Ukip calls for ban on Muslim veil

Please do read all my posts before replying. you obviously can not comprehend what I am saying.

[quote=rakibm]Please do read all my posts before replying. you obviously can not comprehend what I am saying. [/quote]

too right i can't.

a load of codswallop.

So you need to influence the correct parts of the culture and not create stupid legislation so that will hurt the same people they are pretending to help.

Either way, the people pushing the ban are not doing so to help the women, but for political reasons.

So you are in favour of changing the person forcing women how to dress from members of their family to members of the government? Is that what you want from the government?

Rite, for you and the other person commenting.

YOU said that if it was banned, the women who are forced to wear it, will not not be able to go anywhere?

who tells them that they can not go any where? the MALES?

Yes..It is the Males. The face - veil question is not just a simple answer. It is part of a culture, a male - dominated culture that has mixed to freely with Islam. And i gave you an example. Honor Killings. Men are putting CULTURE before their religion.

This before any government ban should take place should be brought up with Muslim Leaders to sort this problem out of culture. It is backward has no place in Britain where equal rights do ACTUALLY EXIST!

you tell me what you can not understand noor.

[quote=rakibm]you tell me what you can not understand noor. [/quote]

everything.

like what.. explain, so I can.

[quote=rakibm]Rite, for you and the other person commenting.

YOU said that if it was banned, the women who are forced to wear it, will not not be able to go anywhere?

who tells them that they can not go any where? the MALES?[/quote]

Not always. they can choose so themselves. or it could be their mothers, sisters, daughters even who while not banning it would make it extremely uncomfortable for them.

Either way, I am planning to leave this topic. Best to let women argue against the ban instead of me doing it.

[quote=rakibm] Just how we say in Islam we can not generalise all Muslims, then we must not do the same here[/quote]

[quote=rakibm]Which is the point. Who dictates to the women where they can go? The Males. that kind of CULTURE is backward and barbaric! That is how i support it! We need to strip culture and Islam. They have mixed so much that Men can think they have right to do what they want to Women, an example... Honor Killings.
[/quote]

You are contradicting yourself.

Not every women is forced to cover up. Not every woman is oppressed and controlled by her male relations. Not every woman is stripped from her rights.

and i would also like to read why culture is wrong...

Sorry, but how did i contradict myself?

Culture is not wrong, as long as it stays within those countries. Mixing a load of different cultures within Islam is. Read all of my previous pots.

the fact that the wives of the prophet ﷺ wore the niqaab after the verses of hijaab were revealed shows that the niqaab is very much a part of islam.

do the research.

So your telling me that a woman is going to force herself to wear something she does not want to wear? Or another female relative, as close as a mother, is going to force a female to wear what she does not want to wear?

yes, that is right, as many women did. The Niqab predates Islam. But times have changed, The Prophet (PBUH) had a 6 year old wife 1400 years ago, that was the norm back then. Now..It would be wrong. Times and Society has changed.

[quote=rakibm]Sorry, but how did i contradict myself?

Culture is not wrong, as long as it stays within those countries. Mixing a load of different cultures within Islam is. Read all of my previous pots. [/quote]

You said you can not generalise, yet here you are generalising.

Ok, why is mixing cultures wrong?

no. If she is banned from veiling in public, she may CHOOSE to keep the veil and stop going into those public places. In which case any such ban is actually hurting people.

Please take care and read carefully - sometimes you may need to concentrate. (just echoing your similar comments.)

what do you want those women to do, the ones that are being forced to wear the niqaab?

divorce their husbands?!!

that is a personal matter, between them and their husbands.

if they want help, they will ask for it.

I mean that we Muslims say to others we should not generalise Muslims. Likewise we should not do it with Veiled Women. Most, am sure, wear it willingly, but some ARE being forced to wear it.

and mixing of different cultures within religion. Well, what would happen if we mixed the african culture of Female Genital Mutilation and Pakistani Culture of Honor Killings within Islam

This is exactly what I am talking about! There are women who will WANT to do that! But in cultures when the male dominates, the Male gets the way, as evident here: http://news.oneindia.in/2010/01/22/saudi-girl-gets-90-lashes-for-using-…

What has that got to do with Islam? Saudi Arabia, apparently, is governed by Sharia Law. Is this what Sharia Law asks off?

And by the way..focus on phones are banned. and there are many cases like this, of women getting raped and getting lashes. This is not Islam. This is the male - dominated culture, which should not come into the shores of the UK

[quote=rakibm]I mean that we Muslims say to others we should not generalise Muslims. Likewise we should not do it with Veiled Women. Most, am sure, wear it willingly, but some ARE being forced to wear it.

and mixing of different cultures within religion. Well, what would happen if we mixed the african culture of Female Genital Mutilation and Pakistani Culture of Honor Killings within Islam[/quote]

and now you have come up with a clear and decent comment.

Ofcourse the wrong stuff from cultures cannot be practiced but i still do not see whats wrong with wearing a face veil.

and if you realise that most women wear it out of their own will why do not have a problem with this ban? why do u think its ok?

Just like the woemn that are being forced to wear it, theyre will be women who are now forced to stop wearing it - how is that any better?

I am echoing, because you are not listening. BUT my question was, for which you said this, for women that are being forced to wear the veil, if the veil was banned and then now they can not go to those places because her oppressors says she needs the veil...WHO IS THE OPPRESSOR?

Because of the fact that it is part of OTHER COUNTRIES culture! And, let say you are right. What will happen to the Women that are oppressed. Surely helping the ones that are oppressed is better and more valuable then those that can wear it freely? We do live in England. not 1400 years ago. time and culture has changed. it is a bit like you are saying, why can Muslim Men not marry 6 year olds now because the Rrophet pbuh married one, even they are not paedophiles? That is oppressing the Mans freedom? Well no, not really. Time and society has changed.

[quote=rakibm]Because of the fact that it is part of OTHER COUNTRIES culture! And, let say you are right. What will happen to the Women that are oppressed. Surely helping the ones that are oppressed is better and more valuable then those that can wear it freely? [/quote]

if this ban took place, the free would become the oppressed.

this topic is making me dizzy.

[quote=rakibm]and mixing of different cultures within religion. Well, what would happen if we mixed the african culture of Female Genital Mutilation and Pakistani Culture of Honor Killings within Islam[/quote]

Just to add here separate from the rest of discussion, if the cultural practice is wrong, then it is wrong. Mixing cultures is not the problem but the unislamic nature of the practice/cultural act in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with mixing cultures - as long as the acts are allowed in islam.

Now we have hit a point!

You said:

There is nothing wrong with mixing cultures - as long as the acts are allowed in islam.

Ok then. Face veil: arab culture, pre-dates Islam.

We can carry on letting muslim women wear face veils, but because they majority of women are not oppressed, or not forced to wear it, that makes it alright? We just forget the minority that are oppressed, and that are forced to wear it. that is the Islamic Way of doing it?

No

So. You strip culture from Islam. Within culture, the face - veil goes.

And what about the thing that i said about the marrying of a 6 year old wife? Why do we not protest that British Law? The Prophet did it, so Muslim men can/want to do it? What about that law?

[quote=rakibm]Now we have hit a point!

You said:

There is nothing wrong with mixing cultures - as long as the acts are allowed in islam.

Ok then. Face veil: arab culture, pre-dates Islam.

We can carry on letting muslim women wear face veils, but because they majority of women are not oppressed, or not forced to wear it, that makes it alright? We just forget the minority that are oppressed, and that are forced to wear it. that is the Islamic Way of doing it?

No

So. You strip culture from Islam. Within culture, the face - veil goes. [/quote]

your post makes no sense and makes leaps in logic that are not logical.

What we do know is that at the minimum, the face veil was tolerated at the time of the Prophet ﷺ - the mere act of the prophet ﷺ allowing something makes it a sunnah - he ﷺ would forbid anything that was wrong.

(people brushed their teeth before Islam, that does not make brushing the teeth not be a sunnah.)

and no, because then you not only oppress the minority, you fail to help those that are forced - they melt away into the background, further cut off from contact with society.

[quote=rakibm]And what about the thing that i said about the marrying of a 6 year old wife? Why do we not protest that British Law? The Prophet did it, so Muslim men can/want to do it? What about that law?

[/quote]

It is a point of dispute. Some put her age as that young, but others, such Ibn Katheer (the famous mufassir) put her age at 18. Others say 19. (still, take away three for when the engagement happened, which is what you are referring to and not the actual marriage.)

Can you please discuss one issue per topic instead of trying to confuse issues and mix them up? (there is another topic on this already and it seems to me you are jumping from issue to issue in order to stop getting caught in the headlights or to admit error - be careful as that is what the shaytaan was finally convicted for - when he erred,m he was given a chance to explain himself, to redress, but his pride and arrogance did not allow him to do such things and he denied wrong doing (and then blamed it on God)).

as for the answer here, it is against the law and Muslims abide by the law - there is nothing in islam demanding that someone that young married - more, if sexual conduct is carried out at such an age, the (adult) person should be punished.

That does not go against the sunnah though, the difference is that the Islamic age of consent is at puberty, while in the UK it is a fixed number. Both can be followed at the same time.

I'm not a big fan of the veil
however
each to their own

it seems that women have gained the freedom to take their clothes off but if they want to cover up, shock horror!
living in a liberal country such as the UK means that we should eb able to dress the way we want to
so long as we're not walking around completely naked

headscarf, no headscarf, veil, no veil
we should be allowed to wear what we want to

oh paleeze are you saying banning the niqab is about saving the small minority who are being forced to wear it? What a great cause. I am sorry but the government should do some initiatives give opportunities for these women to get self help through GP, local library whatever local resource. But enforcing a total ban on the masses just to save a minority that is a pathetic argument. Save them from what armageddon?

There are bigger causes to fight. Why not have a total ban on drugs, surely drug addicts need saving? Why not ban manufacturers of tweeny clothing that immitate adult clothing to sexualise girls as young as 6- legalised coporate paedophilia?Why not concentrate on arming their troops correctly. They can't even afford to give their troops correct working equipment, and here they are arguing about the face veil? This is not about women's right this is a political issue. The niqab is something the west finds alien and threatening. Rather than trying to educate the masses they are pushing them into further ignorance, and a total lack of respect for other ppls religion, culture and values.It's nothing new Islam has been hot news since 9/11.