"Muslimbrother1" wrote:

Firstly if i get banned then ill know whos the one who really sulks (you). it seems to me from what you said that brailwis are more concerned with beliefs which have nothing to do with true Islam, and leave acts which are actually important on a sideline. This is exactly what turned me away from brailwism in the first place.
Dont make me laugh, whats there to study about something which was never commanded by Allah, the Holy Prophet (saws) or his companions. Islam was given to us in a perfect form. Brailwis or shias etc are sects which have corrupted our beautiful religion with invented beliefs.

[b]This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion . . ." [al-Maa'idah 5:3] [/b]

Therefore in my opinion , we should do only what has been commanded for us to do, using ONLY Quran and Sunnah and opinions of classical scholars as our guideline. We have no knowledge of the hereafter and dont know whether waseelah of saints will help you on the day of ressurection

[b]Surah AL-ISRA chapter number 17 verse number 36
"And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). "[/b]

[b]Surah AN-NOOR chapter number 24 verse number 15
"Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah. "[/b]

Similarly, you say things like the Holy Prophet is Hazir and Nazir, and that the Prophet is Nur of Allah. did the Prophet saw himself say that he can see anything at anytime or that he is Allah's Nur? No, then your aqeedah is made up of baseless lies, unless you can prove otherwise

Another thing I dont understand if why you have hatred towards Deobandis, the Ulema of Darul uloom state that a person is a Sunni as long as he follows any one of the four Madhabs and is considered a true muslim.

Actually its you who are the sectarians, calling anyone who speaks out against your beliefs a kaffir.

of course we should only do what Quran and sunnah says...
if i write or say anything against quran and sunnah or against what the classical scholars have said in the last 1000 years then please do correct me.

no what.... about brelwis, i aint one, never was one, never will be one. i aint deobandi, never was , never will be. i get accused of being brelwi, deobandi, wahabi all the time... doesnt bother me.
if i celebrate milad or belief in tawassul , i am brelwi! if i say the Prophet is not noor of Allah i become wahabbi. if i say having a fixed day of 4th or 4oth day for esaal-e-sawaab is not based on evidence i become a deobandi.

you see, i also have problems with parts of brelwi beleif , where there is no support for it. alot o fbrelwi imams i know have no real knowlege...the knowledgable ones know their stuff but are too sectarian.
same applies with deobandis and salfis.

i get on with anyone. i may not agree with their beliefs but i get on with and also work along with brelwis, deobandis, salfais for eg with the revival magazine, radio shows, exhibition stalls, events etc....
you get the good, bad, extremist, narrowminded, intelligent, respectful etc in all sects, groups etc....

now issue of noor, haazir naazir etc are open to ikhtilaaf, different interpretations...most important thing is these beliefs should not be the main tenets of our faith....i have spoken to hanafi, shafi, hanbli and maliki ulema on these two issues- non brelwis- and some agree with these concepts and others dont. All of them base their arguments on quran and sunnah, tafsir, classical scholars etc...
To me i dont care if the Prophet was noor or not, haazir or not.... its not important to me...i dont waste my time on these issues...but for you to throw yet another accusation that these beliefs are based on baseless lies...what can i say? This is the cause of sectarianism my friend. All you have to say is i dont accept those beliefs, i dont think there is no evidence, or pls show me your evidence.....

the reality is brelwis hate deobandis and deobandis hate brelwi...i dont know any scholar belonging to these sects who thinks otherwise..some say it publicly, others secretly.
i have extremely good deobandi, brelwi and salafi friends...their aqeeda is not a problem to me...that is their own pesonal matter, which they will be responsible for..not me.

you dont need to get upset bro. all i would say is , it is pointless to discuss these issues in detail on a forum, as these issues need tafsir, ulema, deep knowledge which i dont think any of us on this forum have.

i never have an dnever wil accuse anyone of kufr, shirk, bidah...who am i to do so?
i will point out ppl who promote sectarianism, accuse others of kufr, bidah, shirk....does that make me sectarian?

The above is for Muslimbrother1 , Med...
lets leave the debates to the ulema....and discuss important issues facing our youth.

"Med" wrote:

brother I think there is some confusion in your understanding of waseelah. Asking ALLAH for the sake of a person is jaiz, that is waseelah, asking from a created being for sons and rain and crops is not waseelah it is shirk.

Many people go to graves and think they doing waseelah wen really they doing shirk, they say Oh Ghaws give me a son, make my son a father, give us rain etc. This is NOT waseelah, it is called shirk. Waseelah is permitted.

i dont do, or believe in the above
waseelah, to ask ALLAH through or for the sake of the prophet/auliya

NOT asking the prophet or any human....but asking Allah...

that is what refer to as waseela...and this hamdulillah the view of the classical scholars of Islam.

"Muslimbrother1" wrote:

Brother , if what u say is true then i would not have a problem getting along with u. I myself am not a deobandi because ive never been taught in a deobandi madrassah and im not a brelwi. U have the same opinion as me when you say there is little point in discussing issues such as Hazir/nazir which noone but Allah truly knows about.

But if there is anyone i have a problem with, it is extremist brelwis who cause divisions between muslims with false accusations.

Allah Hu Alaam
and apologies if i caused any offence

I read: everynthing is ggood and all. But you know those brelwi's, they are so and so... **** and **** and ****.

As always it should be you hate narrow mindedness and a lack of tolerance.

somebody, not me, mentioned hazir nazir issue. If ppl arent bothered abt that then I think there is something seriusly rong in their imaan, the issue of hazir nazir is an issue which divides between tawheed and shirk.

Alhamdulillah the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah have made this issue clear.

yes they have.

We cannot limit the power of Allah (swt). Thus if we say that he could not have given the power to the Prophet (saw), we are saying that god is not all powerful.

Allah (swt) is all powerful. (to the extent of our understandings; our understanding can be weak, as we are not all-understanding... things can be above our station.)

At the same time, we cannot say wether the Prophet has or has not been granted a power by Allah (swt).

while I see a diference of opinion here, I do not see any hint of possible shirk.

The argument is over what powers were granted to the prophet by Allah (swt). As such it is implicit that there is no association, the the prophet and god are two separate entities. One is the creator, the other is the created.

"muslim_kuri" wrote:

"Muslimbrother1" wrote:

Shouting ALLAH ALLAH with the lights turned off calling it zikr lol?

wel dat iz zikr...

remembering Allah Almighty iz zikr....doesnt matter how u do it

God said that u can do zikr standing, lying sitting etc

yet some people like to put conditions on sumin that even God never put conditions on

I guess they think they know beter :roll:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"muslim_kuri" wrote:

"Muslimbrother1" wrote:

[b]Shouting[/b] ALLAH ALLAH with the lights turned off calling it zikr lol?

wel dat iz zikr...

remembering Allah Almighty iz zikr....doesnt matter how u do it

God said that u can do zikr standing, lying sitting etc

yet some people like to put conditions on sumin that even God never put conditions on

I guess they think they know beter :roll:

no doubt lilsis but..
since when did shouting become zikr...i didnt know people did zikr by shouting lol das funny

"naj" wrote:

since when did shouting become zikr...i didnt know people did zikr by shouting lol das funny

And since when is there a condition on how loudly or softly one must recite the names of Allah (swt)?

And to those, how have an issue with “movement” (i.e. standing/sitting) when doing Dhikr…movement also takes place in Salaah…standing/sitting/bowing etc

It’s wrong to place conditions on what Allah (swt) has not placed conditions on.

Btw I fail to see the humour in Dhikr...whats so funny about it?

"naj" wrote:

since when did shouting become zikr...i didnt know people did zikr by shouting lol das funny

There is diff. forms of Zikr, one you can do silently and the other out loud, when ppl do zikr they get so lost into that they dont knw what is happening around them or how loud they are "shoutin" Allah's name.

your funny

i did not mention anything to do with loud or silent zikr, or any such condition

what i was on about was SHOUTING zikr, never knew there was such
thing happening, SO found it humourous..

You have an interesting sense of humour.

I assume that “loud” Dhikr can be seen by some as being “shouting” dhikr.

well yes maybe to some...

but theres a BIG difference between shouting and loud zikr, how ppl manage to get confused between the 2 i dont know., but its 2 different things IMO.

"naj" wrote:

well yes maybe to some...

but theres a BIG difference between shouting and loud zikr, how ppl manage to get confused between the 2 i dont know., but its 2 different things IMO.

Have u ever sat in a zikr gathering? Have u ever felt the intensity of readin Allah's name and feeling soo ashamed of your sins but yet wanting to get closer to Allah (swt)? if you haven't then please refrain from givin your views as to what zikr is applicable and which isn't.

When you get into the zikr then you have no control of doin zikr "loudly" or "shouting" it out.

"naj" wrote:

but theres a BIG difference between shouting and loud zikr, how ppl manage to get confused between the 2 i dont know., but its 2 different things IMO.

This is very immature of me but according to the Cambridge dictionary….

Shout (USE LOUD VOICE)
verb

1 to speak with a very [b]loud[/b] voice, often as loud as possible, usually when you want to make yourself heard in noisy situations, or when the person you are talking to is a long way away or cannot hear very well:

2 to express strong emotions, such as anger, fear or excitement, or to express strong opinions, in a [b]loud[/b] voice:

[url=http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=73168&dict=CALD]Link[/url]

"MuslimSister" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

but theres a BIG difference between shouting and loud zikr, how ppl manage to get confused between the 2 i dont know., but its 2 different things IMO.

This is very immature of me but according to the Cambridge dictionary….

Shout (USE LOUD VOICE)
verb

1 to speak with a very [b]loud[/b] voice, often as loud as possible, usually when you want to make yourself heard in noisy situations, or when the person you are talking to is a long way away or cannot hear very well:

2 to express strong emotions, such as anger, fear or excitement, or to express strong opinions, in a [b]loud[/b] voice:

[url=http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=73168&dict=CALD]Link[/url]

lol yep, shouting and speaking loudly same thing

ok

i know what i mean.

u causing a fuss over nawt,

"naj" wrote:

ok

i know what i mean.

u causing a fuss over nawt,

Did you hear a scholar trying to diss sufis in a humurous way once?

theres a saying (possibly hadith...will find out if any1 wants 2 knw)...... but it says you should do dhikr in such a way that if someone was to be passing by, he would think you were a mad man

to be truly lost in rememberance of your Lord, is something that doesnt happen to many

Allah SWT says, remember me, and I will remember you

the one who remembers Allah SWT once, Allah SWT remembers him 70 times more........or was it rememberance in a gathering (dhikr) and then He remembers him in a gathering 70 times greater? lol...u knw what i mean

dhikr purifies the heart and is the food for the heart

everything has a polish - clothes can be polished, your car can be polished, your shoes can be polished ..........the polish for the sould is Dhikr

a person who does Dhikr amogst people who dont, is like a fruitful tree amongst dry dead roots

"Darth V-Hayder" wrote:

theres a saying (possibly hadith...will find out if any1 wants 2 knw)...... but it says you should do dhikr in such a way that if someone was to be passing by, he would think you were a mad man

its a Hadith, dunno the reference to it but it is a Hadith

as usual, some1 makes a perfectly innocent comment and narrowminded people cant take a different view and jump on the dissenting voice.

when are we gonna learn?

"Med" wrote:

as usual, some1 makes a perfectly innocent comment and narrowminded people cant take a different view and jump on the dissenting voice.

when are we gonna learn?

So doing zikr (ie remebering Allah (swt) has suddenly become funny? sorry i fail to see the humour in doing Zikr of Allah (swt)

No one jumped at Naj, i was simply clarifying as it is somethin i pracice and i have the right to defend it.

who said dhikr is funny? We do dhikr with our Ustaadji, nothing to do with laughing, least not in our madrassah.

Alhamdulillah.

"Med" wrote:

as usual, some1 makes a perfectly innocent comment and narrowminded people cant take a different view and jump on the dissenting voice.

when are we gonna learn?

as usual Med seems to miss the point
as usual Med has to accuse people of being 'narrowminded'

the question is Med, when are you gonna learn?

hmmmm What was I saying abt narrowminded?

as usual this and that, im the usual suspect.

I havent said anything abt loud dhikr, so those accusers should check what I write before laying slanders at my door, but alhamdulillah Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah have made this issue clear for us.

The dude who bought it up was saying can you believe that some people (I believe he likes the term brellos presumably because of his high respect for Imam Raza Khan RA and so tries to lighten the term deobandis labelled his RA followers with.) shout whilst doing zhikr?

Now whilst the common reaction is he's taking the mick, I'm gonna choose to believe until otherwise informed that he was actually saying can you believe these cool people withhold nothing in their pleaing for their lord, SubhanAllah T'ala?

maybe its a lil optamistic to assume he was suggesting we embrace this form of Dhikr too, but optamism is good, to quote arnold swartchnegger lastnight (T3) : "relax..[size=18]RELAX[/size]!"

"Med" wrote:

hmmmm What was I saying abt narrowminded?

as usual this and that, im the usual suspect.

I havent said anything abt loud dhikr, so those accusers should check what I write before laying slanders at my door, but alhamdulillah Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah have made this issue clear for us.

No you came to naj's defence sayin we were narrowminded, no one jumped at her, muslimsis answered in regards to her post (and as always in a polite manner) i answered her post but didnt do so in a "narrow-minded" way (whatever that is i am sure u r all too familiar with it)

Naj found it funny when ppl do zikr by "shoutin"(thats what i was trying to clear up) so really no one was sayin anythin to you, read all the posts and then come to defend ppl!

Salam

for those of you who haven't heard about loud zikr (or as some ppl consider it 'SHOUTING') there is evidence from a hadith:

Hazrat Abdullah bin Umar (RA) narrated:

"That when I was a child, after the morning prayer I could hear the voices of the companions while they were doing zikr."

So from this hadith it is clear cut if someone is doing dhikr in a mosque and if they are doing it silently then how can someone possibly hear the sound of the zikr in ones house? So from this hadith its clear cut that there is such a thing as loud zikr in Islam (and no its not an innovation!)

so one should not assume that just because they have no knowledge of something that it does not exist in Islam.

did anyone mention doing loud zikr is wrong?

yes we ALL know it is permissable,

to some loud zikr maybe categorised in shouting

but for others like me doing LOUD zikr and such like SHOUTING zikr do not fall under the same category,

noone said loud zikr does not exist in religion but SHOUTING zikr?

end of..

"naj" wrote:

did anyone mention doing loud zikr is wrong?

yes we ALL know it is permissable,

to some loud zikr maybe categorised in shouting

but for others like me doing LOUD zikr and such like SHOUTING zikr do not fall under the same category,

noone said loud zikr does not exist in religion but SHOUTING zikr?

end of..

god! even after muslimsis kindly gave you the meanin of "loud"! :roll:

You dont do zikr so you dont know, end of!