Just to keep this separate from other topics.
and can we please keep this clear of:
1. Hyperbole.
2. insinuations and insults.
By this, what I mean is, a person has a right when asked to give his real opinion on a matter without recourse to "revenge" replies - I am more interested in what people think on these issues than the condemnation of those views if others disagree.
I very much doubt this will go according to plan, but I will start a question, something that I have wanted to ask.
Recently, Israel has been repossessing homes of Palestinians in East Jerusalem under the pretext that either the residents were not legally resident or that the buildings were built without permit - with the homes them being either demolished or handed over the Israeli citizens( while many other Israeli citizens also protested against this move).
Where do you see the right and the wrong on this matter?
Also, a question to those opposed to occupation:
Why is the freedom of the Palestinians, or a Palestinian state important?
Is it not more important that the people are allowed to live decent lives? After all, while Islam gave slaves rights, it did not outright ban it (and the closest it came to an outright ban was under Hadhrat Umar (ra) - who the Shia Muslims do not accept as legitimate.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Israel needs to be sensitive and not drawn by its right wing into creating unnecessary tensions. Israel's courts are generally very responsive to this so I would be interested to look at the ruling you are referring to, please linky. In some cases I can think of Jordan allocated annexed land as it saw fit, and Israel or Israeli companies have been known to contest ownership of these as well as illegally built properties. Perhaps in other cases there is no such rhyme or reason.
New construction should only be on land Israel can definitively lay claim to, and I believe Israel should be scaling back on some existing settlements. That is one for negotiators to take their time on, and is not pressing in every instance. Some settlements, built on land annexed by Jordan between 1948 and 1967, are consistent with Israel's claims over Jerusalem, so the details, the exact boundaries, are sensitive and frankly beyond my expertise. Wanting to respect the claims of all parties to negotiation leads me to support a close approximation to 1967. (Why there can be no urgency is the strategic consideration of who - in particular the fanatical Sunni and Shia sects embodied by Hamas and Hizbollah respectively - is not interested in any permanent resolution but military victory.)
The rights and wrongs of construction would be permanently settled by a treaty between all interested parties. It is difficult to see how Hamas in particular would either be party to such a treaty or constrained within it. Not all Israeli construction is bad but Israel needs to be sensitive if it is realistically ever going to be a dove.
I dislike how you vilify Hamas - it is exactly as you were complaining about how people calling themselves zionists are vilified.
Hamas is currently the only legitimate authority in any of the palesitnian lands (however, that will cease to be sometime in Januray/February, when its mandated timeslot runs out.) and if it was negotiated with instead of vilified, things right now would be so much better.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Maybe not pressing in every instance, but during moments of negotiation, settlement building normally proceeds rapidly, as there is a more peaceable environment allowing such abuse of good will to happen.
One of the cases of recent evictions from East Jerusalem - but there have been many others too.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Israel is an occupying force that is clearly oppressing the Palestinians. UN and EU both condemned Israel. Israel is behaving like German Nazis behaved towards Jews in 1940. Jews are going to Muslims what Nazis did to Jews. There is no difference between Nazis and Jews. They are of the same evil mentality. May God destory both in this world and in the next world.
Only US is silent on this criminal activity of racist Israel. US even gives green light to Israel to carry on persecuting muslims and deny them basic rights.
If freedom of Palestinians is not important then neither is that of Israel.
Jews think they are better than Muslims but in reality they are not. God does not love oppressive people. In the Bible, Moses and Jesus condemned Jews for being evil and devious. They are cursed people. That is why Zionists were hated throughout history. Today Zionists are hated by everyone. Soon Iran will finish them all inshallah.
But if Jews repent and do whats right, then maybe there is a way out for them. But it dont look likely these Satanic Israelis will do the right thing. Prophet said they will be destroyed all of them. God will let Muslims wipe them off the map. Unjust and cruel evil people. Rats of the earth. Lanat of them.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
I thought zionism was a relatively new movement? So how can it have been hated throughout history?
Why/where are they cursed? such statements should be easy to back up with evidence.
If Israel/Supporters of Israel was hated by everyone, it would have no fuding/help/legitimacy that it gets from many places, so such a statement is hyperbole.
Can we please avopid hyperbole - that is not what I want this topic to be about.
Another question that I read as part of some larger conspiracy theory - the majority of modern jews are converts from Georgia, and do not trace their lineage back to the lands of Israel etc... is there any truth in that?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Everyone except the Great Satan hates Israel. America gives money and arms to jews to go kill innocent palestinians women and children. Did you see the gaza war in january 2009?
These evil zionists are not new. they existed since Romans kicked them out of palestine. they went from country to country trying to survive. no body liked them. they always got kicked out from everywhere. they were percesuted by christians.
Iran says zionists re emerged as strong power only after they got established in world banking sectors and politics in 19th century. They saw muslims are occupied and so they work to destroy Ottoman empire.
After ottoman caliphate (LA) got weak with help of zionists, the UK gave them Palestine as a reward. Thats how evil israel got there.
But inshallah it wont survive long. its days are over. Iran and other muslims who love Palestine will destroy this illegal and immmoral state of israel.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
ok, can you please stop now.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
fine.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
Thankyou - I don't need the future predicted. We can deal with happens if and when it happens.
(and I was reading earlier that there is speculation on a spring war, so the hyperbole may be tested sooner rather than later...)
Palestinian suffering - while a huge problem - is not the only bad thing in the world. There are many other attrocities going on too. You may want to concentrate and give them all equal billing too, but they may be less sexy bandwaggons.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Palestine is third holiest land for us. Rwanda is not.
God is going to ask muslims why you took 100 years to destroy Israel.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
Palestine is just land. If you really care, you would be caring about the people living on it and how their lives are affected by actions - they should not be used as political ping pong balls.
Yes it has significance, but that does not allow you to ignore the plight of other humans - where each and every human is worth more than a piece of land.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
This business of who is better is deeply unwholesome.
I thought about that at length, a difficult concept to get my head around. If they do good work I can't condemn it. What I condemn is their charter that concretely villifies and commits to unending war, the hardcore mentality that might or might not one day stop splintering off into new militant groups bound by no agreement, and the propagandising of the youth that makes peace an ever dimmer prospect. If I seem to give Israel leeway it is because there is no dispute that Israel is a stronger force than these guerillas, and there is no dispute that these guerillas are permanently plotting. Hamas to me is like a Sunni version of Malik. It is true that we have to hold out hope and that Israel should be as restrained as possible. It is nowhere near true that Israel is a particularly bad apple among its neighbours. There is no cheer for me in that last relativist statement, but it has significance for anyone who argues to the contrary.
you would have a point if they had not recently even got other groups to stop firing rockets into israel or if they had broken the ceasefire last year - which israel violated often and decimated at the end.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Not saying that there are no troubles - but if you go by recent track record, Hamas are far more peaceable that the Israeli side.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
How the war got started last year is a contentious thing. We can agree it wasn't Israel's proudest moment, but nor was it the kind of bloodthirsty rampage deserving of this treatment. Innocents were killed, so for my part Israel should account for this, is responsible for this. Numerous countries at war display no regard whatsoever for innocent life. There are terrible incidents for which specific soldiers and commanders must be accountable, still those are not the norm for Israeli soldiers (I doubt I say that convincingly for anyone here though, there is too much noise and emotions are raw - strangely raw for some, who pick their battles loyally and fashionably).
Even as the story unfolds we see it differently, and then I don't expect to revise anyone's memories. The best I can hope for is perspective, and we can agree on what is right and what is wrong in principle and in many instances around the world and maybe someday in this one.