mush91 wrote:

ok i know this is soooo off topic but how do you get them little writing things at the bottom of your commentsand that
e.g your one says

“Everything has two ends and a middle. If you grab one end, the other will slant, but if you take the middle, both ends will balance. Stick to the balanced middle in all affairs.” Wahb bin Munabbih.

Yo! It's me, T.Don. I'

sorry i don't know what came over me, probably a lack of sleep or something.

haha lol yeah tooo right! you leave me alone now or like i might just change my signature to something evil
OH!!! check out my signature thing dudes
DAM DUDE! im to over excited over a signature lol

mush91 wrote:

yeah but think of it
little boy kids muight start carrying a handbag and it starts from that and by the time you know it they're wearing their sisters clothes and going out with their mates who carry balls and ermmm hats and ermmm i cant remember what poe has so i'll just say a gun!
ok showing homosexuality isnt good to show kids even if it isnt soooo big like sexual acts.
atleast wait for them to become older before exploiting them to that (older meaning 30)

so...the 30 olds should watch teletubies instead?

ermmmmm....haha ermmmm....what do i say to that?
i guess so

hey i resent that! we are not adorable! we're just coool lol
i know you agree with what i said though ini

so you dont mind gay people trying to act as if its ok in islam? :O

yeah i get you
and im just like you if they come to me
but never had that happen though. and what if they dont think its wrong and want to carry on? what then? i know we are no one to say anything but what are your views on that?

Ocean wrote:

If someone comes to me *admitting* that they are in the wrong then THERE I would help but otherwise I generally Live and let live.

You can't really help though can you?

The only action we can take is if people try to pretend that it is allowed in Islam, clear that misconception (or decide if we want to be around such people), otherwise, it is their choice.

I've read the article and listened to BBC5 show and completely disagree with the whole gay marriage in Islam idea. It's just against the whole meaning of Islam.

But some of the posts in this discussion have really angered me. The whole notion of homosexuality in Islam is just non existant in the current day, it's mostly unacknowledged that homosexuality might even exist. I'm talking from experience here, as from a young age (6- that I can remember) I have found myself attracted to men. I know homosexuality is wrong, but it's not something that I have chosen to become or that I can just switch off like that. My daily life is virtually hell for me. For somebody that hasn't ever been in my position to turn around and say it's a choice is insulting, yes it's a choice to indulge in homosexual acts but for someone like me who fights a constant daily battle, it's not a choice it's more of a curse. No-one knows how I feel, no-one knows the constant prayers i've made to change, no-one knows the tears i've cried when i've been alone. no-one knows how much I have wished myself dead and not to wake up the next day. Allah knows, but then again this is a test from Allah for me. But the difference with this test and the majority of the tests faced by followers of Islam is that there is no support from my brothers and sisters in Islam. They want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this problem is not bothering muslims. There is no support, compassion, a shoulder to cry on or an ear to listen. I haven't ever been able to speak about my dilemma and I don't think i'll ever be able to. All because the modern day muslims won't understand, they don't want to understand. They'll tell me it's wrong and expect me to just change it. But do they realise how many years of my life i've wished I would change?

What am I supposed to do apart from just put my faith in Allah, because if truth be told even that doesn't feel satisfactory. I'm expected to marry soon, what am I supposed to tell my parents? that i'm not ready to marry? that i don't ever think i'll feel ready for marriage? I can't commit myself to someone and live a lie to someone for the rest of my life. I can't have their love when I know I will never be able to return it. I know there's different kinds of love but. I can't live a lie but then again what am I supposed to do? Deprive myself of love, stay single all my life?
Please don't ever think that homosexuality is just a minor thing and can easily be changed, because it can't. You will never understand the true devestation felt unless you have been there. Muslims need to wake up and start helping their fellow brothers and sisters that are subjected to daily turmoil of their souls due to this 'curse'.

May Allah forgive me and you.

Marriage could dampen your desires or show you something more beautiful.

Before marriage, it is the same for all people - sex outside marriage is haraam, so that is not different from the resistance that someone not attracted to the same gender has to show. So why is it any worse for you?

and from the age of 6?

I wont pretend to offer solutions because I dont have any, but I wil comment on this bit:

Please don't ever think that homosexuality is just a minor thing and can easily be changed, because it can't.

Thinking that is making yourself weak. The first step of not being in control is giving it up.

You know that acting on those desires is wrong. The (greater) problem arises when people try to make it out as if acting on them is not wrong.

You wrote:

Marriage could dampen your desires or show you something more beautiful.

Before marriage, it is the same for all people - sex outside marriage is haraam, so that is not different from the resistance that someone not attracted to the same gender has to show. So why is it any worse for you?

and from the age of 6?

I wont pretend to offer solutions because I dont have any, but I wil comment on this bit:

Please don't ever think that homosexuality is just a minor thing and can easily be changed, because it can't.

Thinking that is making yourself weak. The first step of not being in control is giving it up.

You know that acting on those desires is wrong. The (greater) problem arises when people try to make it out as if acting on them is not wrong.

Wow YOU have all the answers don't YOU? I was honestly lost for words, i still don't know if i couod show any compassion. Not becasue i am heartless but because i just hate it so much.

Sorry if that makes me a **** but thats just the way I FEEL, maybe your right we don't have any choice about the way we FEEL, just maybe.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen

You wrote:

I wont pretend to offer solutions because I dont have any, but I wil comment on this bit:

Please don't ever think that homosexuality is just a minor thing and can easily be changed, because it can't.

Thinking that is making yourself weak. The first step of not being in control is giving it up.

easier said then done

Foysol89 wrote:

i still don't know if i couod show any compassion. Not becasue i am heartless but because i just hate it so much.

We should try hating the sin, not the sinner. Anyone agree? Although the anonymous poster ^ doesn't seem to have committed a sin and MashaAllah is trying to do his best to avoid it too. So theres nothing to hate.

...and he/they can't help how they feel(?)

P.S (@ Foysol) was the bit about Mr You having all the answers sarcastic? lol

Yes marriage could do what you mention, but that would only work if all homosexuality was about was a sexual relationship with a member of the same sex. That is not what homosexuality is. A relationship with another person gives so much more than just sex, yes you could argue that that would also be present in marriage to someone of the opposite sex, it's hard for me to describe why it's different. But it is. I would never be able to offer that to someone I marry, I wouldn't be able o give her my all. I would never be able to love like she might love me. Yes I wouldn't know unless I tried, but what if I did try and it didn't work out? WOuld I go on living like that, an unhappy life. Or would I divorce and potentially destroy a few years of a sisters life knowing that I had issues before we married? Would that be better living life single, without a partner to love?

Its attraction to a member of the opposite sex. The same with non-gays, yes lowering of the gaze will stop sin occuring, but the attraction to the same sex doesn't vanish.

I still stand by that comnment, and understand what you mean, but it's not about being weak. It's more about the wider aspect. I've been questioning my faith to the extreme, picking at my upbringing, did my father not show me enough love? did my mother show me too much? is that the cause? i've been having almost suicidal thoughts, depression, thinking about the future. It's not just being attracted to someone. There's more to that than being gay. The muslim world really needs to tackle this more strongly than burying their heads in the sand.

I'm not going to hold it against you. Maybe your just young and haven't seen the world enough to be able to show compassion to others problems, you are entitled to your opinions but maybe you need to overlook the sheer disgust of the action and think about how to tackle it. Maybe thats what the problem actually is? The brothers and sisters we look to to help us, are just so disgusted that they can't show compassion. But thanks abyway.

retromode wrote:

Yes I wouldn't know unless I tried, but what if I did try and it didn't work out? WOuld I go on living like that, an unhappy life. Or would I divorce and potentially destroy a few years of a sisters life knowing that I had issues before we married? Would that be better living life single, without a partner to love?

What does Islam actually recommend in such a situation? Is this an example of a time where marriage becomes haram or makruh? If so, how else is the problem meant to be fixed for the person actually having such thoughts and desires?

You're over thinking things and "love" and romance is rarely like it would be in a movie.

I am not suggesting that things will be easy, just that the version of events you are writing in there are a little fuzzy.

What would be wrong is not telling the girl that you have issues, as if you do get married, both should be aware of issues, but companionship is something that can be built.

As for burying heads in the sand, that can work both ways. Muslims may not be willing to accept that people can have such feelings in general, but such people also need to be willing to accept that while is it ahrd, they CAN control their feelings.

There is a concept in the qur'an of loving and hating things for the sake of God that is mentioned in the qur'an - hard of places to get to.

There is also hadith I think where it is mentioned that if someone falls in love (with a woman), but cannot act on it in a halaal way, and dies without having acted on it, that it is like a type of martyrdom. I am paraphrasing here, but not acting on the wrong urges is given quite a lot of importance and accomplishing the not acting is given a high status - one of a martyr.

I'm not suggesting things will be like in the movies, at the end of the day marriage is more or less commiting your all to a person, if I know I have these desires and they haven't gone to this day, so will it be right of me to inflict that on her? Will it be her bad luck she got married to a guy who is gay but is willing to lead a life as a straight person as much as possible? And as for telling before marriage, would somebody really accept to marry someone who's gay? Knowing that there's plenty of straight people out there? Would someone actually settle for second best? And live their life with doubts? I doubt it.
Yes it does work both ways, but where is the much needed support? I can't see anyway to control these feelings of attraction upwards men. Yes you can control sexual desire etc, but not general attraction.
This is a really complex issue and needs a much desired solution. But it's a hardship from Allah, and if he brought me to it, he will take me through it. I know that even if I can't find a concrete evidence of what I should do, in my religion, if doesn't mean I'm going to denounce it. I believe in Allah and always will, this is His will. I just need to accept it.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

P.S (@ Foysol) was the bit about Mr You having all the answers sarcastic? lol

hmmm maybe i will let everyone else figure that out for themselves :badgrin:

One reason there may not be much support from the Muslim community at large is because they dont want to be seen to legitimising it.

There are organisations that deal with such issues, but the main one tht comes up in Google's results seems to go way too far with a message of "be proud of it" which is an unislamic message IMO.

There is another website, which may or may not have an associated group, which seems to be on the correct side of the ideological discussion. Link - it seems pretty quiet right now and more focussing on the issue being raised in the media.

Talking about the media, anyone else think there is quite a bit of programming coming up on this issue currently? It is on the BBC with the top article and linked programmes, and there will be a movie or something on channel 4 next week on the same issue.

They also try to portray a message that "the dislike of homosexuality is not really from Islam" which is a very confusing message to put out.

Yes I can understand the threat of being seen legitimising such actions, but currently there seems to be a distinct lack of middle ground. I remember searching for homosexuality and islam a few years ago when I was trying to find answers, and all you could find was two extremes: it's ok to be gay and Muslim or its not and you will burn in hell. There was nothing to show that yes you might have these feelings, having them isn't your fault or a sin, and these are some of the ways which might help you become a better Muslim and stray from the associated sin. There are just a handful of these groups as such around today. Even then they don't have all the answers.

But then again, maybe people, like me, are just finding someone to blame for this. So it's easier just to point at the wider community and say there is no support. The thing is I can't even tell you what support etc I need, because I don't even know myself. What I need is answers which no one can give but Allah. It's just a blame game, find someone to blame and ease the pain.

I agree there does seem to be some sort of propaganda, it's like in this current world if your views don't agree with the accepted social norm your classed as backwards or living in the dark ages. Islam shouldn't be modified to suit our modern lifestyle. Our lifestyle should be modified to suit the Islamic way of life.

@retromode: i personally think you should ask an acutal shaykh. not the local mosque one that will condemn you and shun you. no, the ones that have more mercy and patience. email them, ask a question.

i was thinking...there are hmm...less girly girls..which..hmm..okay shut up Lills. what im trying to say, maybe identify what is it with girls you dont find attractive and what is it with guys you do. then work from there?

ok, i completely and utterly understand what you're saying about the "general attraction" thing. BUT i think (maybe) you could kid yourself into liking girls? ok, that sounds weird. what im saying is. stop telling yourself (if you can) "im gay, i have gay feelings" just stop saying it. just for the psychological side of things.

you're a rare case. a person who feels this way but also knows that it's wrong (i think you do, as you're trying to fight against it, sorry if you're not) most people wont look for support OR just say it's okay. hence a need for some support system was never needed. and as i said, maybe the common muslim isnt the best support you can get as we dont know enough about Islam etc.. so talking to a scholar might really be the best solution.

and yeah, what's the problem with telling your parents you're not ready for marriage?

just try and stop thinking that "this is how im going to feel for the rest of my life". i think this is where the despair is coming from. just, put your trust in God.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I have looked into that and looked at answers to others similar questions, but usually the answers are just to keep faith in Allah and pray for the better. And in a way I can kind I understand how that relates to this just being a test from Allah, as my faith is being tested to an extreme. One side I can just give in and on the other I can wait and trust Allah. And on several occasions I have found myself questioning my faith wondering wether to carry on or just give up, but allahumdalillah I am still going to battle on.

You mentioned less girly girls etc, I think you might be referring to what's known as a convenience marriage where a gay and lesbian get married, just to fulfil the social norm expected of them and continue to live with someone who understands the problem. It happens.
As for the psychological side, I see what you mean, but I've been struggling with this for the best part of my life and I think I'm at a point where I know just how much can be changed. I know that might sound unreasonable but that really is the case.

As for me being the minority, that really shows how much this problem needs highlighting. There are several people living the same daily hell. I know what you mean about the despair but it's really complicated to even begin to describe.

Have you ever read the Quran and the story of Prophet Lut (AS) whose people insisted on committing the sin of homosexuality and finally they were swalled by a big earthquake?
Brothers/sisters in faith, fellow human beings do not be lured by all kinds of politically correct theories some even claim to be scientic: wrong will never become right and right will never become wrong until the day of judgement!
Even in cases of hemaphrodites Islam has a solution: one needs to wait until the age of
puberty to decide: at that stage either the male hormones will dominate indicating the individual is a boy or the female hormones will dominate and the operation to remove the opposite superfluous sex carried out accordingly.

Have you ever thought that if (God forbid!) all human beings were to become homosexuals at one time the human specie would be extinct?

The value of a human being is his power to reflect and the empathy he has towards his/her fellow human beings. Without that we become animals, "donkeys with books on their backs" (quote from Quran).

Homosexuality is wrong and a big sin and it will remain so until the Day of Judgement. Accepting it or keeping silent about it is accepting that faslehood can become truth and that is fooling yourself. Whether the society you live in likes or not it is wrong.
What you should do is try to guide those people who think that they have no choice in their sexual orientation. "Iblis embelishes sin" (Quran) to make them acceptable to us.

All of us have a responsability of guidance: parents, schools, places of worship, work,television programmes (especially films). I have seen over the years how very slowly and subtely through films and popular TV series homesexuallity was engineered to into the story line to slowly make it acceptable to the public at large. This a conspiracy of the Devil.

May Allah SWT protect us all from the Devil and his disciples.

I like your conclusion Retromode. We should not compromise our belief because it does not fit current opinion. I remember once watching one of those chat shows. The guest was a woman in her late twenties who was a virgen and proclaiming that she wishes to remain virgen for her husband. The whole of the audience on the show was booing her and was against her. All kinds of words were used to degrade her: "backward", "old fashioned", "you are stupid you do not know what you are missing on", etc.
There wasn't a single person in the audience who supported that poor woman. She was the odd one out in a society were the right has become wrong and the wrong has become right. I felt sorry for her. What was interesting is the double standards of an audience that claims to be tolorant and supporters of so-called freedom of choice.

Retromode wrote:

I think I'm at a point where I know just how much can be changed. I know that might sound unreasonable but that really is the case.

it does sound unreasonable, sorry. but how can you know? i mean. you're not your own man. You need to completely TRUST Allah subhanahou wa ta'ala. and that means the possibility (Allah does what he wills) of you waking up tomorrow feeling attracted to girls.

and no, i didnt mean them lesbian/gay marriage to "conform to social norms" we're not here to conform to no norms except God's.

the link i posted has more than just "make duah and have faith" there was so many points mentionned (up to eight or more if recall correctly)

It might sound unreasonable, and yes its wrong, but technically I feel this is the whole part of Allah's test for me. It's pushing me to the limit, pushing me to see how much belief I actually have that Allah will make things better that things will change. And i'm not afraid to admit that at this moment in time, unfortunately I don't have that belief. I'm feeling mentally and emotionally exahusted, I feel like i've batteled this to death but it's still there. Deep down I also know that I MUST go on, I must continue to fight and continue to try and put all my belief into Allah, i'm not at that stage yet. But yes I do understand that I need to get myself to that stage. Because after all that is what this is all about.

And about the point of social/cultural norms. It does happen i'm afraid. No matter how much you say everyone is their own person etc. My parents are set in their traditional cultural ways, yes currently I can say I don't want to get married, I want to educate/work etc. But then what happens when you reach 30 for example? What do you say to them? I don't know but i think it's different for other people in their own situations, the amount they get influenced by culture/parents etc.

The fact for me is that as long as I can remember I have had these feelings of attraction towards men. So I don't need to keep saying to myself i'm gay, I don't say it. I FEEl it inside me on a daily basis and continually try to tell myself it's wrong. It's not an identification/ a labelling issue, that I label myself as a gay. I don't. I know being gay is wrong, but mentally you get to a stage where your tired of fighting- the best way I can think to explain is like a cancer patient undergoing treatment. When sometimes your sick of everything and just wish it would all end so you could rest in peace again. But at the other end of the scale you can ride it out to the end by trusting Allah. But mentally being able to reach that stage is a huge challenge in itself, I do strive to do it but it;s difficult. I'm not saying i'm going to give, it juts seems like nothing happens. Like there's end to this.

I'm sorry if you felt that I thought your post was just make dua and have faith. I didn't see it like that really. I know myself that the whole solution of this is to just leave your complete trust in Allah, but i'm saying at the same time, not seeing an end to this, makes that increasingly difficult. But then again i believe that that is the test from Allah. He will push me to the extreme and see if I still hold faith in Him. Inshallah I will.

And I think thats where the whole support thing that I keep going on about comes in. At periods when I feel myself having low imaan, when you just need a sympathetic ear to listen to your problems when your down, a shoulder to cry on. Someone to tell you to just carry on. It would make alot of difference for you to be able to just able to tell your problems to someone. But all I feel is that people are quick to judge and tell thats it a sin rather than be prepared to help? Or maybe i'm just making abit too much of a sweeping generalization. I don't know.

just remember, we're not perfect, so maybe you're doing something wrong, hence why this is becoming so hard on you. maybe you need to rectify something in your imaan/religious practises?

i could never truly understand the way you feel or the pain you go through, and so i might sound really shallow and not-understanding and annoying. so please forgive me in advance.

im saying. dont keep telling yourself "this is how i will feel for the rest of my life" dont think that. dont say it dont think it. because you simply dont know! you cant know that for sure! that's part of tawakkul in Allah.

you dont know where you'll be at 30, if even alive. so dont think too much ahead!

cant you just then ignore this attraction you feel? i mean, you're not acting on them, and its causing you so much pain, dont you, at the end of the day, stop feeling the attraction? because you get no pleasure out of it and just pain and sorrow.

eeeeeeeewwwwwwwww U Dirty People !!! It's Haram..how the hell did u manage to get feelings for a girl??? In Ramadan aswell??? Eww man can't u control ur feelings....i manage too!