[b]Hussein skips court: Trial resumes without Hussein[/b]
[img]http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/meast/12/07/saddam.hussein.trial/t1.ch...
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein's trial resumed Wednesday after a delay of several hours with the deposed Iraqi leader absent from the courtroom.
Chief Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin opened the session at 3 p.m. (7 a.m. ET), about four hours late, and called the first witness.
Hussein's chair sat empty at the front of the dock, and his chief lawyer thanked Amin for continuing the proceedings.
Amin said Hussein would be told about the proceedings taking place in his absence and that judges would meet with the defense team after Wednesday's session to discuss the lawyers' security situation.
On Tuesday, Hussein threatened not to return to court after five witnesses testified about brutalities they experienced during a government crackdown 23 years ago.
At the end of the nine-hour court session, Hussein complained that he and his seven co-defendants were tired and had been deprived of opportunities to shower, have a change of clothes, exercise or go for a smoke.
"I will not be in a court without justice. Go to hell, all you agents of America," Hussein told the court.
Wednesday morning, Hussein's lawyers conferred with the trial's judges and then the defendant, apparently in an effort to resolve the situation, CNN's Aneesh Raman reported from Baghdad.
CNN's Nic Robertson described the situation as a "power struggle between Saddam Hussein and the court."
Hussein and seven other defendants are on trial in connection with the deaths of more than 140 men in Dujail, a town north of Baghdad. The 1982 killings were considered retribution for a failed assassination attempt on Hussein.
Tuesday's witnesses -- three men and two women sitting behind a curtain with voices disguised by a modulator -- described beatings, electrocutions and deaths in 1982.
Hussein and the Baath Party were firmly in power then, and the country was at war with Iran, a crucial period in the nation's history.
Fears of retribution by Saddam loyalists forced the court to shield the witnesses' identities. Witnesses are allowed to have their voices altered to hide their identities from the defendants, media and people in the visitors' gallery -- but not from the judges or attorneys.
Breaking down in tears, a woman identified only as "Witness A" described mistreatment by Iraqi intelligence officers while at Abu Ghraib prison 20 years ago and then captivity in the desert. She said she was beaten with cables and given electric shocks.
She also described the torture of family members and other prisoners and the destruction of homes and orchards. (Watch report of woman's dramatic testimony -- 1:24)
After her came an older woman identified as "Witness B" and a man identified as "Witness C."
The latter testified that he was 12 when he was rounded up in 1982. He said that he was taken first to Baath Party headquarters in Dujail, then to Baghdad, where he was tortured and sent to Abu Ghraib jail. He eventually was taken to a desert prison camp, where he spent four years before being returned to Dujail. ( Watch a roundup of the emotional testimony and Hussein's angry response -- 3:19)
Asked which of the defendants he held accountable, Witness C testified that he saw defendant Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, at the Baath headquarters in Dujail.
During his cross-examination of Witness C, al-Tikriti acknowledged that he was at Baath headquarters but recalled a different encounter.
"Don't you remember? I was there. I kissed 60 men. I shook their hands, and I set them free," al-Tikriti said.
Defense attorneys questioned the accuracy of Witness C's childhood recollections.
A man testifying as "Witness D" said that he hasn't seen his son since the 16-year-old was whisked away in 1982.
The man said that after Hussein's ouster, papers were discovered indicating his son had died.
The defense pounced on this detail, questioning its authenticity.
"Witness E" also described abuse that followed the Dujail roundup.
More subdued session
Tuesday's nine-hour session was more controlled than Monday's chaotic proceeding, which was punctuated by Hussein's outbursts. Chief Judge Amin, in charge of the proceeding, attempted to keep the unnamed witnesses on point.
At the end of the day, Hussein complained that he had been wearing the same shirt and underwear for three days. He said he's tired and indicated that he isn't inclined to carry on Wednesday -- when two more witnesses are scheduled to testify.
The ex-dictator said the United States wants to execute him and finish off what he called the theater of Saddam Hussein.
He also said he wanted to know why he and the other defendants were not asked whether they had been tortured.
More hiccups came in the form of technical glitches during the day's proceedings.
Defense lawyers complained during Witness A's testimony that the equipment disguising her voice made it difficult to understand her, which prompted the judge to order that her voice modulator be turned off.
During Witness B's testimony, the judge shut off the modulation system because he thought it wasn't operating properly. But in shutting it off, all feeds from the courtroom were cut as well.
[i]http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/07/saddam.hussein.trial/index.htm...
Well this is an unfortunate development...
it must be xmas panto season, tis a farce :roll:
He must have had a bad back.
But his chair seems very comfortable, even if it is inside a man-crib.
Salam
Evidently, this is a kangaroo court in Baghdad.
Saddam ought to be tried in an independent and neutral court of law established by an international body.
American court would also be acceptable. They are not corrupt.
Omrow
That man has a LOT of pride and dignity.
A bit too much :?
if there is no legit evidence prove his brutality which everyone is shouting about, then i hope he wins this trial and is set free..
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
interesting to hear what is going to happen next
never seen such a colourful trial
then the war would have been pointless :roll:
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1061
dave my brainwashed american friend how r u? r ya getting bored of the 4rum coz u dont come on much now?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Fortunately there is an abundance of legitimate evidence so we won't have to consider that.
I hope people don't get carried away with criticising the United States in Iraq - to such a point the brutality of Saddam is forgiven or even ignored.
Regardless of the crimes of my country, Saddam must answer for his.
Judda - splendid, but completely inundated with work, 4 cumulative finals and 4 research papers of about 7-8 pages each due over the course of this week and the next.
I wrote an 8 page paper in one day about a guy I knew nothing about literally until yesterday.
Absolutely insane what they force us to deal with
:roll:
sorry, its just the critiscing the US bit that made me laugh.
Evidence; most 'probably', I for sure will never see it. But will take everyones word for it cautiously.
Dont wanna go into the semantics of going to War for known WMDs and then seeing it as victorious for the US because the removal of a brutal dictator..
whatever the situation on the evidence of the genocides, evil ways of Hussain. No way, do I see the blood of 30000 or so civilians after America invaded, on Husseins hands.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
[size=24]Sunni Disposition [/size]
[size=18]These moderates should be our friends. [/size]
By Hedieh Mirahmadi
Sheikh Afeef Abdul Qadir Gailani is one of Iraq's leading Sunni clerics, a moderate leader who could have done much to help the United States-led Coalition restore order and peace in his homeland. I say he could have, because he was forced to flee Iraq and is currently living in self-imposed exile in Kuala Lumpur. I recently met with him there and believe that his story partly explains the chaos in Fallujah today.
Sheikh Gailani is the inheritor of the great saint of Baghdad, Abdul Qadir Gailani (d. 1166). For years he maintained the mosque, community center, and school named after his ancestor, where almost 5,000 people were fed every day by his charity. Like many other moderate, religious Iraqi Sunnis (as distinguished from secularists), Sheikh Gailani is a Sufi of the Qadari Sufi Order. Under Saddam Hussein, the Sufis were more or less the only group allowed to run mosques and practice their religion freely. This was because, historically, they were non-political and non-confrontational. A Sufi — an often misused term today — simply means a practicing Muslim who has accepted additional religious duties to achieve heightened spirituality. Traditionally, Sufis have been more interested in their personal relationship with God than with politics, keeping a low profile and maintaining their religious traditions. Sufis can be either Shiite or Sunni.
Sheikh Gailani would not say that he enjoyed an easy life under Saddam, but he was free to practice Islam and was part of the established Sunni authority of greater Baghdad. He and clerics like him, including the Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Karim Mudarris, were internationally respected Islamic scholars and teachers of classical, moderate Islam. Saddam knew well that the best bulwark against the rise of jihadists was the Sufis, so he relied on them to keep the jihadis and the Muslim Brotherhood out of Iraq's mosques. Everyone knew Saddam did not like competition, and this uneasy relationship helped ensure there was none from Islamists. It is important to note, however, that these Sunnis were not Baathists. Unlike the Shia of the South or the Islamists, allowing the Sufis to operate the religious administration served Saddam's agenda of absolute authority, so he largely left them alone.
The fall of Saddam changed this whole dynamic overnight. In the commotion of war, the Islamists, calling themselves "Saddam dissidents," had the ear of Coalition leaders. They cleverly made the case that, as opponents of Saddam in exile or in prison, they were the natural allies of the U.S. We used them as informants, translators, and confidantes — inadvertently empowering the very people who are now plotting our death at night.
Between these newly ascendant Islamists and the U.S.-allied Shia, there was no room in the public square for the moderate Sufi Sunnis. The Sufis were no less supportive of the invasion and the ousting of Saddam; but the power-hungry Islamists sought revenge against these so-called "privileged" Muslims. They gave false evidence to Coalition forces about bombs, Baathists, and Saddam loyalists amongst them. In turn, Coalition forces raided their homes, imprisoned their fathers, brothers, and sons, and progressively alienated those who would otherwise have been our strongest allies.
Sheikh Gailani and the more than 1,000 clerics who follow him were left powerless. They had no friends in the CPA to plead their case and the ransacking of their communities continued. Islamists were pleased because Coalition forces were doing the dirty work for them and they benefited by taking over the schools and mosques formerly controlled by Sufi moderates. However, this very large segment of the Iraqi people would not stay silent forever. They demanded Gailani and other clerics intervene and organize a resistance like that of the Shia and the Islamists. Gailani refused, saying that what they were calling for would instigate a civil war.
Without leadership, the people — in old tribal fashion — sought revenge for the death of their loved ones and exacted retribution. They resisted Coalition forces because of the horror stories they heard — tales passed from home to home of loved ones captured and disappearing forever — just as they had in the days of Saddam. As a consequence, our troops are fighting against both would-be friends and genuine foes in the Sunni Triangle.
Recently, the Islamists came to Gailani's own mosque and demanded his expulsion. The community begged him to stay and fight, but again he refused. The centuries-old home of his noble ancestors is probably in the hands of Jihadi fighters who revile his spiritual beliefs and are undoubtedly using it as a safe-house for terrorists.
There is a way out of this mess. First, we must realize that what we see today in many parts of Sunni Iraq is a combined resistance of jihadis as well as Sunni traditionalists fighting desperately for self-preservation. The latter have no seat on the Governing Council, no relationship with the CPA, and hence no future in the governance of Iraq. Those who do not understand the subtleties of domestic politics there might be glad to be rid of leaders who did nothing to fight Saddam's oppression. In reality, though, the continuing disenfranchisement of this moderate majority is a recipe for disaster. Creating oppressed and bitter masses in the north will not breed stability; ultimately, it could lead to the dreaded civil war that so many are warning about and that al Qaeda has promised to incite. We do not need "re-Baathification" but we do need the "Sunnification" of Iraq. We need to reach out to these moderate Sunni masses and give them a seat at the table — lest they take it by force.
— Hedieh Mirahmadi formerly served as senior advisor to the U.S. embassy in Kabul and currently is a consultant on international Islamist extremism.
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
u know what hayder,
that article started off very interesting, must admit I lost the plot half way down.
but the last bit.. Sufi's taking a seat on the table by force? :shock:
interesting times.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
probably coz he stole everyone elses whilst in power... :roll:
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
This war was indescribably pointless….When idiots see the mess America and Britain made of Iraq they will only follow the foot steps of the 7/7 bombers. 70% of Londoners said that 7/7 was coz of Iraq. Then once that happens the gov will blame it on “fanatical Islam” ‘that hates the west. One of the 7/7 bombers was indulging in fornication, his girl friend said he was an innocent guy in a magazine, the boys all seemed pretty liberal, but the stupid government still said it was “fanatical Islam”…. The treaty of Versialle cause the rise of Hitler and USA and UK are causing the rise of suicide bombers, but then they will blame it on “fanatical Islam”. This fanatical Islam is ALL dream, over a few nutcases they condemn a whole religion. The global unity event was pretty controversial once this new stupid law is past there will be no freedom of speech and I very much doubt they would allow the event to go on next year.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
and ur supposed to be a 14 year old
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
yup i is waaaaaaaaaaay too intellegent to be one
Yuit said i had the intellellegence of a 20 year old
so hayder tell me wot u find so funny?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
ur little charade :roll:
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
huh?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
dave i know ur brainwashed but y do u think 7/7 happened?
fanatical islam or iraq?
I used to think that 9/11 was down to theology, but i've changed my mind now it was purely a political thing...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Political - I would say Iraq played an important part of it, however there is far more that I think went into it than just Iraq. London has the largest concentration of muslims in Britain (I think) or certainly one of the largest. You are having some interesting challenges with integration which I think played a major part of it. On top of that there are issues like Babar Ahmed and various other political problems which probably went into the mix too.
But I would probably point the finger at integration into British culture as the number one culpret. American Muslims are every bit as politically charged as British muslims - though significantly smaller in number. However we are just a little better at integration and as last I checked it is not among the chief concerns of American Muslims at all. Consequently with a Muslim population just as incensed about Iraq as Britain - if not more so since it's our war, you might expect terrorist attacks from "home grown" muslims, this has not happened as far as I know.
This leads me to conclude that integration and ethnic/religious isolation is a really important factor in terrorist attacks from a nations own citizenry.
I'm begining to question whether integration is an issue here at all. Maybe I need someone to clarrify it for me again. :?
How does not feeling like a part of the Great British society lead to someone blowing themselves up?
exactly :!:
i don't feel very british but something as sick as that would NEVER cross my mind. The boys were actually well integrated in society. one of them was even dating white girls, they were prolly more integrated then most ppl on da 4rum....it was deffo to do wid iraq.
dave i know amercian and british media is all propaganda but did u c da mess they made out of iraq?
[b] Mind your language. Otherwise its the soap bar for you. And I dont mean your experiences in the prison showers, I meant your tongue -------- NewModOnTheBlock [/b]
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
The relations with the white girl and the drinking - that makes me question the integration factor here.
why does it?
whats the big deal?
once thats over they become wahabi :twisted:
beast i didn't say they were drinking i just sed one of dem was playing around thats all.
IMO some ppl integrate very little and some ppl take it a bit too far...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Maybe that has more to do with it than anythin else.
It's this 'conversion phase' that gives them justification for blowing people up and provides them with the contacts and means to do it.
lol no ur missing my point
notice how ppl who spend thier youth drinking, playing, taking drugs, clubbing, and so on..... once they get sick of that they reject the 'western life' (sorry if that sounds steriotypical) and what ever sect they used to belong to before they reject that and become a hardcore wahabi...
i noctice ppl like that go all posseseive over thier wives and force them to where a niqab because they don't want them to 'inflame' men. They have this sort of vision that all men are perverts and they do everything they can to make sure the women in thier life (i mean women like mum,sis,wifey, ect) are 'modest' enough.
ppl that do that r not really the type IMO to blow them selves up. IMO they saw the mess made of Iraq and some weirdo promised them virgins in paradise, brainwashed them, blocked all logic and emotion and made them blow them self up. I reckon it was the anger because of Iraq that was the prime cause to what they did...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
'Conversion period'.
huh?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
This is the conversion period I was talking about.
People who become Salafi generally just have whacked out political views but they don't blow themselves up.
The 7/7 bombers went a step further. It is this 'step further' that IMO people should really talk about instead of often meaningless debates about integration.
if they stop attacking every muslim country on the map the problem would just disapear... ppl r allowed to thier own opinion when it comes to politics however 'wacko' they might be. The suacide bombing problem wud just disapear if america and britain didn't strike first then think later.... they are the prime cause of terorism and we have to stop them in order to stop the suacide bombers.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
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