i was just browsing net while i entered an anti muslim site that was criticizing muslikms open heartedly and to great extent were mocking.Naturally i replied to the webmaster and he attacked me with the following questions,though i have answered,but for your knowledge i am listing them:-
1....He claims that the Prophet (s.a.w) was racist by calling black people 'raisin heads.' (p. 182). "Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief." [Bukhari]
2...He Muhammad SAS worshipped the Black Stone in the Ka'bah (p. 189), although the Prophet (s.a.w) has never mentioned the worship of anything other then Allah.
3...Prophet Muhammad SAS has allowed muslim men to have sex with slave girls without marriage and after that they can even sell them.
4...Hazrat Aisha was married to Muhammad PBUH at the age of nine while Muhammad SAS was 53 years old.Is that any kind of justice??????
CAN U ANSWER????????????
Published by Ali II on 8 September, 2005 - 23:48
Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillahi ala kulli haal I can say that I can respond to each and every1 of those posts with such replies as to silence such people. Alhamdulillah this is due to the teaching of the Teachers.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
uh... well...
Don't get too worked up about it. These people live for angry responses. There was a guy http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm who I emailed about a year ago basically yelling at him for his extreme (sometimes perverse) disrespect against my religion.
Didn't lead anywhere... these people are naturally angry... obsessed... just not pleasant people.
Ignore em.
Yes I can answer!!!!!!!!!!!!
So can most others!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As can you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its not normally worth it debating these idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
calm down Admin saab :roll:
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
ignore em..they just seek attention
where are your !!!!!!!!!!! or ???????????? ?
you know........................
just to dramatise..............
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
drama queen :roll:
wat happened to my job!! :x
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Salaam.
I have no idea why I didn't ask before but I was just wondering, Dave do you believe in the Trinity?
Also seeing as i'm asking you questions, (can you tell this is not just off the top of my head? ack that tiger taught me a few tricks
) what is credit card Christianity?
Do you guys really believe a giant spider is leading the Catholic church somewhere in the Vatican?
Also don't be so eager to knock the liberals, I used to be one you know.
Also why does milk taste sooo nice when its cool and creamy, honestly if you buy the blue top stuff, you can actually SMELL the creaminess, like a beautiful beauquet of celestial lillies, milk is so nice, no wonder MR T is so tough.
:shock: <<< sureely this should be stoned smiley?
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
LOL
Doody.....i told u to say no to crack
Credit Card Christianity? :shock: its a business? i thawt that was scientolgy!
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
He's pouncing!! I've been pounced!! Preprepared questions out of the blue with little or no warning!!
How tigerlike of you.
haha I think perhaps you found the other forum I post on?
I do not know if I am totally convinced of the trinity. I always took it for granted as the belief that there is a father son and holy spirit, that jesus is divine, and that there is one God - et cetera.
However recently (and of course you know this) I learned it's actually more of a model to make the above make sense. How three identities = one God.
It's a screwy model not really supported by scripture. It's largely about "God Material" and really goes way off on unsupported tangents. I am beginning to think 1. The God's divine nature is not meant to be known and ergo wasn't revealed to us, or 2. I am becomming a modalist (God is the Son on Earth, the Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit in us) which sort of treats the three identities as more of offices.
I dispute nothing told to me in the bible though.
On to the next Q
Credit Card Christianity is my loving term for a disease that is destroying fundamentalism and Christianity itself in America. It's this nonsense about not being too concerned about your "human imperfections" because God will forgive you anyway - so live it up!
Works great on a bumper sticker - but that's not Christianity.
It severely downplays repentence - specifically the part where you try to STOP SINNING. And it treats the crucifixion as a one time event that happened in roughly 42 ad and because of it every sin we have ever committed and ever will commit is forgiven.
It's ridiculous.
The spider's name is "Herman" and yes I do believe that. He has a computer and basically communicates with the outside word with it.
...not really sure what you mean lol. I dunno who "you guys" means but i'll take it as protestants and not sure what you mean by giant spider... but i'll take that as church hierarchy.
I certainly believe that the Pope and church hierarchy are demand too much authority that I do not see was given to them. I see the importance of a Christian community - but they micromanage, largely and historically for their own profit.
There's lots of good things about liberals. For example they make very good conservatives eventually (except the neocons).
Most of my experiences with liberals are not good... they are intellectually arrogant, often hate religion, and sneaky.
Of course I have a lot of liberal positions wrt to civil rights and the environment - I hate their politics though.
YOU'RE RIGHT! I love milk. The Blue Stuff you refer to MUST be 2%.
It's a perfect number really... not as sickeningly creamy and half and half, not as watery and drab as skim.
Peeerfect.
:shock: Definitely should be the stoned face.
Dave, since you are being questiones...i thought i'll ask you one aswell....
you're an educated chap....you've been on this forum for a while now....so let me ask you:
WHAT ASPECTS OF ISLAM DO YOU AGREE AND DISAGREE WITH?
IS THERE ANY ASPECTS OF ISLAM THAT YOU CAN'T STAND?
I TAKE IT YOU DONT BELIEVE THAT THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD?
OR THAT pROPHET MUHAMMAD IS A TRUE AND FINAL PROPHET OF GOD?
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO MUSLIMS WHO SAY THAT BIBLE IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD BUT IS FABRICATED AND HAS BEEN CORRUPTED?
it would be interesting to see where you stand on these points...if you dont want to get involved in such a discussion, that is absolutely fine aswell.
lol very good then.
My disagreements with Islam rest almost solely with doctrine. The rejection of the trinity I can sympathise with since there is little to no scripture that endorses the model (except romans 1:20) however the rejection of the divinity of Christ, the rejection of Christianity's belief in the Oneness of God, and the rejection of the relationship of the father and son I certain cannot interpret in any other way than heresy since the bible is quite clear on those points.
Islam also has a different understanding of the nature of humanity. It presupposes that humanity naturally is struggling with God, and thus must submit (thus the reason it is called islam).
That I also disagree with.
Equally important I disagree with the emphasis placed on Muhammad and Muhammad's teaching. While Christians place heavy emphasis on Christ's teachings because of his divinity - no prophet has ever stated - nor has God indicated a "favorite" one to be considered above all. It often appears to me that the other prophets - Jesus especially, are taken on a pick and choose basis. If their teachings conform to Muhammad's they are used to backup that teaching, if they are not in conformity they are forgotten or simply abrogated. - Again abrogation is different in Christianity since God sets his own rules ergo Jesus may abrogate whatever he wishes.
Above all I think Islam was a big step backward. I do not mean this the way you normally hear it. I think Muhammad - if not a false prophet - was certainly a teacher interested in trying to reform the Christian direction to bring it back to it's judaic roots. Thus much of the emphasis on absolute nonviolence, sacrifice for others, and above all the forgiveness of sin (through christ) is downplayed in favor of the legalistic Mosaic emphasis on a less loving - and more jealous God.
Thus the reemergence of capital punishment et cetera which was strictly condemned by Jesus in scripture. For example Jesus singled out stoning in a parable against an adulterer - this we understand to be a teaching against (among other things) all corporal punishment given by humans. I understand that Muhammad not only reemphasised stoning for adulterers but ordered it personally.
Is there any aspect of Islam I cannot stand....
I would say that above all I cannot stand the Hadith's. Many of them I find quite shocking and there is little consensus on whether all of them are legitimate or only some. This is extremely frustrating to me because unlike the "Acts of the Apostles" I cannot really get a clear idea of Muhammad the man - who seems to me a bit of a complicated character that balances very often on immorality with respect to his personal life and with respect to his conduct as chief of state and general.
When an outsider attempts to understand these issues they are met with conflicting answers from the hadith's and even more conflicting answers from muslims attempting to explain or interpret those Hadiths.
I also cannot stand muslims understanding - and use - of Jesus Christ. While claiming to respect him is all well and good - and certainly I think they do - rejecting his divinity and abrogating many of his teachings to me make the latter a moot point. From a Christian perspective that is essentially saying "God isn't God but he's a pretty decent guy" I would much prefer it if muslims simply left the entire topic of Jesus alone rather than integrating him into their religion. It also has been a danger in creating a mindset among muslims that they are a continuation of the Christian line - which Christians do not endorse. At times it does feel like muslims are attempting to build on top of us - not particularly comfortable.
Next Question:
I do not believe the Quran is the word of God. I believe there are many important and noble lessons the Quran teaches - but only insofar as they conform to Christian doctrine. Much like how you see the bible - I see the Quran.
I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet, I believe he was attempting to reform Christianity so that it was in more proper agreement with OT Judaism. I see those as his religious goals. Outside his self proclaimed prophethood I believe he was a complicated man.
Next Question:
I would say muslims have a strong point when they contend that things were changed from one translation to the next - however that is as far as I would concur. We do not and have never believed the bible is the word of God - as muslims believe the Quran is. We believe the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit - thus we say that the bible was [i]inspired[/i] by God. I believe challenging the bible's legitimacy by muslims is a logical falacy.
The argument goes something like this:
C Jesus is the Son of God - Mathew 17:5 says so!
M Ah, but that was a corruption in the bible and cannot be believed!
C But how could you prove such a thing is not the word of God?
M Because the Quran says so!
C Ah, but the Quran is the corruption of a false prophet Jesus warned of! Mat.7:15-20
C And furthermore we are told to keep to what is written! 1 Cor.4:6
M Yes - but those are fabrications as well - so says the Quran!
In order for those arguments to be valid - the Quran must be as well. Whether the Quran is valid or not (for the sake of argument) depends on who believes it, it's a matter of faith.
Thus I consider the argument - when used as an argument a copout. Using a conclusion to justify itself. Ultimately they are saying - do not believe what the bible says, believe what the Quran says so that you can believe what the Quran says.
A lot of muslims attempt to justify the Quran from the objective perspective that it is "perfect" and that is somehow obvious. Unfortunately I have never quite understood what they mean by this... are there very few spelling mistakes? Is it grammatically impressive? I have heard interesting things like there is a poetic resonance to it or that there are numerical oddities about it - but how does that make it perfect? Again, I think that is another article of faith disguised as logical argument to justify the Quran and it's rejection of the divinity of Christ.
And I believe that pretty much covers that.
I certainly hope my positions on those points aren't terribly shocking - if I believed otherwise I would probably be a muslim by now.
very inetersting read.....no im not shocked....
you have every right to disagree with Islam and vice versa.
You have mentioned many points there....what i will do, if its ok with you, is pick on one point and then take it from there?
how about starting with the main issue of Jesus, his status in Islam...?
Well I do not fully understand exactly what you intend to do... address whichever points I made at your leasure and make any additional points you wish to make.
I do not like interreligious debates, I do hope that is not your intended direction.
Bare in mind that I do believe there is much wisdom in the Quran - especially Sura 109.
However I will indulge you all the same if that's what you want to do.
well if you dont like inter-religious debates then I will leave it then.
I just wanted to try to give you the reasoning, logic and evidence for what we believe and why.... and try to answer some of your questions..but you're right that will lead to a debate.
OK , let me ask you this: have you spoke to an Islamic scholar on the issues you have mentioned about Islam?
lol I am not a sensitive creature. You can debate or discuss whatever you like.
I have talked to Islamic scholars about Islam. I use them only to clarify issues of islamic beliefs rather than have them compare to christianity (as they very often like to) however I have still found their answers unsatisfactory. Naturally it all depends on whether you take the Qur'an as it asks you to take it - which is still an article of faith.
As for the life of Muhammad - which generally muslims and muslims scholars (although to a lesser extent) seem a bit defensive about - I generally am less interested although again the answers there are unsatisfactory.
A lot of "well this was acceptable for the times" or "there were other circumstances which had to be considered" the sort of exceptionalism I get from the scholars I have talked with seem like they are more dodging a question they do not know how to answer rather than giving me a response they can truly stand firmly behind.
Let me ask you something, -
Do you believe the Qur'an is the revelation of God because of the number 19 and Rashad Khalifa's formula? Or is that some interesting discovery that never went into your decision that it is the word of God?
that's got nothing to do with it, thats not th ereason why Muslims believe it to be the word of God.
1, Muslims believe it to be the word of God because that is what makes you a Muslim and believe what you believe.
2. Also the quran in the form of a book that existed in the time of the caliphs can still be found today in turkey and uzbeksitan in its exact form, no change whatsoever. This highlights that the Quran has not been changed at all over the last 1400 years.
3. The Muslims of today have no doubt in the Quran being word of God because it contains hundreds of scientific miracles which modern scientists have only discovered early in teh 20th century. This proves that these discoveries/ miracles can only be known by the Creator of teh universe as this knowledge was not known 1400 years ago when there were no labarotories, microscopes or scientific advancements. Which means the Quran is definitely from God and not man.
I will give you an examples:
[u]
Creation of man[/u]
[b]'We created man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest. Then we made the drop into a leech-like structure. Then of that leech-like structure we made a chewed lump. Then we made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh.' (23:12-14)[/b]
The above is the detailed and accurate description of the stages of the creation of man in the womb of the mother. This is proven and supported by the latest modern scientific evidence and corroborated by the highest authorities in the field of embryology. This is one of the greatest proofs that the Quran is the word of God.
[b]Dr. Keith Moore,[/b] one of the world's most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and professor of anatomy at Toronto University in Canada states:
[b]'It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.' He was then asked: '..Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?' He replied '..I find no difficulty in accepting this.'[/b]
This statement like many many others prove that the Quran is the word of God, Muhammad (pbuh) is His messenger and Islam is the only true faith.
I hope that answers your question.
It certainly answers the question I had in mind.
Let me ask you another question - does your personal belief the qur'an is the word of God stem from experts telling you it is?
Or is it nearly entirely a personal investment.
To the point.
You do not believe the Quran is the word of God because of natural phenomena like the number 19 or embryology (you said yourself this is only confirmation to muslims, it removes all doubt).
Why, then, are these acceptable answers to a nonmuslim?
I highly doubt that you did not believe in the Qur'an before you were told of these discoveries. They merely reinforce for you what you already knew right?
And what about the 1400 years of muslims who believed without this evidence you provide in 3. Did they believe less so?
The first two answers you supply seem to more acurately address the issue of why you believe (and not confirm) the quran is the word of God. That is the origin of the belief.
Would you mind exploring them a little closer?
I recently asked somebody on the forum what islam meant to them.
I chose to ask in that way because it did not overtly imply I needed some type of evidence for why they believed what they believed.
I explained the impetus for the question came from reading al-fatihah and an explanation from the translator. In short they knew I was asking about Islam and the Qur'an.
Indeed, they did give me evidence - exactly the kind of answer I think is more what I have been attempting to extract from Imams and webmasters for a very long time:
"....Islam is a way of life to me
a feeling
an assurance that God is watching me and looking after me-wanting good stuff for me
protecting me
keeping me safe in this evil world
a sort of contract that if I listen to God-he'll listen to me
e.g if I obey him he'll answer my prayers
a guidline-how to live my life "
That is not empirical - that is the base reason. I see nothing in there about embryology or seeing "allah" written on trees.
Why don't muslims always respond like this when a nonbeliever asks?
both.
Its my personal beliefs, i have read it , studied it with scholars, read books on it, discussed it with others...and my conclusion is that it is a true and divine book from God.
The scientific proofs confirms and proves it further to me that it definitely is the word of God, and the fact that many scientists including Dr Kieth Moore, Maurice Bucaille etc have embraced Islam because of the scientyific proofs, this tells me that they understand that this book HAS to be from God.
Also when you see Islam is the fastest growing in the world today mainly due to conversions...the main reason why people become Muslims is because of the Quran..they are convinced with out a shadow of a doubt that it is the word of God...and these people normally accept Islam after they have studied and expermineted with faiths .
So I have satisfaction and strong faith that the Quran is word of God.
Okay let me pursue a hypothetical.
Would it change your mind at all about islam if it turned out Dr. Keith Moore never converted to islam and remained a Christian?
Or if his research were actually done under Saudi employ?
At that point would your belief in the Qur'an and Islam be so shaken that you should walk home doubting everything?
Or would that simply be a disappointing sidenote worth pursuing the validity of but not really disturbing you all that much?
What came first - the personal investment or the scientific corroboration?
yes i agree with your post...
you see one is giving a personal reason... and one is giving evidence to one who states the Quran is NOT word of God.
the scientific element is proof, the points you posted above from another Muslim is personal reasonings, which are enough for a Muslim but not for a non Muslim..especially the type who require evidence and ridicule Muslims.(i'm not referring to you here, by the way)
lol perhaps I am wrong-headed but I find the proof of religion almost entirely in the personal reasons.
There are three types of Questions:
Questions about the World (Empirical)
Questions about formal systems (rules of logic)
and Questions about values and morality
As near as I can determine there are only four sources of knowledge
Authority
Revealed Truth
Reasoning
and Observation
Authority and Observation work well to answer empirical questions.
Formal systems almost always rely on reasoning as well as the other two.
Questions of Values and Morality we know less about - they are harder for us to answer. We have no formula like the quadratic equation, reasoning is somewhat limited and observation will only help when we know what to look for.
Revealed truth and authority are the only devices we really have.
Thus I have always placed a high emphasis on revealed truth especially - that which people "just know" it seems to me more fit to even begin to try to answer these very hard questions.
And yet for some reason religious scholars only want to give me observational data or mathematic formulas.
Probably because we have more success with them in other fields (like science) and they know they carry more weight... but I still think they lack too much to answer the question.
It's like asking "Is it more moral to remove everybody from New Orleans now at the risk of spreading an infection elsewhere, or leave them there until we are sure we can contain the infection at the risk of losing more people in NO"
And being given the response:
Until we are sure we can contain the infection, we must leave them in New Orleans to maximize the amount of lives saved.
That's a fabulous answer - but it didn't answer the question. The question was whether it was more moral, not how many people would be saved. The answer presupposes that more lives saved is more moral - leaving out all kinds of moral objections regarding the quality of life of the people inside et cetera - too many variables for a formula.
Only when I can take away the fear of ridicule - can I tease out that kind of response from any religious person.
you see the main issue here is faith... like you have faith in the Bible..Muslims have faith in the Quran, that it is from God....
scientific proof isnt the[b] reason [/b]why muslims believe quran is word of GOd- they believe in it anyway thats why they are Muslims. scientific proof just confirms it more and is useful when discussing with haters of Islam.
so if Dr kieth moore didnt embrace islam etc that wouldnt make a difference at all. We believe in the quran as word of god because it has come through the prophet and has been explained and taught by companions, ands a thousand years of the most high calibre Muslim scholars....who have collaborated thousands of books on it steachings, vakues, benefits by highlighting the beauty of Islam.
Their explanation and understanding of the Quran gives you answers to the questions of life, purpose of life, life after death, way to live your life, belief in divinity and the teachings of Islam through the quran and sunnah gives you that personal satisfaction that this is the best way to live your life.
just on the scientific proofs:
[b]Does it not prove to you that the Quran is word of God? How could the Quran contain hundreds of scientific staements which were only discovered in the 20th century?[/b]
Very good! So when I ask why muslims believe the Quran is the word of God - why am I almost never given the reason MUSLIMS believe it - not the reason I as a kaffir [i]should[/i] believe it?
Another question.
Muslims often say islam is beautiful - what does that mean?
No it does not.
Why should it?
If you yourselves do not believe the Qur'an is the word of God for the reason that there are scientific statements in it why should I?
Fine, a child's development is described in the Qur'an - does that bring me a step closer to God? Does that reveal the right and true path? Is my personal belief in God somehow strengthened?
What is that really doing for my religious beliefs? Does the addition of empirical truths somehow make the religious truths of the Quran more valid?
I do not believe so.
it means its teachings are beautiful, its a peaceful religion, its a complete way of life, it gives answers and solutions to mans lifes and problems, it tells you how to deal with almost everything, it gives you a practical code of life of how to mearry, divorce, bring up children, set up a business, control your anger, treat your women, elders, young ones, it tell show to deal with non muslims...and to me that is beautiful.
When Islam tells you to kill one person is like killing th ewhole mankind, that is beautiful
when it says to save one life its like you have save dthe whole mankind- that is beautiful
when it tells you the best man amongst you is one who i sbest to his wife- that is beautiful
when it says under an silamic state you cant harm or even touch the dhimmi- non muslims who pay th etax- tey can build churches, temples, do whatever they want- that is beautifull.
when islam says paradise is under the feet of your mother, that is beautiful.
i can go on and on...
the point is that Muslims feel islam is beautiful becasue it is simple, gives you clear guidelines on how to live a good, peaceful and succesful life.
So I assume all of those things are working for you. You were told how to live your life with this all-encompassing religion, and the result you find to be "beautiful"
Is that why you believe the Qur'an is the word of God? - Is that your "Reason"
Personal experience?
ok so if those scientific beliefs in the quran did not come from God , then where did they come from? Definitely not Muhammad because that information was not available at that time....
there is no other explanation as to where this information came from but from God?
i said that is not the main reason why i believe quran to be word of God but it CONFIRMS that the Quran is word of God...if you know what I mean.
And its not just about the creation of universe, it salmost every scientifc branch.
the scientiffic information proves that there is a creator because ONLY the Creator of the Universe would have that information 1400 years ago in the deserts of Arabia.
have i not answered this already?
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