Thanks for the explanation Amber - no need to repost I got it.

Hey folks... it seems like Med's position is going to get a little.. personal

Let's agree not to go ad hom

"Med" wrote:

A question was asked, an answer was given. Why u are acting so shocked is beyond me, can any1 say they expected me to write anything different?

By the way those people being from Ahlul Bid'ah does not mean I think they going to hell or that they are not sincere or that they are not doing a lot of work for deen. It means that they in my view engage in acts of innovation, it is not mutually exclusive that they are at the same time working hard and being sincere.

I dont need to say much more.

oh thats what your ONLY saying?

you are a silly boy who needs to keep his mouth shut cuz one of the scholars you named is my scholar, I have never said anythin about your scholars i could go off on one and say this and that but my Shaykh, Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri has taught me better than that.

You sure do put of ppl cumin from this forum, your borin pathetic etc.

Oh and one last thing ...name all the things which are Bid'ah backed up with Quran and Ahadith...thats all i ask.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

and according to Islam those who commits acts of innovation should "TAKE THEIR PLACE IN HELL"

and I doubt ur not familiar with the hadith on Biddah :roll:

also then ahadeeth state that the person who has a grain of arrogance in his heart will not smell the fragrance of paradise, that the women who dress in a way to attract men will not smell paradise even.

The ahadeeth also mention that the ones guilty of shirk are doomed to eternal damnation, to burn in the depths of hell and to be tortured and punished for all eternity for their sin against ALLAH.

But from this do I say that muslim prostitutes are going to hell? or that arrogant people are going to hell or that specific hindus are going to hell?

No, because what I believe is that ALLAH will judge in HIS wisdom, it is not my concern to say that these are Ahlul Bid'ah so they are Ahlun Naar. No, that is not in me.

ALLAH alone will judge each of us. What I am saying is that on a theological level these people engage in innovated practices, these people are misguided in some issues.

Bas. Further comments cannot be made by me.

May ALLAH guide us all to the Straight Path and grant us steadfastness. May He open up the doorways of Sunnah for us and close the doorways of Bid'ah. May He fill our hearts with tawheed and save us from shirk, may our death be upon imaan e kamilah, and save us from kufr.

ameen Ya Rabbal Alameen.

I meant no offence to any1.

Irfghan asked me a question, others have repeatedly asked me questions.

Today I answered, and fyo my ustaads havent told me to go insulting any1 either, I do not mean offence to any1, if in my view such people are spreading innovation in the ummah, then I will say so.

And Quran and Sunnah to establish bid'ah?

I think u missing the point, Bid'ah is the nemesis of sunnah.

ur post was contradictary

on one hand u claim that u "believe that ALLAH will judge in HIS wisdom, it is not my concern to say that these are Ahlul Bid'ah" and that "ALLAH alone will judge each of us".

but then ur own perfect "theological understanding" u have come to the conclusion that them TOP SCHOLARS "engage in innovated practices, and are "misguided" :roll:

either u judge and condemn or u dont

choose one

there is no contradiction. The point about judging them is that some assumed that because I think they are Ahlul Bid'ah then they are Ahlun Naar, I pointed out that that is not my point or view.

"Med" wrote:

No, because what I believe is that ALLAH will judge in HIS wisdom, it is not my concern to say that these are Ahlul Bid'ah [b]so they are Ahlun Naar. No, that is not in me.[/b]

Please be kind enough to quote my full sentence or atleast the full context of what i say. Your cutting off at Bid'ah conveyed a different meaning to what was actually written in the text, but I can say I shouldnt be surprised.

i dont know what ahlun naar is

point is, u called condemned them as "ahle biddah"

that is a very serious accusation

u cant blame the followers of such scholars for getting angry with u

no i dont blame them for being angry. I understand their anger.

Ahlun Naar are the People of the Fire.

so why dont u think that the ahle biddah people will enter hell when hadiths clearly state that?

"Med" wrote:

also then ahadeeth state that the person who has a grain of arrogance in his heart will not smell the fragrance of paradise, that the women who dress in a way to attract men will not smell paradise even.

The ahadeeth also mention that the ones guilty of shirk are doomed to eternal damnation, to burn in the depths of hell and to be tortured and punished for all eternity for their sin against ALLAH.

But from this do I say that muslim prostitutes are going to hell? or that arrogant people are going to hell or that specific hindus are going to hell?

No, because what I believe is that ALLAH will judge in HIS wisdom, it is not my concern to say that these are Ahlul Bid'ah so they are Ahlun Naar. No, that is not in me.

ALLAH alone will judge each of us. What I am saying is that on a theological level these people engage in innovated practices, these people are misguided in some issues.

that question has already been answered above.

so basically u like to ascribe the crime/sin on people but not the punishment?

so if I accused ur teacher of shirk, this dont mean that I think that he will go to hell-even though we are ALL aware what Islam says about people who commit shirk

whatever u say :roll:

i turn the question around to you.

Are muslim prostitutes going to hell?

Are all arrogant people going to hell?

This is futile indeed.

"Med" wrote:

ok, i shall make mention of some . . .

some people of Ahlul Bid'ah are:

Mufti Gul Rahman, of Bham,
Peer Ahmad Shah Noorani,
Peer Irfan Shah Mashadi,
Molwi Ahmad Ridha Khan Barelwi,
Hashmi Miyan of India.
Molwi Tahir ul Qadri
Molwi Faiz ul Qadri.
Molwi Hamza Yusuf
Molwi Zayd Shakir

Bravo Med! at least and at last you have made yourself clear

now all you have to do is respect the fact that a lot of people me especially really really look up to and respect these fabulous scholars

you think that calling them molwi is any way degrading them but it only shows your own bad manners its like if i continued to call you Mad even though i know you are called Med

"Med" wrote:

i turn the question around to you.

Are muslim prostitutes going to hell?

Are all arrogant people going to hell?

This is futile indeed.

I wouldnt call anyone a prostitute unless I was 101% sure that she WAS protistuting herself

I'd have to see it to believe-I would not listen to heresay

and arrogance is sumin that u cant see-its hidden

i wouldnt throw around names so carelessly

so have you SEEN them top scholars commiting biddah?

"Med" wrote:

A question was asked, an answer was given. Why u are acting so shocked is beyond me, can any1 say they expected me to write anything different?

By the way those people being from Ahlul Bid'ah does not mean I think they going to hell or that they are not sincere or that they are not doing a lot of work for deen. It means that they in my view engage in acts of innovation, it is not mutually exclusive that they are at the same time working hard and being sincere.

I dont need to say much more.

So med, what do u classify your ustadji as? Ahlul Bidah or not? If he is not Ahlul Bidah then it means he rides horses (or mules), lives in a mud houses etc etc. Cause if he rides cars, planes, lives in normal brick buildings then I guess he is Ahlul Bidah,then? Or in your tiny little mind he is not classified as Ahlul Bidah, or is it one rule for everyone else and a different one for your beloved ustadji?

Again who is he? I might even know him? Does he live down south? In B'ham or some dingy little town?

"seema*" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

ok, i shall make mention of some . . .

some people of Ahlul Bid'ah are:

Mufti Gul Rahman, of Bham,
Peer Ahmad Shah Noorani,
Peer Irfan Shah Mashadi,
Molwi Ahmad Ridha Khan Barelwi,
Hashmi Miyan of India.
Molwi Tahir ul Qadri
Molwi Faiz ul Qadri.
Molwi Hamza Yusuf
Molwi Zayd Shakir

Bravo Med! at least and at last you have made yourself clear

now all you have to do is respect the fact that a lot of people me especially really really look up to and respect these fabulous scholars

you think that calling them molwi is any way degrading them but it only shows your own bad manners its like if i continued to call you Mad even though i know you are called Med

The one who is called a Mufti in bham I called him a mufti, the ones who are known as peers i have called peers, the remaining who have long titles and names have all been referred to molwi.

Maybe in ur language Molwi is a derogatory term, by us it means My Master and is normally used for religious scholars. So if u think molwi is a derogatory term then thats ur problem.

If I wanted to shame ppl by calling them molwi, then y wud I refer to others as mufti and others as peer?

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

i turn the question around to you.

Are muslim prostitutes going to hell?

Are all arrogant people going to hell?

This is futile indeed.

I wouldnt call anyone a prostitute unless I was 101% sure that she WAS protistuting herself

I'd have to see it to believe-I would not listen to heresay

and arrogance is sumin that u cant see-its hidden

i wouldnt throw around names so carelessly

so have you SEEN them top scholars commiting biddah?

Im not asking u to name a muslim prostitute or a muslim who is arrogant and say he/she is going to hell. I was asking, just as u asked me to say that the Ahlul Bid'ah are going to hell, that wud u also say that arrogant and prostitute muslims are going to hell?

No, I dont think u wud.

Similarly I say there exist Ahlul Bid'ah, but I cant make judgment on them.

"Amber" wrote:

[
So med, what do u classify your ustadji as? Ahlul Bidah or not? If he is not Ahlul Bidah then it means he rides horses (or mules), lives in a mud houses etc etc. Cause if he rides cars, planes, lives in normal brick buildings then I guess he is Ahlul Bidah,then? Or in your tiny little mind he is not classified as Ahlul Bidah, or is it one rule for everyone else and a different one for your beloved ustadji?

Again who is he? I might even know him? Does he live down south? In B'ham or some dingy little town?

I advise you learn what Bid'ah is before commenting. Your post illustrates a great deal.

really i didnt know that in that case please accept my sincere apologies, i just thought it was as easy to call Imam Ahmed Radah Khan Imaam as it was Molvi since he is know as Imam, but hey never mind its a simple misunderstanding

and I told u arrognance is sumin I cant see so I wouldnt ascribe a person as being arrogant

nor do I personally know of any protstitues

my point was u have to SEE the sin being commited before u cant talk-and its always better to be safe then sorry

"seema*" wrote:

really i didnt know that in that case please accept my sincere apologies, i just thought it was as easy to call Imam Ahmed Radah Khan Imaam as it was Molvi since he is know as Imam, but hey never mind its a simple misunderstanding

no need for apologies, yes imam ahmad ridha, or imam tahir ul qadri, doesnt make a big difference to me.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

and I told u arrognance is sumin I cant see so I wouldnt ascribe a person as being arrogant

nor do I personally know of any protstitues

my point was u have to SEE the sin being commited before u cant talk-and its always better to be safe then sorry

I dont think u are understanding what is being said.

I am asking do you say an arrogant muslim, not specifying because you dont know who is or isnt arrogant, but wud u say an arrogant muslim is going to hell?

No, u are making clear that u are not willing to say that a hypothetical muslim who has arrogance will go to hell, this is the same as what I have said. I dont say the Ahlul Bid'ah are going to hell, that is not in me.

Guys we asked him a question.

He answered.

Atleast we know who he means in his posts.

At the end of the day no biggie. Why should anybody worry?

Its not that he is right anyway :twisted:

"Med" wrote:

I meant no offence to any1.

Irfghan asked me a question, others have repeatedly asked me questions.

Today I answered, and fyo my ustaads havent told me to go insulting any1 either, I do not mean offence to any1, if in my view such people are spreading innovation in the ummah, then I will say so.

And Quran and Sunnah to establish bid'ah?

I think u missing the point, Bid'ah is the nemesis of sunnah.

By the way, I guess your ustadji has not told you and of course they might not be aware of this fact but their is good innovation and their is bad innovation, have you heard of bida-e-hasana (good innovation) bida-e-dalala (bad innovation) haven't you read a very renowned hadith (or do you classify that as zaeef (weak) hadith:

Where Hazrat Umar (RA) Ameer-ul-Momineen (second Caliph of Muslims) entered mosque during the month of Ramadan, and saw people praying by themselves and then he told them to get together to do collective praying. And the next day he came and saw the Imam leading tarabee prayer and said "What a beautiful [b]bidah[/b]this is. (Sahih Bukhari)

If you don't believe me then find out for yourselve, but you're heart, ears & eyes have become sealed, that you refuse to see the truth and believe whatever your puny little mind allows you too.

Back to the hadith, so what do you classify Ameer-ul-Momineen as? Is he Ahlul Bidah as well? What do your great scholars say to that? tell me. Don't ignore the question, you have placed your opinion and on this forum in order for people to have a clear mind of Islam we have a full right to question you, so that their minds are not corrupted by misconception placed by the likes of you.

"Admin" wrote:

Guys we asked him a question.

He answered.

Atleast we know who he means in his posts.

At the end of the day no biggie. Why should anybody worry?

Its not that he is right anyway :twisted:

He is not right but what about those people who come here to learn about Islam and get misguided by the likes of him???

"Med" wrote:

I am asking do you say an arrogant muslim, not specifying because you dont know who is or isnt arrogant, but wud u say an arrogant muslim is going to hell?

of course arrogant muslims can not enter heaven.

However, unlike you i will not single out and NAME an arrognat person the way u NAMED the top scholars and accused them of commiting biddah.

I hve nothing further to add.

If you claim to knw so much abt different types of bid'aat then why did u refer to aeroplanes and brick houses as being acts of bid'ah?

Amber, u can comment on this all u like, I have answered alhamdulillah.

"Amber" wrote:

He is not right but what about those people who come here to learn about Islam and get misguided by the likes of him???

We have plenty of people who can provide evidence opposing his views.

If a person is given the choice between evidence, and rant, i would assume the evidene would be chosen.

We here discuss issues. people have dif opinions. everyone has to make their own mind.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

of course arrogant muslims can not enter heaven.

However, unlike you i will not single out and NAME an arrognat person the way u NAMED the top scholars and accused them of commiting biddah.

and unlike you , i wont say that arrogant muslims wont enter paradise, nor will i say muslim prostitues wont enter paradise.

and abt naming, som1 asked who it was I referred to, so I responded with the answer. It can be seen that I was reluctant to do this as I was sure it was not going to have much benefit but I constantly get that apparently I make accusations and then back away. Well now u knw, these type of people are Ahlul Bid'ah.