where are they breathing?

Are they in Pakistan, or are they in bangladesh?

I may sound ignorant, but that is because my past education on this subject was:

'In the breakup of east pakistan the army did many unsavoury things. They looted, plundered, raped and murdered. Any questions?' 'No not really.'

After that there was nothing to discuss. We agreed.

But when you ask for justice, you have to ask more questions, and know more about the topic.

So breaking up pakistan was not destabilising it?

And bangladesh should hold a public enquiry into this.

Get the facts. If anyone is being acused by hearsay, either ge evidence, or vindicate them.... and then go all out for justice.

"Admin" wrote:

If the Bihari's are now bangladeshi's, the responsibility of bringing them to justice is with Bangladesh... as they are not from the curent pakistan...

and why are you bitter at them being left in limbo by the current Pakistan by not taking them into west pakistan?

Retribution for their treachery has already happen,

Quote from: Gendercide.org

Quote:

In a brutal bloodletting following the expulsion of the Pakistani army, perhaps 150,000 people were murdered by the vengeful victors. (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 334.) The trend is far too common in such post-genocidal circumstances

Many Biharis died because Pakistan didn’t give them asylum.

Lets start from the beginning -

After 1971 war the Biharis (in former East Pak) were offered BD citizenship (and on several other occasions later I believe) by the new government, many accepted (these Biharis have since integrated into BD society) but many also declined, deciding to remain Pakistani citizens (these are the Biharis being discussed - they ARE Pakistani citizens under International law and every Pakistani administration has admitted this).

These Biharis cannot be integrated into Bangladeshi society as they do NOT WANT be a part of Bangladesh, instead they want to return to Pakistan (and rightly so, and they have been campaigning since). Pakistan unfortunately (adding another slap on the face of the 2nation theory) has consistently stumbled on their repatriation (Pakistan's cause of concern I believe, being ethnic stability in Karachi

"Augustus" wrote:

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

his death means nothing, while the other 200 war criminals are breathing.

Actually those were just the top 200... the website didn't go so far as to name others, I suspect partly because there's never been a formal inquiry or trial on the matter.

My guess is the whole Pakistani Military could be indicted on war crimes!!!

My guess that a career rarely lasts 35 years.

and even in that time, most of the Pakistan military would have been in Kashmir...

"Admin" wrote:

But when you ask for justice, you have to ask more questions, and know more about the topic.

So breaking up pakistan was not destabilising it?

And bangladesh should hold a public enquiry into this.

Enquiry into what matter?

Bangladesh wanted independence from west Pakistani. A major cause of resentment among the Bengalis was economic exploitation

http://ghatok-dalal.tripod.com/

The following hadiths apply to the Pakistani criminals and their local collaborators:

"Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witness to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God best protect both. Do not allow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do."(Quran 4:135)

If anyone walks with an oppressor to strengthen, knowing that he is an oppressor, he has gone forth from Islam. (Baihaqi).
All things of a Muslim are sacred and to be honoured by other Muslims. His life, property and honour must be respected. (Muslim)

Abu Bakr Siddique (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "A Muslim who harms another Muslim and deceives him, is accursed." (Tirmidhi)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once said to his companions: "Do you know who will go first on the Day of Resurrection to the shade of God? (It will be) those who when given what is right accept it, when asked for something give freely and who judge in favor of others as they do for themselves." (Tirmidhi)

'Enquiry into what matter?'

You serious?

You are asking for us to be stood up and counted, when the right place to get all the info is through a public enquiry. In bangladesh. Which goes into full detail, and gets all the facts, involves interpol etc, and gets convictions.

(and that bihari situatun is messed up...)

"Admin" wrote:

'Enquiry into what matter?'

You serious?

(and that bihari situatun is messed up...)

I didnt understand your question.......

All ready been number of inquires held in Bangladesh and the finger is pointed at Pakistan- now let Pakistan prosecuted war criminals within it’s military.

I believe there’s been prosecutions in the UK, three former Bangladeshi citizens, now prominent British Muslim Fundamentalists are guilty of inciting torture, mutilation and murder - and argues that they should be prosecuted under war crimes legislation in England. I'll find the document and post it.................

So if there has already been an enquiry, and the culprits found... there should be arrest warrabnts issued via Interpol...

"Admin" wrote:

My guess that a career rarely lasts 35 years.

and even in that time, most of the Pakistan military would have been in Kashmir...

Hasn't Pakistani Forces stop supporting the Mujhadeen in Kashmir, and now trying to cruse the resistance?

Pakistani part of Kashmir.

and no its the indian army that is trying to crush the resistance... i think.

"Admin" wrote:

So if there has already been an enquiry, and the culprits found... there should be arrest warrabnts issued via Interpol...

http://www.sacw.net/i_aii/pag_x.html

Quote:

Dear Friends,

We, on behalf of the following organizations, urge you to endorse the following Urgent Action regarding the trial of three war criminals of the Bangla Desh liberation war in 1971. These three war criminals, Choudhury Mueen Uddin, Abu Sayeed and Lutfur Rahman are now citizens and residents of U.K.

FACTS

In a documentary film, titled The War Crimes File produced by Twenty Twenty Television and broadcast by Channel Four on May 3, 1995, exclusive evidence is revealed of how three former Bangladeshi citizens, now prominent British Muslim Fundamentalists are guilty of inciting torture, mutilation and murder - and argues that they should be prosecuted under war crimes legislation in England.

The film presents vivid eye-witness testimonies of the involvement of these men, all of whom have lived in Britain for around 20 years, in organised assassinations and massacres during the 1971 Bangladesh war of liberation against Pakistan. All three moved to England shortly after the war and each is now a leading figure in the Bangladeshi community and actively involved in fundamentalist politics. Each was involved in Al-Badar operations, a paramilitary death squad of Pakistani Army formed by local fundamentalist political parties mainly Jamaat-I-Islami and Muslim League, in abducting and brutally killing many prominent academics, doctors and journalists in the last days of the war.

They were also involved in kidnapping and raping innocent women, looting, arsoning and all other gross violations of human rights.

Members of Pakistani- Jamaat-I-Islami

That is not an arrest warrant... It has not been given to interpol, and its not by the Bangladeshi government...

[EDIT]

And these are ethnically from Bangladesh... and involved in the bangladeshi community according that that letter.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Members of Pakistani- Jamaat-I-Islami

"[url=http://www.sacw.net/i_aii/pag_x.html wrote:

SACW[/url]"]Each was involved in Al-Badar operations, a paramilitary death squad of Pakistani Army formed by [b]local fundamentalist political parties[/b] mainly Jamaat-I-Islami and Muslim League, in abducting and brutally killing many prominent academics, doctors and journalists in the last days of the war.

Notice the word local.

"Admin" wrote:

That is not an arrest warrant... It has not been given to interpol, and its not by the Bangladeshi government...

Interpol? These three are in the UK and should according to the document face try here or in an international tribunal, the document was appealing for this information, is circulated to formal home sectaries and senior judges- I don’t know how far the case has gone since.

"Admin" wrote:

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Members of Pakistani- Jamaat-I-Islami

Notice the word local.

Refering to local [b]Biharis.[/b]

well known they cooperated with the Jamaat-i-Islami and Pakistan Military to commit these atrocities

Bihari as in the people located in bangladesh? Those according to your words that were not accepted into pakistan after division?

Interpol because the crimes were not committed in the uk. If there is evidence, they would be extradited to face trial.

I cannot see why no arrest warrant has been lodged?

I thought Jamaat-i-Islami was Indonesian

Jamaat means group. Islami means Islamic.

There are many jamaate islami. heck, the pakistani and afghani ones were on opposing sides in the taliban wars!

one other question for Shazan:

What happened in 1992? why was the quest for justice launched then?

Bedtime.

I should have been asleep over an hour ago...

i will continue 2moro.

"Admin" wrote:

Jamaat means group. Islami means Islamic.

There are many jamaate islami. heck, the pakistani and afghani ones were on opposing sides in the taliban wars!

one other question for Shazan:

What happened in 1992? why was the quest for justice launched then?

Since 1992, pro-liberation forces in Bangla Desh are demanding trial of all war criminals of 1971 in Bangla Desh, under the leadership of late Jahanara Imam, mother of martyred freedom fighter. In this regard, a public trial of Golam Azam, the chief collaborator, was also held on 26th March 1992 - the Independence Day. Presently, a public Enquiry Commission is investigating and documenting allegations against notorious war criminals of 1971.

More on Jahanara Imam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahanara_Imam

[b]Effort to try war crimes[/b]

Jahanara Imam led a relatively quite life until 1992, when she suddenly came to the forefront of political dynamics of Bangladesh. She helped organise the Ghatak-Dalal Nirmul Committee(committee to exterminate killers and collaborators), and became its public face. The committee called for trial of people who committed crimes against humanity in the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War in collaboration with the Pakistany forces. In a highly controversial symbolic act, Ghatak-Dalal Nirmul Committee set up mock trials in Dhaka known as Gonoadalot (Court of the people) and sentenced war criminals. Jahanara Imam and 24 other intellectuals were charged with treason. The charges were never dropped.

Though Imam and her associates were seeking to try crimes 20 years old at that point, their acts caused deep reverberations in the political arena of Bangladesh. In the first free elections in decades, Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) had just come to power. Imam's effort was seen by the government to undermine its power. Many of the people charged by the Gonoadalot were from Jamat-e-Islami, an Islamist party many saw as supportive of the BNP government.

"Admin" wrote:

Bihari as in the people located in bangladesh? Those according to your words that were not accepted into pakistan after division?

Biharis are from Bihar, in India. They were Indian muslims who went to bangladesh (east pakistan) or west-pakistan. The difference being that now in Pakistan they are accepted as muslim brothers and integrated citizens, but in bangladsh due to the bangla nationalists, they are not accepted as bengali, which obviously they are not originally, but they should be accepted as bangladeshi citizens. This is a failure of the bangaldeshi state, and nationalism.

Though the majority of refugees in the camps were born after 1971, they are still seen as having sided with the Pakistani army during the country's liberation war.

Pakistani Government have been mixed on the issue, they have accepted half the Biharis as citizens and the rest remain in refugee camp’s in India and Bangladesh.

I won’t deny that following the gruesome events of the 1971 war, there was a backlash against the Bihari community and that many Bengalis strongly dislike them to this day (many Biharis had joined in with the Pak army during the 71 war and pre-71 they commanded the top jobs and positions in East Pak due to their knowledge of Urdu.

"yuit" wrote:

and expressing your hate for all thing pakistani. Second i said i know nothing on the incident as most bengali and pakistani on the street don't. Third you just been looking for someone to express your anger at as you feel powerless and that cool, but it helping no one. Looking at the stats it say it all, maybe you should let them speak for themselves.

Your ignorance on this topic is dumbfounding, stop blathering on………..

I resent this. I love most Pakistanis, just not the ignorant and the blindly patriotic ones. I get no pleasure in insulting Paks. Hopefully both Yuti and I learned something useful in this discussion.

"yuit" wrote:

i said i know nothing on the incident as most bengali and pakistani on the street don't.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Your ignorance on this topic is dumbfounding, stop blathering on

"*DUST*" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

i said i know nothing on the incident as most bengali and pakistani on the street don't.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Your ignorance on this topic is dumbfounding, stop blathering on

Obviously he has befriended the very people I wish existed in my school and college.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

i said i know nothing on the incident as most bengali and pakistani on the street don't.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Your ignorance on this topic is dumbfounding, stop blathering on

Obviously he has befriended the very people I wish I had attended school with.

my point was: y are u banging on about his ignorance when he was humble enough to admit himself that he did not know anything about the incident? his problem was not with the substance of ur argument, but with ur approach.

"*DUST*" wrote:

my point was: y are u banging on about his ignorance when he was humble enough to admit himself that he did not know anything about the incident? his problem was not with the substance of ur argument, but with ur approach.

Read his comments, and polemic stick he is beating me with.

He clearly doesn’t know what he is talking concerning this issue, the he should keep his mouth firmly closed.

And should I apologies for his open ignorance on this matter then try to assert I hate Pakistani, without ever showing an interest to learn what happen in 1971?

Shazan from your posts i've gathered the following;

1. There was a genocide of Bengalis by Pakistan in 1971
2. Nothing significant has been done about this
3. You a victim are angry
4. You would like Pakistan and the World to recognize and apologize for the genocide, as well as teach about it and take positive steps to prevent it in the future, furthermore you would like the war criminals brought to justice.

There is nothing unjustified or unnatural about any of this. I think what's happening here is people are taking your anger as a victim, and applying it to your request that Pakistan admit it and do something about it, and inferring that you are racist.

I'm sorry people but i'm just not seeing it. Admittedly I was a little confused when he came on the first time so angry demanding pakistanis do something about this. But after learning about his very personal connection, which explains the anger, and the magnitude of this travesty which explains his irritation that almost nothing has been done about it and on top of that the persistent "blaim the victim" accusations he's a racist, Shazan and his points are completely understandable and reasonable.

Accusations of racism or nationalism, or asking him to "let it go" for muslim brotherhood would probably put me over the top were I in his shoes too. I think Yuit mentioned a little while back that the latter is best served if the Bengalis forgive and forget or just drop it. I'm no expert in muslim brotherhood but I do know a few things about human relationships, and it seems to me that you cannot forgive somebody until the other person at LEAST admits they did something wrong. There really are two routes, Pakistan can and should admit what happened, bring criminals to justice and take positive steps at prevention in the future - that is one overture toward reconciliation and I think it's the most honest foundation. The second would be the "drop it for the higher cause" route, calling on the Bengalis to set their differences aside and stop talking about this uncomfortable subject. To me that sounds somewhat perverse - but all the same it's asking too much, I would submit that any such reconciliation would be built upon a lie, and would only be as strong as the bengalis ability to make believe nothing happened to them.

The suggestions of Shazan and Latifah do not represent nationalist, prejudiced, or racist views - but rather the best route toward reconciliation and justice.

It seems like the opposing views here are blaiming the victim and anybody can see why that would make Shazan angry.

Thank you, that was a very well summarized, perhaps my heart felt discontent at the lack of progress being made in Pakistan has clouded my views, when ever someone is deprived justice, people become unbalanced and consumed with abhorrence towards Pakistan, in this instance.

Bengali nationalism was only a response to West Pakistani oppression and subjugation.

My personal feeling in meeting those who show little or any sympathy for what happen in 1971, haven’t lost their swagger and bellicosity mentality still is prevalent more so in Pakistan then in the UK.

Latifah has made a valuable point- how can what happened in 1971, which was pure banditry behaviour go unpunished?

Think of the towns annihilated in the boxing day 2004 tsunami in the Indian Ocean and then you have 1971, the difference being that one disaster was delivered in minutes by nature, the other in 9 months with great effort, planning and determination by savages.

A nation which still is in denial and adores it’s military achievement having lost almost all wars it has fought in- the problem is far beyond emotional feelings, on a political and social justice level- all institution have failed in Pakistan to educated its population on it’s bloody nationalist history.

If Islam was properly respected and followed from the beginning then this mess wouldn't have occurred.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

my point was: y are u banging on about his ignorance when he was humble enough to admit himself that he did not know anything about the incident? his problem was not with the substance of ur argument, but with ur approach.

Read his comments, and polemic stick he is beating me with.

He clearly doesn’t know what he is talking concerning this issue, the he should keep his mouth firmly closed.

And should I apologies for his open ignorance on this matter then try to assert I hate Pakistani, without ever showing an interest to learn what happen in 1971?

First thing, who said i haven't shown a interest in what happening or acted like i knew anything about the situation. I only found out these event existed like 2 days ago, so i not going to act like i know everything.

My comment have been directly about u and ur method of projecting your agrument, not the content the manner. But i said enough on that and won't say anymore.

Plus Dave there been no opposing view to Shazan agrument, no one has been blaming the victim from what i read. I call for justice, my point on brotherhood was talking about how me and my bengali mate have move on and haven't let our country history affect us in anyway, I say nearly all the bengali i have come across have been on the same thinking as well. I wasn't talking about allowing the people who comminted genocide to be left off the hook, or people not to campaign for justice, my comment was just on how current Bengali and Pakisatni shouldn't allow what happen in the past effect today realitionship as i hold no repsonibility for what happen in the past like none of today pakistani do.

Augustus I read it all diferently.

Before yesterday i would have agreed with your 4 points.

The problem is that the 'pakistan' in point 1 is now mostly bengali.

True the cream of the conspirators are still in Pakistan (and dead by now...)

From my understanding gained since yesterday:

There was a civil war. There were separatists AND loyalists who were fighting in Bangladesh.

Both sides committed attrocities, but snce the loyalists had the support of the army, they committed far more.

That army was the pakistan army, which after partition is the Bangladeshi army. There was very little rotation of troops before the split of bangladesh.

local members of parties, which were on both sides of Pakistan, and were loyalists also committed attrocities. But they are now also bangladeshi.

in Short bangladesh can go a very far way to get justice. Since thre majority of those involved were locals from there, theya re either still in bangladesh, fled abroad, or dead. in the first case, thye should be tried, in the second, interpol should be used. In the third, well I think hell is worse than any punishment that can be done on earth...

And then there are the mainland Pakistani conspirators. Which may still be alive. Here you need to gain evidence and get either an international trial.

and who is 'the freedom fighter'?