Lilly wrote:

and what books are we talking about that have mistakes? books we buy in bookshops or??

both.

Ya'qub wrote:

Is it really that compulsory for us to strive 2 become hafiz?
Or is understanding & implementing it's teachings more important?

It doesnt have to be an either/or situation does it?

I think that as a parent, its their duty to teach their kids Quran or take them to places where they can be taught and once you start, why stop?

bilan wrote:

Ya'qub wrote:

Is it really that compulsory for us to strive 2 become hafiz?
Or is understanding & implementing it's teachings more important?

It doesnt have to be an either/or situation does it?

I think that as a parent, its their duty to teach their kids Quran or take them to places where they can be taught and once you start, why stop?

yeah but the meaning is more important than just the words (even though the words hold power which we might not understand).

Being hafiz wouldn't count for much if you lived an evil life at odds with what the Qur'an tell us.

Ya'qub wrote:

bilan wrote:

Ya'qub wrote:

Is it really that compulsory for us to strive 2 become hafiz?
Or is understanding & implementing it's teachings more important?

It doesnt have to be an either/or situation does it?

I think that as a parent, its their duty to teach their kids Quran or take them to places where they can be taught and once you start, why stop?

yeah but the meaning is more important than just the words (even though the words hold power which we might not understand).

Being hafiz wouldn't count for much if you lived an evil life at odds with what the Qur'an tell us.

In that case true.

Lilly wrote:

arabic for all MUSLIMS is an essential part. because the Quran is in arabic and translation can never do justice to the Quran. All the hadith are in arabic, inshaaAllah when you learn more about the religion you will inderstand the value of arabic. for me, i cant wait to be able to read and speak arabic fluently

If Arabic is so essential then why are we not taught it at birth?
Our parent show off in Pakistan look my son can speak "walaiti"[British English] or US English then the kids in Pakistan try and copy it
they talk like this

jooo andar staand mee
me talk anlish like walaite munda

You sound very enthusiastic about learning Arabic please try and learn Urdu and Punjabi as well because Urdu holds the largest collection of works on Islamic literature and Sharia after Arabic. These include translations and interpretation of the Qur'an as well as commentary on Hadith, Fiqh, history,

The cat means business

Looks like it wants to eat me alive

What then if I bring you a better guidance than that you found your fathers following? But they reply: We disbelieve in that you have been sent with. So We took vengeance upon them, and see how the end was of those who lied

It's this kind of thing that got my family into Islam

where is the concept of being Rehman and Rahim in this?

lollywood wrote:

What then if I bring you a better guidance than that you found your fathers following? But they reply: We disbelieve in that you have been sent with. So We took vengeance upon them, and see how the end was of those who lied

It's this kind of thing that got my family into Islam

where is the concept of being Rehman and Rahim in this?

The concept of Rahman and Rahim is there to those who deserve it and Allah (swt) gives it to whom He wills and it is for NO ONE to question

I would advise you to word ur comments a lot differently, cos the above comment is so disrespectful of Allah (swt) tis unbelievable and I dont say that for my sake or anyone else's but urs cos YOU'll be held to account for them. (Sorry if i come across harsh, but since its in ur best interest, forgive us would ya?)

Lilly wrote:

arabic for all MUSLIMS is an essential part. because the Quran is in arabic and translation can never do justice to the Quran. All the hadith are in arabic, inshaaAllah when you learn more about the religion you will inderstand the value of arabic. for me, i cant wait to be able to read and speak arabic fluently

Amien

BTW, why might it be that in the last Census, the survey the UK government has everyone to fill in every 10 years, one was explicitly asked if one knew Arabic?

To make sure the message of the Koran is preserved learning Arabic is indeed essential.
This is how the message of the Koran is safeguarded: within those for whom the message was intended: the people. Well, at least those accepting it: Muslims.
An of course: Hadieth, Sunna and using your brain is important as well. Learning by heart suras is just a good starter.

Hear it from a scholar:
----------------------------------------------
Those who can in this speedy age of gaming and rushing still sit still for half and hour and listen can download an interview going under the title "The Islamic Intellectual Tradition" with the scholar Noura Shamma.

A quote from the interview:

"At the very least Muslims should learn Arabic to the level
they understand their prayers. At the least."

It is a very uplifting radio interview also advocating Muslims to travel more.

Available for download here: http://www.ezania.net/library/audio/the_islamic_intellectual_tra.htm

nomad wrote:

BTW, why might it be that in the last Census, the survey the UK government has everyone to fill in every 10 years, one was explicitly asked if one knew Arabic?

thats very misleading! they had lots of versions of the census in many languages, not just arabic and english. did it ask you to tick the boxes of the languages you spoke? its not like it said 'if you speak arabic, go to question 17' and then have follow-on questions about tajweed.

incidentally, did you know that arabic is the language used on containers of nuclear waste saying 'warning' because it is the language that is most likely to last the longest in its current form

The only Census paper I saw was in English. All 2011 Census papers, no matter what language they might have been in, were in essence and concerning content (questions asked) identical.

If I recall well one was indeed asked explicitly if one knew Arabic. A check box question.
Singled out from wanting to know about other languages known. That was rather odd to me.
No further questions were asked in that regard. Except maybe regarding ones religion but that was (a much contested) optional question. The one regarding knowledge of Arabic was not optional.

To my knowledge no other government, in the UK or abroad, has shown such a specific interest in acquiring knowledge about any particular language among a population surveyed. I wonder how that question can contribute to implement future policies that serve the UK population. That is what the government says these 10-year surveys (Census) are for, isn't it?

You also wrote:
"incidentally, did you know that arabic is the language used on containers of nuclear waste saying 'warning' because it is the language that is most likely to last the longest in its current form"

Regarding nuclear waste having Arabic on it to "preserve the message":
I would think a pictogram would be more effective then any message in any language.
Best of course would be to engage as least as possible in anything to do that creates nuclear waste.

nomad wrote:

To make sure the message of the Quran is preserved learning Arabic is indeed essential.
This is how the message of the Quran is safeguarded: within those for whom the message was intended: the people. Well, at least those accepting it: Muslims.
An of course: Hadieth, Sunna and using your brain is important as well. Learning by heart suras is just a good starter.

If we focus too much on Arabic then other languages are going to die out or not be spoken

Not all Muslims are Arab, most of our families are converts to Islam so therefore we would speak- read- write the language of our ancestors and we continue to teach it to our forth coming generations

As I said before its every Muslims wish that there son or daughter speaks English like a British person

In Pakistani villages the parents record the child swearing in English then they play it back to there relatives in Pakistan with pride saying listen my son and daughter is swearing in English look at how modern our children have become now since moving to England

lollywood wrote:

If we focus too much on Arabic then other languages are going to die out or not be spoken

I don't think that is going to be the case: most Muslim communities have preserved their own cultures and languages and still learnt Arabic in order to study Koran and other Arabic scriptures and scientific writings.

The Persians, like many other population groups who converted long time ago to Islam, still speak Farsi and on occasion Kurdish, Urdu and/or Punjabi and English too; The Malay still speak their language(s); Dutch converts still speak a number of languages after learning Arabic; Chinese Muslims learn Arabic and still use Madarine and/or their original language. Etc.

It is OK to study in whatever language about the Dien (Islam) but in the end the basic texts, and many most important related writings, are in the language Allah chose for good reasons for His final message: Arabic.

Sure, some languages are disappearing or get perverted in these times of Internet and cultural imperialism. That is even more a reason to study as Muslims Arabic. English (the language and maybe some of the culture mix too) one picks up along the road anyway.

nomad wrote:

I don't think that is going to be the case: most Muslim communities have preserved their own cultures and languages and still learnt Arabic in order to study Koran and other Arabic scriptures and scientific writings.

The Pakistanis don't know how to read or write in Arabic some cant even read or write in there own language

nomad wrote:

It is OK to study in whatever language about the Dien (Islam) but in the end the basic texts, and many most important related writings, are in the language Allah chose for good reasons for His final message: Arabic.

If you translate the Quran in other languages then people from other religions may want to convert after reading it and if you say that its only worth reading it in Arabic then that might discourage them from converting to Islam

nomad wrote:

Sure, some languages are disappearing or get perverted in these times of Internet and cultural imperialism. That is even more a reason to study as Muslims Arabic. English (the language and maybe some of the culture mix too) one picks up along the road anyway.

[/quote]

What if Arabic also gets mixed up

Long live Urdu and Punjabi

lollywood wrote:

nomad wrote:

I don't think that is going to be the case: most Muslim communities have preserved their own cultures and languages and still learnt Arabic in order to study Koran and other Arabic scriptures and scientific writings.

The Pakistanis don't know how to read or write in Arabic some cant even read or write in there own language
-----
We were talking the potential (rather hypothetical) fading out of languages if (only if) more people would all start to learn (e.g.) Arabic (or English or Urdu or whatever language to that regard).

Yes, of course literacy at least in one language is important.
---

nomad wrote:

It is OK to study in whatever language about the Dien (Islam) but in the end the basic texts, and many most important related writings, are in the language Allah chose for good reasons for His final message: Arabic.

If you translate the Quran in other languages then people from other religions may want to convert after reading it and if you say that its only worth reading it in Arabic then that might discourage them from converting to Islam
---
I have never said the Koran is only worth reading in Arabic. My point is that if one really want to understand the meaning well; if one really want to avoid as much as possible maybe rather odd translations; then it is paramount to study Arabic; even as a modern day Arab.
I witness reading the Koran in an other language then Arabic can contribute that someone converts to Islam.

nomad wrote:

Sure, some languages are disappearing or get perverted in these times of Internet and cultural imperialism. That is even more a reason to study as Muslims Arabic. English (the language and maybe some of the culture mix too) one picks up along the road anyway.

What if Arabic also gets mixed up
---
Ah, you seem to get my point: the need to study Arabic. That's more then just learn to read it without understanding the meaning.

---
Long live Urdu and Punjabi[/quote]
---

Why Urdu first and only then Punjabi?

nomad wrote:

We were talking the potential (rather hypothetical) fading out of languages if (only if) more people would all start to learn (e.g.) Arabic (or English or Urdu or whatever language to that regard).

Its happening in the UK and Europe now I know children that can't speak there mother tough
some people may not be able learn two languages

nomad wrote:

Yes, of course literacy at least in one language is important.
Its happening in the UK and Europe now

That should be English becauae its an international language
We have lost the Punjabi Shahmukhi script already in the sense that not many people can read or write it because it was not meant for that language

nomad wrote:

I have never said the Koran is only worth reading in Arabic. My point is that if one really want to understand the meaning well; if one really want to avoid as much as possible maybe rather odd translations; then it is paramount to study Arabic; even as a modern day Arab.
I witness reading the Koran in an other language then Arabic can contribute that someone converts to Islam.

Why can't one understand the meaning well in another language?

nomad wrote:

Sure, some languages are disappearing or get perverted in these times of Internet and cultural imperialism. That is even more a reason to study as Muslims Arabic. English (the language and maybe some of the culture mix too) one picks up along the road anyway.

[/quote]

That's because most people want to learn English and then any other language

lollywood wrote:

nomad wrote:

We were talking the potential (rather hypothetical) fading out of languages if (only if) more people would all start to learn (e.g.) Arabic (or English or Urdu or whatever language to that regard).

Its happening in the UK and Europe now I know children that can't speak there mother tough
some people may not be able learn two languages

Sounds like the days of the first industrial revolution: parents were working day and night in the factories, or dead or having abandoned their children with as a result some couldn't even speak decently.

Of course: not everyone is that good in learning languages. Among Muslims it might be more about creating the right circumstances in which there is an interest in learning even if the economic circumstances are harsh.

nomad wrote:

Yes, of course literacy at least in one language is important.
Its happening in the UK and Europe now

That should be English becauae its an international language
We have lost the Punjabi Shahmukhi script already in the sense that not many people can read or write it because it was not meant for that language

English is indeed one of the most international languages on the global forum.
Much more easy to learn, I have been told, then French. Six times more easy, experts say how to figure that out. Still French is the lingua franca in large parts of Canada and France.

Although I largely agree with your plea to learn English I wonder if that would be the case if you had lived in e.g. a French speaking territory or somewhere were Spanish is the main language.

English is important but that is only rather recent. German, a language with difficult grammar rules, used to be much more popular. Until Germany lost the war. But who knows how things evolve. The German economy is much stronger then the UK one...

With countries like Russia, India and China building up their economies English might in a hundred years have much of its appeal.

The language Allah chose for its last revelation was Arabic. That's why Arabic is so important for Muslims. And to re-connect with whatever was written in that language in the past and did not get looted during colonialism to end up in the dungeons of the British Library. Yes, a highly specialized kind of scientists does not chit chat about the importance of Arabic: orientalists. They know Arabic and study it with an often imperialist intention. Many of then do indeed speak English too.

nomad wrote:

I have never said the Koran is only worth reading in Arabic. My point is that if one really want to understand the meaning well; if one really want to avoid as much as possible maybe rather odd translations; then it is paramount to study Arabic; even as a modern day Arab.
I witness reading the Koran in an other language then Arabic can contribute that someone converts to Islam.

Why can't one understand the meaning well in another language?

This treat started about errors in the Koran. Spelling errors, which can especially in Arabic make the meaning of the word shift. Everyone who cares about preserving the message of Islam can be expected to do its utmost best to prevent that from happening.
It is Allah who has chosen Arabic for His message.

Yes, if one reads different translations of the Koran they are not the same as the original Arabic. Luckily some do know different languages and hence can play around with different translations of the Koran. Might sometimes be interesting for the capable intellectual but in the end comparing different translations is a bit of a silly mind game. Get to the source: Arabic. An all respect for those who only can read translations. Just know that if it pleases you you joy and understanding will be much more once you start to read and understand Arabic.

BTW, it is rewarded (by Allah) to read Koran. Even so is one rewarded for each letter of the Koran one learns by heart. The Koran is (in) Arabic. All the rest are (just) translations. Hopefully from a good source.

nomad wrote:

Sure, some languages are disappearing or get perverted in these times of Internet and cultural imperialism. That is even more a reason to study as Muslims Arabic. English (the language and maybe some of the culture mix too) one picks up along the road anyway.

That's because most people want to learn English and then any other language[/quote]

Most people learn their mother-tongue first. It is only for a small minority that this is English.

No one can force anyone to learn anything. Humans are free to learn, to argue, to do or don't anything he/she want. Every choice has its consequences.

nomad wrote:

Sounds like the days of the first industrial revolution: parents were working day and night in the factories, or dead or having abandoned their children with as a result some couldn't even speak decently.

Of course: not everyone is that good in learning languages. Among Muslims it might be more about creating the right circumstances in which there is an interest in learning even if the economic circumstances are harsh.

But don’t you think kids already have enough to learn they have school work and homework to do going to the Mosque after school now at Mosque what should they learn should they learn to speak Arabic or read Arabic?

All these different activates are going to effect there abilities to perform at there best in one of the things I have mentioned

nomad wrote:

I wonder if that would be the case if you had lived in e.g. a French speaking territory or somewhere were Spanish is the main language.

In that case it would be 2nd

nomad wrote:

English is important but that is only rather recent. German, a language with difficult grammar rules, used to be much more popular. Until Germany lost the war. But who knows how things evolve. The German economy is much stronger then the UK one...

With countries like Russia, India and China building up their economies English might in a hundred years have much of its appeal

I know many Indians who love to speak English but they can't do it properly so they settle with Hingalish a mixture of Hindi and Englsih put together

nomad wrote:

The language Allah chose for its last revelation was Arabic. That's why Arabic is so important for Muslims. And to re-connect with whatever was written in that language in the past and did not get looted during colonialism to end up in the dungeons of the British Library. Yes, a highly specialized kind of scientists does not chit chat about the importance of Arabic: orientalists. They know Arabic and study it with an often imperialist intention. Many of then do indeed speak English too.

Arabic is not that rich because it does not have the following letters which Urdu and Shahmukhi have taken from Hindi
پ ٹ ث چ ڈ گ
thats pe, tte, se, che, gaaf, noon ghunan

nomad]<br /> <strong>This thread started about errors in the Koran. Spelling errors, which can especially in Arabic make the meaning of the word shift. Everyone who cares about preserving the message of Islam can be expected to do its utmost best to prevent that from happening.<br /> It is Allah who has chosen Arabic for His message.</p> <p>Thats not the languages fault its the writers fault,spelling mistakes can happen in any language </p> <p>[quote=nomad wrote:

Yes, if one reads different translations of the Koran they are not the same as the original Arabic

Why

nomad wrote:

BTW, it is rewarded (by Allah) to read Koran. Even so is one rewarded for each letter of the Koran one learns by heart. The Koran is (in) Arabic. All the rest are (just) translations. Hopefully from a good source.

then I'll stick to alif for now

nomad wrote:

Most people learn their mother-tongue first. It is only for a small minority that this is English.

No one can force anyone to learn anything. Humans are free to learn, to argue, to do or don't anything he/she want. Every choice has its consequences.

Most people do learn their mother tongue first but then if they’re also learning another language as well then they may not pick one of them properly,

Example

In Punabi and English
What did you eat
Mein roti eat kitti ae x wrong

It should be
Mein roti khadi ae

someone in my family knew how to speak Punjabi but when they started learning English they totally forgot Punjabi