Muslims living in the UK in relation to our Unity – which Is our strength.
Shazan is a guy.
my bad, brother then
Ashamed? You mean one of the worst cases of genocide in the 20th century and also complete subjugation prior to 1971. Bengalis were the majority ehtnic group in Pakistan, but we had little rights and our culture and language were continually attacked. Many draw parallels to Apartheid SA. So much for Islamic Unity. Learn your history before pumping out this bile. Bengali nationalism was a natural response to Punjabi hegemony.
Sure! Wanting justice for genocide where somewhere between 1-3 million people died is surely too much. The mass rapes of hundreds of thousands of women are another thing. That's the problem with Muslims today, quick to cry out for justice but not willing to sort our own problems.
How did you concluded this raising this issue which simply cannot be forgotten, will equate to causing strife amongst us? By keeping silent and doing nothing, will unit us?
Abu Hurairah (ra) relates that the Holy Prophet
said,
[b]"Do not be envious of other Muslims. Do not overbid at auctions in business against another Muslim. Do not have malice against a Muslim. Do not go against a Muslim and forsake him. Do not make another offer during his pending transaction. O’ servants of Allah! Be like brothers with each other. A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. Do not hurt him or look down upon him or bring shame on him. Piety is a matter of heart. It is enough evil for a person to look down upon his Muslim brother. The blood property and honour of a Muslim is inviolable to a Muslim." (Muslim)[/b]
Pakistan owes more, members of the military responsible for 1971 genocide are still alive and well. They need to be brought to justice. About the bengali racism, considering history its understandable (but not right). What’s undeniable is that Pakistanis are probably the worst racists among Muslims. They carry on continuing the same mindset, which led to the racist oppression and genocide of Bengalis. I have witnessed it many times.
You seek justice wherever possible.
It goes both ways. Bangladeshi animosity towards Pakistanis is understandable, Pakistani racism towards Bengalis is not. You don't know your history. Research the roots of Bengali discord.
For more info on Pakistani genocide of Bengalis - http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
I find it difficult to subscribe to political Islam when events like these are brushed under the rug, then self righteous preach unity and yet have scorn in their eyes of us!
It is true that Pakistanis talk of the 'Ummah' far more than Bengalis. But it did not stop their armies from being encouraged to rape and murder people in 1971
Nothing to be ashamed of. (apart from maybe approach...)
I had a reply for some point which i lost when i had to do something...
RE: dave's point of blaming the victim:
I am not blaming the victim.
my prior assumption on this matter was that all of bangladesh wanted to separate. West pakistan sent over troops to quell the separatists. These troops committed massive attrocities.
And this is what Shazan is implying aswell.
Now i am of the understanding that there were two separate movements in bangladesh itself. One separatist, and another loyalist.
The loyalists, with the help/orders of the armed forces committed massive crimes. Now these separatisits are also Bangladeshi. Those troops are now bangladeshi.
Only a layer right at the top was from west pakistan. and those are probably dead, considering how old someone would likely be to get to positionas of authority. The youngest would be around 75-80 y/o atm.
90% of the troops would have also been from bangladeshi ethnicities.
The 'Pakistani fundamentalist parties' were also local. East Pakistani, not west Pakistani.
Now saying that the west Pakistan should be held to account is a valid point, but there is alot that bangladesh can do itself.
Shazan has judged the entire Pakistan people as guilty, implied racism to be at work on the admin level here, and implies nothing could be done as it was done by pakistan.
at that point both sides were pakistan. There was no bangladesh. Now the majority of both sides are bangladeshi. or dead. or both.
and Shazan, why did the move to justice start in 1992? I understand that is when it gained pace, but why then? was it politically motivated? did someone deny it, orwas it something else?
I did ignore this debate, but if he wants a discussion, there are multiple arguments to every side. I may at places play the devils advicate (as below), but when you go on about a topic, there will be different views. My view got changed during this discussion.
And shazan what do you say if someone asks wether the separatists were commiting treason? what about the qur'an ahadith on unity, holding onto one rope?
Me, any other Pakistani/bangali do not need to do anything. Its the job of the Bangali gov to provide the evidence, produce arrest warrants for the suspects, and then give them a fair trial.
(and for that guy that was tried on independence day... not exactly the moment for a fair trial is it?)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Frankly, it’s shameful that Pakistani people don’t know anything about the genocide. It should be taught in schools and in religious institutes as well. The perfect example of the dangers of racism and nationalism are seen in the events of 1971, so the fact that Islamic teachers in Pakistan do not discuss the subject at all is very disturbing.
Currently there are thousands of ex soldiers, who committed shocking crimes, still at large, free to roam the streets of Pakistan, without a stain of their character, some probably holding positions of authority, respected by all and treated as heroes. The fact that such people are considered family men, honourable men, is exactly what causes deep pain for the victims, and if people can’t grasp that then they are either idiots or blind nationalists.
The “lets move on, its nothing to do with me, I only found out yesterday” arguments are stupid. It is not possible until there is justice for the victims. Until then the “lets move on” position sounds very much like “brush it under the carpet” or “whitewash”.
i've already mentioned (to my detriment ) i knew little about the genocide. I knew vaguely of it, but not enough. But how many other Bengalis are out there who know nothing not even vaguely? It's down to parents to tell their kids isn't it? It's not like English schools have it high on their agenda in history classes.
So how can we expect Pakistanis to be aware of, when a lot of Bengali kids aren't?
Why is the I found out yesterday agrument stupid for, can people help the fact they don't know, what do you want people to do, apologies for the action of their forefathers, where should they exactly stop because since the beggining of time man has been commiting such acts. Plus where politic are concern there alot to learn about any one event, i only hear from one side at the mo. Also what wrong with saying that the past shouldn't become a issue for today Bangali and pakistani wrong for, if that consider whitewash i guilty of it.
Also it one thing talking about justice and ridiculing people about the lack of justice , but it all about action IMO, so all the people complain of injustice, why don't you simply tell people what they doing to bring about justice and show people what they should be doing. Because as Admin mention, movement need to begin at the top, enquiry need to be done and a international movement set up, which the Bangaldesh government should be setting up.
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
The things is that we are in the uk.
I do not think we have any members on here who went through the pakistani education system.
So its a moot point for us if it is taught or not in pakistan. Obviously it should.
(and I expected my post above to be shelled from many sides...)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Yashmaki, Yuit and Admin,
Hi, I’ve read your comments and I think you may have misunderstood me, which is probably my fault. Sorry. About the “lets move on” argument, I called it stupid simply because it fails to understand the point of view of the victims who lost everything. I had that in mind in my 2nd paragraph ^^^. If you read it again I think that’s clear.
[b][u]It was not meant as an attack on the Pakistani people in general, and especially not at anyone on the Revival. I thought that was obvious, but, if not, then I apologise.[/u][/b]
I do not want you to take the comments personally, as if anger at the lack of justice is blamed on people who had no idea it ever happened. It is not and it never has been. The blame lies with the people who did it, those who tell lies about it, or cover it up. These types of people exist everywhere in the world so the shame I mentioned above lies with, in the case of 1971, the Pakistani government/military and other elites who perpetrated the crimes or hushed them up.
Every evil deed can be covered up if few people know or care about it. Not always on the same scale but it happens. Are we not critical of people who distort history and use propaganda to lie to their people? That’s called nationalism, something totally Un-Islamic. All countries cover up embarrassing episodes, consider Palestine/Israel for example. Surly we are justified in criticising Fox news, George Bush and his puppet masters, for misleading people and encouraging “patriotism”?
So why not the same outrage at Pakistan’s cover up? Or Bosnia’s own cover-up, for that matter. One thing written out of Bosnian history is that thousands of Serbs fought for the Bosnian Government army, side by side with their Muslim [i]“droogs”, [/i] only to be driven out after the war ended. Its easy to see how the truth is not always what it seems or what we want it to be.
So, in the case of 1971, that’s precisely why is should be taught in schools and universities over there. Thank God that the bond of Islam is far greater than the stupid ties of nationalism or racism. This is proved by the way the war over there has not led to a permanent hatred.
However, innocent victims continue to suffer when criminals are free to stride the streets as family men. I firmly believe that if the truth about 1971 was revealed to the Pakistani people, then they would be happy to track down the guilty and bring them to justice.
Islamic scholars should lead the way in bringing this goal into fruition. They have the authority and respect of all Muslims and would certainly be listened to. No government should cover things up.
Well written.
However I think you misunderstoodmy point.
It should be taught.
However weshould not be the ones driving for justice. We should support it, but the driving seat should be occupied by the bangladeshi government.
They should demand justice through the national and international legal process.
Where necessary use interpol to track down and question those who are guilty of crimes.
and from what I know, no-one on these forums was educated in pakistan, so even if it was taught there (I doubt it is...), we would still be ignorant.
I would think the majority of the soldiers are in or around bangladesh, and the gov should take legal proceedings against who it has evidence. The ringleaders were most probably from western Pakistan. considering this happened 35 years ago, and the minimum age required for leadership (which i would assume to be around 40 considering this is a military issue...), he people are either dead, or near dead. They should still be tried if alive. But here is where the bangladeshi government should send out international arrest warrants.
(A list of the top brass in the pakistan army is not evidence. There needs to be evidence they were involved in operation searchlight in some manner.)
There is a confusion here about what happened, as anyone who was a separatists is now called a bangladeshi, and anyone who was a loyalist a Pakuistani, but at that time both were pakistani, and now the majority of both are bangladeshi, or residing in bngladesh, or have migrated abroad.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
every genocide and atrcocity/oppression etc in history against any culture/religion/nationality etc shud be taught
why single one out and be accused of ignorance and stupidity in the future? :roll:
too bad the history syllabus is limited
Admin, I wasn’t referring to anyone in Britain. Yes the Bangladeshi government should lead but there is also the effect on Pakistan as a nation to consider as well.
The war didn’t come out of nowhere, the mistreatment of Bengalis went on for 2 decades after India was partitioned and mutilated.
The “soldiers” who carried out this genocide fought for (West) Pakistan..
They received orders from (West) Pakistan.
When defeated, it was Pakistan that covered it up.
Thus, it is up to the elites, teachers, historians, religious people etc in Pakistan to admit the truth and tell the people what happened.
Its more the effect on the population, who have the truth hidden from them, that is of most concern. What is the effect on Pakistani society of this lack of knowledge?
This cover up, and subsequent reluctance to talk about it, has surely contributed to Pakistanis being among the most nationalistic of all the Muslim peoples, probably only the being Turks more nationalistic.
What can you do in Britain? Perhaps advise people that flying the national flag from the window of a hired Mercedes on Eid day is not a good idea.
I was talking to a Chechnyan named "Qaz" last night on the MPACUK Chatroom - really interesting guy. But he was telling me that "the Mountains of Allah" Chechnya is largely forgotten by British muslims and that he was concerned that "white muslims" were often forgotten.
He gave me an example, when the earthquake hit Bam and Iran a couple years ago there was general sadness among the muslim community, but absolutely nothing like the Kashmir earthquake. He basically cited the reason for this as nationalism amongst south east asian muslims especially pakistanis.
This idea of nationalism specifically in the Pakistani community seems to be a reoccuring them with non-Pakistani muslims I talk to.
In fairness he praised the activities of groups like MPAC and other islamic political organizations for mobilizing support for Palestinians.
Admin you’ve joined the status of your fellow countrymen!
Alhamdulilah, I wont stoop to the level of the Indian occupation army. who just completely deny any wrong whatsoever in Kashmir, ironic!
Two nation’s theory have constantly been debunked.
What happen in 1971 wasn’t a[b] civil war [/b]between Bangladeshis against Bangladeshis- this is nonsense; show me the illiterate sources you've been reading. And how they have deduced the figure for 90% of the soldiers in East Bengal whom participated in this grotesque act's of violence are Bangladeshi loyalists?
Since Bangladesh prior to its independence was still apart of Pakistan (west) then call it a Pakistani civil war, this is entirely a matter of political technicality. Doesn’t change what happened in Bangladesh.
There were 90,000 Pakistani troops in BD and they killed many people and raped many women. Despite all this many Pakistanis (primarily Punjabis) think that they are the main victims of 1971 and that we are gaddars and sided with Hindus and they are oblivious to the fact that their army may have murdered anything from 300,000 to a million at most people. (50,000 are the Pakistani propaganda figure).
I’ve produced a partial list of Pakistani war criminals, but your ignorance is still blinding you from the truth. Show me you’re evidence to support you grandiose assertions.
[b]An Army Insider's Honest Expose of Atrocities in East Pakistan Debacle:[/b]
http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2005-10-26&hidType=OPT&hidRec...
Short history lesson:
[b]This is the mindset of the planners and executioners of Bangladesh genocide. This is the mindset of Yahya Khan, Tikka Khan, Vladimir Putin, Golam Azam, Ayatollah, Ashrafuzzaman and Ratko Mladic -------. This why we have Auswitcz, Kosovo, Bosnia, Palestine, and East Timor. Because of nationalism which equates to racism- [/b]
Why have you debunked or not discussed economic exploration of Bangladesh?
Due to Shimla agreement, Pakistani Pow or war criminals 200 soldiers who were sought for war crimes by Bengalis where given amnesty accordance to the agreement which would recognise Bangladesh, besides the mock trails of war criminals held by Jahanara Imam no real attempts has been made by Pakistan to accept crimes committed by it’s soldiers in Bangladesh. Failure on Bangladesh behalf because governments have been either pro-Pakistani or pro-Indian.
Pakistani is still a proud nation can still hasn’t come to terms with it’s defeat in India and in Bangladesh- isn’t a surprise a nation still reeling in humiliation could ever trial national heroes but war criminals as seen by the majority (Bengali’s).
I don’t accept for a second that age and death has caught of with these savages, Musharraf fought against India during 1971 wars, like many Pakistani war veterans they hold position of power within it’s Military totalitarianism government. That answers your question Admin why Pakistani is reluctant to prosecute anyone, by doing it will have to accept Biharis refugee’s and pay reparation.
Bangladesh claims that Pakistan still holds at least $4.5bn (£3.2bn) of its assets, including money in Pakistani bank accounts, which were frozen after the war. Dhaka wants Islamabad to begin to pay reparations.
In addition, Dhaka wants to send back 237,000 Pakistanis, known as Biharis, who claim Pakistani citizenship and live in refugee camps in Bangladesh. Most still speak Urdu, rather than Bengali. Islamabad, however, has always been reluctant to allow them to return to Pakistan.
There is not limitation to the banditry behaviour.
The problem with Pakistan is and has been the military rule for most part where the press is highly censored, and the masses are fed dictatorial propaganda, thus producing a whole generation of totally brainwashed zombies. Refer to back to latifah post-Mashallah for clarifying with such eloquence the great need for Pakistan to educated its population. I wonder how many UK born Pakistani will be educating their children!
I’ve disused this topic in another forum mainly with Muslim in America, and small Shia community in Canada- I’ve managed to raise awareness for the famine in Niger which was ignored by some elements within the UK Muslim population- this puts meaning into how Jinnah Politics have ruled many UK Masjid, who don’t serve the Ummah but their people needs first.
You're wrong, you’re making sweeping generalisations, my nephew is 10 and he is fully aware of what happened to his aunty and uncles in Bangladesh. Ignorance is not bliss.
Join a Pakistani Military forum and put your theory to the test!
Do you not think that I’m also frustrated and disillusion with this Ummah and it’s corrupt leaders? I many not have a blood bond to Palestine or Kashmir, I’m not from Jerusalem, Nablus or Gaza. My ancestry is from Calcutta. Do you know what is happening to Muslims in Gujarat and parts in Uttar Pradesh and Orissa?
Do you know what is happening in Chechnya?
[b]Quran and teach it. ... If we cannot change ourselves, how can we expect the conditions in the world to change?[/b]
Brother you're speaking from the experiences in your life and those you know. Clearly you have been directly effected by the genocide so i'd expect your cousin to know about it.
However from my experience, all the bengalis i know, don't seem to know much about it. All they say is there was a war between Bangladesh and Pakistan and not much else.
All the Bengali kids I knew at school, all those I know today know very little about it.
I never said ignorance was bliss, can't i say anything without being attacked aggressively?
Brother please don't take any offence, you're welcome to criticise me and call me ignorant etc but take this as a kind piece of advice. If you truly want others to know about the genocide, especially Bengali youth and Pakistanis then your approach needs to alter. Perhaps you're unware you are being really aggressive, to the point of being rude. Much of that is understandably due to the lack of injustice you feel, especially since the tragedy that occured with your aunt. I sympathise with it even though my feelings can't change a thing. I want to learn more about the genocide but constantly attacking me for any which way i make a point, isn't going to help raise the awareness is it.
Kindly recommend me some literature on the subject i'd be grateful.
Jazak'Allah
Firstly, I am not attacking you, I’ve already stated I have no interest to hide behind a keyboard and spout abuse if one doesn’t agree with me- secondly your personal experience growing up is irrelevant for this discussion. And what happen to my aunt isn’t an atoms worth of what really happen to the masses.
As for my behavior and lack of manners – I’ll reply to that in other thread!
Thirdly, you’ve highlighted a point which I like to hammer into people head, because the genocide hasn’t effected you directly or anyone else in this forum for that matter, it has become a Bengali issue, sidelining the fact a country that claims to be Islamic committed mass annihilation on an industrial scale against it’s “own” brothers and sister is a issue which cannot be ignored- I’m not inciting we fight amongst ourselves- but we arm ourselves with knowledge and brake down barriers in people mind and why they feel animosity towards each other, particularly the Punjabis and Bengali. To understand suffering and hostiles towards each other we have to know the root of the problem.
This point of this issue not affecting you directly- this kind of tone has made Muslims selfish and more interested in self preservation - seems like “we” only care when injustices happens directly to us- lets us forgot what is happening to Muslims in Niger or to white Chechens, because none of their hardships are effecting us personally!
I will hate for myself to become like this- this is where nationalism creeps in and reflects all it’s ugliness in Muslim society. That is the fundamental point Me, and if I can say latifah have been trying to make.
As for the sources I will compile a list of website which you can read in your free time, but if you browse this thread all the material is here.
Britain?
you do relaise what you imply in your posts?
The reason the reaction to the kashmir earthquake was diferent was because it involved family.
Alot of pakistani's in the uk originate from Kashmir. even more originate just close to there.
I agree the Bam earthquakes were bad. But worse IMO were the two turkish ones a few years ago.
The genocide is a bangadeshi issue, not because we were not linked, but because that is where is occurred. That is where the lead for justice should be.
As an outsider i can guess at what happened, but those who were there will knowmore, and thus better equipped to lead.
And it was a civil war between PAKISTANIS AND PAKISTANIS. Now the majority of both sides are bangladeshi.
You admitted that the bihari's were loyalists. where were they located? there were also other loyalists. Where were they located?
I am sure that if Pakistan sent over say, 90,000 soldiers, and then brought them back, there would be records? and who would guard the other borders if that did happen?
The soldiers were predominantly local. The parties were predomininalty local. The 'bangladeshi' soldiers. Were they not pakistani before the existence of Bangladesh?
The bloodshed was masterminded at the higher levels. though even here there was a local element.
The problem with your sources is that It describes the conflict in a way in which it never occurred. there were no bangladeshi's. Only pakistani's. Both sides. One predominantly the oppressor, the other predominantly opressed.
However your sources describe the oppressed as bangladeshi's, and the oppressors as pakistani. Bioth were from the same place, but held diferent views.
Think before you write. You are doing a disservice to those who died. You are blackening their names.
And for someone who probably knows the most from us lot, you do come across as rather ignorant.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The genocide was carried out by the forces of West Pakistan, so I think viewing it is as a Bengali civil war is misleading. The government in the West must take the blame for firstly canceling an election when the East established power, and then unleashing a wave of savagery on those who wished freedom from Western domination during the period of martial law.
This article lists a number of allegations against the (west) Pakistani military from US diplomats on the ground at the time, and how they helped them cover it up. The government had some high ranking friends in important places.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/
Aside from bringing the culprits to justice there is the other issue of the effect on those kept in the dark. It breeds nationalism in people. If people are not used to hearing their country critised they become defensive.
Tried to stay away from this topic.. as I do often get carried away.
But just wanna come in with a small point. The argument that It was a local problem.. 'bangladeshi's' killing 'bangladeshi's' is wrong.
The issue was racial,- those who spoke Urdu 'Pakistani's' (really shudn't generalise, and don't mean to cause offence).. thought they we're superior to those who spoke Bengali.
I'm just quoting from stories told to me by people who experienced it first hand. Unfortuantly, I don't have the energy to find sources on the net tonight.
I say look up 21st February. Its International Mother Language Day..
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
I'm actually somewhat surprised you've never mentioned this before. Before Shazan you were the most outspoken Bengali on the forum but I don't recall any particular time you said anything about the '71 genocide.
Is there a particular reason for this and does it have anything to do with the general discussion on Islamic unity going on thusfar?
To be perfectly honest,.. Shazan's made most of the points I wud have made.
I did post sumthing a while back but that was on another thread.
In terms of Islamic Unity.. hmm. Yeh maybe.
Shazan's made a valid point that, those responsible for these acts of Genocide should be punished. I Agree with him 100%.
I also agree with observations of others on here who say that there exists strong Brotherhood amongst Pakistani's and Bangladeshi's despite our tragic history. This is very evident here in the UK, especially in Tablighi Jamaat where its perfectly normal for a Bangladeshi to eat of the same plate as a Pakistani.
On both sides, there are still racists, [b]but they're a dying breed..[/b] I've had arguments with Bengali's who say things like 'Never Trust a Pakistani', I have also heard of Pakistani's still treating Bengali's as inferior to them by mocking the Language.
I think we've come a very long way in a in a short space of time. Although I expect Bangladeshi's and Pakistani's to acknowledge what happened, I wouldn't expect apologies from those who had nothing to do with it.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
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