What does it say?

agreed

actually let me rephrase . i wouldnt agree it as to be shirk .. because i wouldnt go to that extreme but it can be bidda which can ultimately lead to shirk , May Allah save us all from that inshAllah, ameen.

but theres good and bad biddah...

i thought bidda means innovation to religion so how can there be any good...i could be wrong ofcourse but did the propher Muhammad PBUH not complete the deen for us before he passed away and is the quran, sunna and sai hadith not enough for us after all it waas enough for the sahaaba after the prophet PBUH passed away so why do we need innovations islam is already perfect and complete and any innovation will surely bring about corruption. is this not what happened with the jews and christans before us ? i thought due to bidda they had strayed from the righteous path.

suhail wrote:

...but it can be bidda which can ultimately lead to shirk...

bid'ah and shirk are different things.

PS banning anything which is allowed is also bid'ah as it is adding a new prohibition to religion.

yes it is different but it can ultimately lead to shirk can it not? i mean acts like attending shrines and asking a 'dead person' - no matter how learned they were the fact is that they are 'dead' ..asking them to deliver your duas to Allah ...this is bidda and in extreme cases it would also be considered shirk.

Do you believe that when someone sends salutations upon the Prophet (saw), he does actually receive them, as has been said in ahadith?

Do you think God is not powerful enough to bestow special attributes to individuals beloved to him?

If you do not think God is powerful enough to do such as act, then so be it, but as long as someone believes that power is ultimately from God, and does not associate another partner, offspring to him, he is mostly in the clear.

More, ion the final sermon, the prophet said that he did not fear shirk would overcome the muslims as that was now something that would not happen, but he feared smaller things like becoming obsessed with the world that would damage muslims.

If the Prophet himself was not worried about this, who arew the new pretenders to the throne who think they know better?

i know muhammad SAW recieves the info of those who say SAW to him after any one says his name, second of all muhammad SAW in the final sermon didnt say disrespecting parents would be a major thing in the future either but today that is one of the worst things today, just because muhamamd SAW didnt mnetion this doesntmean it isnt something that is possible of happening is it. I mean look how badly qadianis destructed themselves, from a false guy who was exposed by allah destructed a lot of people from the truth.

its not that he didn't mention shirk - he did. he said that it is no longer an issue.

That is totally different from the issue of respecting parents (which may or may not be a bigger issue than it has been historically - after all, I doubt must patricide happens these days...) as that was not mentioned while the shirk being a non issue was specifically mentioned.

Also, if you are worried about shirk, you should look at the aqeedah of Ibn Abdal Wahaab's followers and many salafis - it has issues of pantheism which makes many people uncomfortable.

The majority Muslim view is that God is beyond physical limits, when the qur'an talks about limbs, it is being metaphorical and He (swt) is not limited to a specific space as space itself is creation.

However some salafi/wahabi aqeedah suggests that He (swt) is physical, has arms and legs like humans, is also confined to a specific location above the heavens whee He (swt) sits on a throne.

That sounds awful like the Christian idea where God created Adam (as) in His image...

You wrote:

Do you believe that when someone sends salutations upon the Prophet (saw), he does actually receive them, as has been said in ahadith?

Do you think God is not powerful enough to bestow special attributes to individuals beloved to him?

If you do not think God is powerful enough to do such as act, then so be it, but as long as someone believes that power is ultimately from God, and does not associate another partner, offspring to him, he is mostly in the clear.

More, ion the final sermon, the prophet said that he did not fear shirk would overcome the muslims as that was now something that would not happen, but he feared smaller things like becoming obsessed with the world that would damage muslims.

If the Prophet himself was not worried about this, who arew the new pretenders to the throne who think they know better?

yes your right i would rather not associate any partners with Allah because its forbidden ,i believe that Allah rewards but that doesnt give people reason to make the decision themself that they have a high status (being humble is also good)

just because a certain person was 'naik' or called themself 'waliyullah' its not to say that they are anything of the sort this is exactly what corrupt peers do give themself a status then charge money for their 'services'

also shirk is something now to be worried about because it seems like its something on the increase

Then don't pay them. they will soon be out of business.

As for charging for services, it actually approved by the Prophet himself.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet was cupped and he paid the wages to the one who had cupped him and then took Su'ut (Medicine sniffed by nose).

and the biggie - Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Some of the companions of the Prophet came across a tribe amongst the tribes of the Arabs, and that tribe did not entertain them. While they were in that state, the chief of that tribe was bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion). They said, (to the companions of the Prophet ), "Have you got any medicine with you or anybody who can treat with Ruqya?" The Prophet's companions said, "You refuse to entertain us, so we will not treat (your chief) unless you pay us for it." So they agreed to pay them a flock of sheep. One of them (the Prophet's companions) started reciting Surat-al-Fatiha and gathering his saliva and spitting it (at the snake-bite). The patient got cured and his people presented the sheep to them, but they said, "We will not take it unless we ask the Prophet (whether it is lawful)." When they asked him, he smiled and said, "How do you know that Surat-al-Fatiha is a Ruqya? Take it (flock of sheep) and assign a share for me."

(both from Sahih Bukhari)

You wrote:

Then don't pay them. they will soon be out of business.

As for charging for services, it actually approved by the Prophet himself.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet was cupped and he paid the wages to the one who had cupped him and then took Su'ut (Medicine sniffed by nose).

and the biggie - Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Some of the companions of the Prophet came across a tribe amongst the tribes of the Arabs, and that tribe did not entertain them. While they were in that state, the chief of that tribe was bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion). They said, (to the companions of the Prophet ), "Have you got any medicine with you or anybody who can treat with Ruqya?" The Prophet's companions said, "You refuse to entertain us, so we will not treat (your chief) unless you pay us for it." So they agreed to pay them a flock of sheep. One of them (the Prophet's companions) started reciting Surat-al-Fatiha and gathering his saliva and spitting it (at the snake-bite). The patient got cured and his people presented the sheep to them, but they said, "We will not take it unless we ask the Prophet (whether it is lawful)." When they asked him, he smiled and said, "How do you know that Surat-al-Fatiha is a Ruqya? Take it (flock of sheep) and assign a share for me."

(both from Sahih Bukhari)

that would be fine in this day and age if the treatment actually worked lol, in alot of cases of so called exorcism they just beat the hell out of someone even tho that may not even be the problem....and another thing people pay and take whatever is being given to them blindly ... i mean come on people look at the little piece of paper with the arabic on it and see what it says lol .... u cannot deny this doesnt happen.

peers = im thinkin more like rituals and big plates of biryani lol u nw wah am sayin right , this would be your dodgy peer and then there will actually be people who may be able to help you through reciting a dua or something of the sort.

If they recite from the qur'an, follow the sunnah, so be it. You do not have to follow them, but at the same time, acting on sunnah, reciting the qur'an and not harmful acts, and in another such topic, I even provided ahadith that showed the validity of taking payment for such actions.

Just requoting... in case it was forgotten after the later bombshells that destroyed the general attack on people who may even be dispicable.

You wrote:

... if you are worried about shirk, you should look at the aqeedah of Ibn Abdal Wahaab's followers and many salafis - it has issues of pantheism which makes many people uncomfortable.

The majority Muslim view is that God is beyond physical limits, when the qur'an talks about limbs, it is being metaphorical and He (swt) is not limited to a specific space as space itself is creation.

However some salafi/wahabi aqeedah suggests that He (swt) is physical, has arms and legs like humans, is also confined to a specific location above the heavens whee He (swt) sits on a throne.

That sounds awful like the Christian idea where God created Adam (as) in His image...

Any replies? Pantheism

You wrote:

its not that he didn't mention shirk - he did. he said that it is no longer an issue.

That is totally different from the issue of respecting parents (which may or may not be a bigger issue than it has been historically - after all, I doubt must patricide happens these days...) as that was not mentioned while the shirk being a non issue was specifically mentioned.

Also, if you are worried about shirk, you should look at the aqeedah of Ibn Abdal Wahaab's followers and many salafis - it has issues of pantheism which makes many people uncomfortable.

The majority Muslim view is that God is beyond physical limits, when the qur'an talks about limbs, it is being metaphorical and He (swt) is not limited to a specific space as space itself is creation.

However some salafi/wahabi aqeedah suggests that He (swt) is physical, has arms and legs like humans, is also confined to a specific location above the heavens whee He (swt) sits on a throne.

That sounds awful like the Christian idea where God created Adam (as) in His image...

you idiot that is mentioned in the quran, allah does have a face, their is even a hadith which states allah will show himself to people of jannah, and second time for the sake of abu bakr, jsut because allah has face eyes foot and hands doesnt mean it looks like human feats and hands, allah as he said theirs nothing like him, take a look at the foot of a horse and human, its completely different, just like that allah may have foot and hands and a face but it looks completely different and cannot be imagined.

in bhukari it says:
“Every time a group is cast in hell it says: ‘Are there any more to come?’ until Allah, the Exalted Supreme Lord, puts His foot therein, so every place in hell crawls inside itself and it says: ‘Never, my Lord, by Your Honour and Beneficence!’”

and who says allah looks like aadam AS, so how on earth is that shirk?

Dajjal is one-eyed but Allah is not…(Sahih Bukhari, 4.55.553)

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 553:

Narrated Ibn Umar:

Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "l warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."

Sahih Muslim writes that Allah is not deaf; He can talk and listen and he is really an entity—a physical entity, to be precise, just the likes of a human being.

Let us read this hadith from Sahih Muslim:

Allah is not deaf or absent; the treasure of Paradise is reciting ‘there is no might and no power but that of Allah’…(Sahih Muslim, 35.6528)

Book 035, Number 6528:

Abu Musa reported that he (and his other companions) were climbing upon the hillock along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when any person climbed up, he pronounced (loudly):" There is no god but Allah, Allah is the Greatest." Thereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, you are not supplicating One Who is deaf or absent. He said: Abu Musa or Abdullah b Qais, should I not direct you to the words (which form) the treasure of Paradise ? I said: Allah's Messenger, what are these? He said:" There is no might and no power but that of Allah."

get your facts and education right, allah does look liek something but only allah knws how he looks like, as for where is allah, he is above the duniya above time above jannah and above his throne, not a limited space, but above his throne which itself shows allah is somewhere where their is no such thing as a limite space, in sahih muslim muhammad SAW said allah has a veil:

The Messenger described Allah, as "His veil is Light, if He unveils it, the Light of His Face will burn all what His Sight reaches (which is everything!)" [Muslim]

and allah has no phyiscal limits he is allpowerful he can do anything he wishes.

Just because allah looks like something doesnt mean he like us human he looks completely different and unimaginable, no different to how human and animals jinns and angels look completely different from another.

So go back to the quran and sunnah and not your so called scholars like pathtic nizam nazim whatever his called, and that other nonsense guy i mentioned in the other thread.

awlia wrote:

you idiot that is mentioned in the quran, allah does have a face, their is even a hadith which states allah will show himself to people of jannah

The majority view is that it is not only metaphorical, but understanding God fully is beyond our comprehension.

So just saying tht God is like you, but bigger... I find that distasteful and wrong.

Barelvi.

What does that mean?

s.b.f wrote:

Barelvi.

What does that mean?

The Barelvi movement was started in 1880 to promote South Asia's distinctive Islamic practices, which are deeply influenced by Sufism

barelvi - from bareily - a place in india. the "founder" had something to do with the place, either studied there or was born there.

(same with the "other" movement, deobandi - "from deoband", a place in india, where there is a ig darul uloom)

Founder of what?

What was this movement about?

You wrote:

barelvi - from bareily - a place in india. the "founder" had something to do with the place, either studied there or was born there.

(same with the "other" movement, deobandi - "from deoband", a place in india, where there is a ig darul uloom)

hence it not even being a sect of islam just a movement based on innovations

Suhail, leave it.

If you want to say something, say it with specifics. otherwise it is just slander and hyperbole.

you disagree with it... even though I suspect you do not know what you disagree with, its simply what you have been brought up to disagree with.

Many others will agree with it for exactly the same reasons.

No point sticking to names - specific actions etc are what should be discussed, and if wrong, challenged and eliminated.

okkay lol i'l shuup nw then ... yh ur ryt i dont agree with it and yh i dont know everything about sufiasm but from few things i have read i dont agree with and i be happy with path i am on right now as a sunni - muslim , quran,sunna and hadith

St786 wrote:

sunni - muslim , quran,sunna and hadith

Good signature line that.

You wrote:

awlia wrote:

you idiot that is mentioned in the quran, allah does have a face, their is even a hadith which states allah will show himself to people of jannah

The majority view is that it is not only metaphorical, but understanding God fully is beyond our comprehension.

So just saying tht God is like you, but bigger... I find that distasteful and wrong.

you might wanna check that again, the view of this is fully accepted by all accept sufi group, allah even describes himself in surah ahad, that their is none like him, so even if allah as he himself stated does have a face, hands foot, he allah will look nothing like a human being, he allah has the most beautyful face which is unimaginable for human, when people will see him in jannah they will say they dont need anything else in jannah now tht have seen allah, So no allah isnt like us, a horse has eyes face legs does that mean we are humanising the horse? of course not thats just its description, just like that allah has face hands and feats, but that doesnt mean its anything like human, its completely different and unimaginable for human to even think of no different to the throne of allah.

yes, but the description is metaphorical. "there is none like Him", meaning what we see as hands and feet are not what He (swt) is like. Which is understandable as the space we are created in is also something that is a creation of God, such is His magnificence.

You wrote:

yes, but the description is metaphorical. "there is none like Him", meaning what we see as hands and feet are not what He (swt) is like. Which is understandable as the space we are created in is also something that is a creation of God, such is His magnificence.

metaphorical? its not metaphorical its the truth, their is none like him, anything that can be compared to human or animals or anything cannot be god, allah unlike hindu gods who have practically look like human beings is one of their errors and something they exposed themselves by,
their is none like him doesnt mean allah cannot have face,cannot have hands or feat, it means their is none like him, so if he has hands and feats doesnt mean their is something like him as even his hands and feats are as he said none like him so his hands and feats are none like what we expect, in bhukari muhammad SAW says allah will put his foot down on the hell fire and the hell will say it doesnt nee anymore people, if allah didnt have a feat would he reveal such hadith? of course not, allah has a feat which he will use for the thing mentioned above on the day of judgement, if he didnt have a feat then he wouldve not metnioned this. Its common sense, and what do you mean that is not how Allah is not like? of course allah's feat will not be liek that of ours it will be as i said something beautiful and something beyond our imagination, something like no other things. As i said no different to throne of allah, it is something unimaginable to the human, a throne like no other.

awlia wrote:

if he didnt have a feat then he wouldve not metnioned this. Its common sense, and what do you mean that is not how Allah is not like? of course allah's feat will not be liek that of ours it will be as i said something beautiful and something beyond our imagination, something like no other things. As i said no different to throne of allah, it is something unimaginable to the human, a throne like no other.

Sorry don't mean to be rude but that spelling is bugging me! its feet

is evrything in the Qur'an taken word for word? < no thats not a rhetoric question.

i think that, that is a metaphor to help us try and understand Allah swt. however we will never be able to comprehend but it gives us soemthing "to work on" if that makes sense.

don't know if ive made it very clear on what i exactly mean or not.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

awlia wrote:

if he didnt have a feat then he wouldve not metnioned this. Its common sense, and what do you mean that is not how Allah is not like? of course allah's feat will not be liek that of ours it will be as i said something beautiful and something beyond our imagination, something like no other things. As i said no different to throne of allah, it is something unimaginable to the human, a throne like no other.

Sorry don't mean to be rude but that spelling is bugging me! its feet

is evrything in the Qur'an taken word for word? < no thats not a rhetoric question.

i think that, that is a metaphor to help us try and understand Allah swt. however we will never be able to comprehend but it gives us soemthing "to work on" if that makes sense.

don't know if ive made it very clear on what i exactly mean or not.

well your spelling is just as bad as mine, but anyway,

and yes of course the quran is to be taken word for word, what do you think the quran is a joke book, it says the things directly whatever allah has to say, some thigns are written in unique poetry way but thei is no problem to that as muhammad SAW has translated that so we can understand and then tafsi ibn kathir was able to break it down even more.

As for the face of allah, you think allah will use such thing as metaphors? come on think about it how can allah use things reffering to himself as metaphors, dont you think the nonmuslims wouldve attempted to make stab at that if that was the case, it is not metaphor even nonmuslim accept this info and they admit that no error can be found here as the belief here is that allah even if he has a face hands and feet then it wont be like human or anything else but something beyond our imagination, as i said look at the feet of the horse and human does it look the same? no it looks completely different just like that allah has feet but looks completely different and nothing like human or any creation of allah.

as stated in the hadith:

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullaah, "When this verse, ‘Say (O Muhammad) He has power to send punishment on you from above’ [6:65], was revealed, the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said, ‘I seek refuge with Your Face’. Allaah revealed, ‘Or from underneath your feet’ [6:65], the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said, ‘I seek refuge with Your Face’. Then Allaah revealed ‘Or to cover you with confusion or party strife!’ [6:65], then the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallaam) said, ‘This is easier’."

And here Imaam Bukhaaree affirms, without doubt, the Attribute of Face, just as he brought narrations in affirmation of Hand, Eyes, Self (Nafs), His Speech, His being above the Throne and many of the other attributes that the Jahmiyyah denied. So this puts an end to the argument adduced from his Kitaab ut-Tafseer. (Ibid., Affirmation of the Attribute of Face for Allaah; source; underline emphasis ours)