Salam

Be an angel and relax.

If you behave, we will all help you here at The Revival.

You will not be disappointed.

Omrow

Asalamu alaykum,

Jazakum Allah khyrn for sharing your thoughts with us Here are mine..hope it doesn't sound like a rant!

"I have grown up following the teachings and praying 5 times a day, etc.... but in recent years, my beliefs have started to change. I realised before that certain things i was doing was because i was TOLD to do them by my parents, and wasnt doing them bcoz of choice. I realised that was wrong, and i want to be able to give an answer and explanation for everything that i do - Not just the answer 'bcoz my mum says i have to !' . Lol."

It's not your fault that you were not taught the purpose and beauty of such practices whilst growing up...repeating ritual practices that you don’t understand will make you confused, and your heart will still be in darkness...but by learning about why you pray, benefits etc. you will begin to realise the beauty of the prayer etc...

"My issue that has plagued me for a long time now is that i dont strictly agree with all of the rulings/teachings presented to us. I beleive in things such as no sex before marriage, and giving to the poor etc ... but im having issues with other things such as praying 5 times a day - I used to, and some days now i still do, but sometimes i find myself praying 2 or 3 times a day instead. Reason being, if im not in the right frame of mind to do it and im praying being angry about it or bcoz my dad is making me then i personally feel that is VERY wrong ... Praying should be something done whole-heartedly and with passion. So if im not feeling that way, then i think its an insult to pray in that state ... just robotically and with no meaning."

There becomes a stage in everyone’s life where their salah is not good, without concentration etc. It is very hard to concentrate completely, for everyone. But as the point of praying is drawing close to Allah swt, stopping the connection all together is going to make us further away from Him than if we did salah without full concentration. Allah swt gave us the guidelines of 5 times a day so that we will constantly remember Him and renew our connection to Him. If we could choose how many times etc. we could easily end up getting lazy and leaving salah completely. Even if not done whole-heartedly or because your parents push you, then you will still be gaining that reward. It is not an insult because you are still worshipping Allah swt, and He knows that it is hard for you to have complete
concentration.

Allah has blessed us with the life he has given us, Life that is a wodnerful thing and there is so much to experience on this Earth with this one life we have been granted ... And so i beleive that we should truly cherish it and enjoy every last second of it so nothing is wasted ... I beleive in following your heart and trusting your gut instincts, but my problem is that often these instincts may go against what mainstream Muslims may consider to be acceptable. And thats my issue.

Masha’allah, it is very good that you appreciate the life that Allah swt has given you…yes we should cherish every second that we are on this Earth. At the same time, we have a purpose to fulfil in this life, cos Allah swt did not create us except to worship Him. Therefore we will be accountable for our own deeds and the way we chose to follow.

"It is said that Allah sent down the teachings for us to follow, like a test of our faith to see if we pass or not ... But at the same time, others say that Allah has given us this one life and the ability to think for ourselves and make the most of our time here on Earth ..."

In order to enter Jannah we need to follow the teachings which are in the Qur’an and Sunnah, and as you mentioned before, it is a test. This whole life is a test. For sure, Allah swt has also given us the ability to think for ourselves, but as we believe in what He sent down, this should not contradict the teachings.

You are not the only one who has experienced these feelings..no way. I myself got confused when, at one point, thoughts against the teachings of Allah swt came into my mind. But just because this happens, it does not mean that these thoughts are right and guided, are from Allah, or that they are from ourselves...

Such thoughts can also be from Shaytan, who will try and lead us astray. I’m sure you know Surah An-Nas (Mankind):

"In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of An-Nas (Mankind).
The King of An-Nas (Mankind).
The God of An-Nas (Mankind).
From the evil of the whisperer who withdraws.
Who whispers in the breasts of An-Nas.
Of Jinn and An-Nas (Mankind)."

So Shaytan can whisper things into our hearts which we may perceive as instinct/our thoughts/beliefs etc. yet in fact it is misguidance. This is called waswaas…

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if an evil whisper from Shaytaan (Satan) tries to turn you away (O Muhammad) (from doing good), then seek refuge in Allaah. Verily, He is the All Hearer, the All Knower”
[Fussilat 41:36]

Some of the Sahaabah complained about the waswaas that was bothering them. Some of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah came to the Prophet and said to him, ‘We find in ourselves thoughts that are too terrible to speak of.’ He said, ‘Are you really having such thoughts?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘That is a clear sign of faith.’” (Narrated by Muslim)

So these thoughts were from Shaytan, and the Companions (RA) knew that they were not right, so they got worried..which was a clear sign of faith. Yet, of course, they seeked refuge in Allah and pushed the thoughts away, only obeying Allah swt and His Messenger (saw.)

"So how do u know which route to follow and stick to? I try to stick to the Islamic route where i can, but then some times I trust my instincts more, because i feel that Allah is responsible for whats in my heart anyway, and will guide me the right way. So if im being guided in all different directions, HOW DO I KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON ?!"

We know the route to follow is Qur’an and Sunnah, if anything goes against it then we should go against it too. If you do trust these instincts yet it is Shaytan whispering thoughts into your heart, does it mean you trust these thoughts more than you trust Allah? Of course not...

You feel that Allah will guide you to the right way and if you make du’aa then insha’allah He will, but you know if any thought comes into your mind or heart that is against His teachings, it cannot be guidance...rather it is misguidance from Shaytan.

Im finding it so difficult ... I feel like im being a hypocrite by one minute practising more Islamically and the next minute slacking or diverting a little in my views ....

Don’t worry too much, everyone suffers from such thoughts at some point. As I said, I did too, and it made me really depressed and confused, made me decrease my good deeds, made me doubt myself etc....but once I read about how Shaytan tries to lead people astray, I asked Allah swt to keep such thoughts from the Shaytan away, and alhamdulillah Allah did help...

Everyone’s imaan goes up and down…but seek protection in Allah from the whispers of Shaytan.
If you keep praying to Allah swt with sincerity, He will guide you insha’allah. If you remain confused or unsure of your views/beliefs, then the hardship is from Allah swt and you have to remain patient. You only need to see the teachings of Allah swt and the Prophet to know which way is right. Keep asking Allah for guidance and He will guide you insha’allah. May Allah keep you strong and guide you to the right way ameen.

I hope that this didn't sound like I was having a go at you at all. If I said anything wrong then please forgive me, and I hope that it was of some benefit to you.

Wasalamu alaykum

Two long essays... both of them very interesting. Thank you to both of you for being open and candid in your feelings, I think the only way any of us can improve ourselves is by being openly honest about them.

Regarding the original post. It is one of the pillars of Islam that there are 5 prayers a day. I was speaking to a close friend about this, and the fact that it is difficult to make time and to be focussed in every prayer etc.

He started to talk to me about all the things that Allah (swt) has given us; the ability to see, hear, smell, taste and touch and a discerning mind. Many good friends and family members who A) we love and love us. He's taught us the purpose of life and He's guided us, so we're not lost at sea with no map. He's made our mind and imaginaion so powerful that we can travel the whole world, even to the stars and and planets, and back and forward through time too - all without leaving the comfort of our armchair. He's given us hands to build and create new things. Legs to walk around the world as we please - and the ability to invent cars and planes so we can travel even further/faster. He's given us delicious food and nourishing water - if He willed he could make all the seas and rivers dry up and then we'd all be thirsty. He's given us the day to work and play and the night for us to rest. He's given us the different seasons so we can observe the beautful stages of life: from the birth of animals and plants in the spring - all the way until they die in the winter - and this is a reminder to us of OUR lives, and how short they are.

If I wanted to list everything that Allah (swt) has blessed us with, I would probably still be writing when I died of old age, or when the Internet got filled up...

And ALL He asks for from us, in return, is to recognise Him. Merely to thank Him for giving us so much. How long do the compulsary prayers take... less than 30 mins per day, right? That's LESS THAN 30 MINS, and for the other 23 1/2 hours we can do whatever we like. Is that REALLY so much to ask? REALLY?

We are all human, and we are likely to miss some of ou prayers... and guess what? Allah (swt) will forgive us, insha'Allah, because He forgives EVERY sin. So, even if we DON'T pray 5 times a day... the LEAST we should do is accept that perhaps we ought to. And ask Allah (swt) sincerly to forgive all our sins.

I hope I haven't been over the top. I don't want to come accross as lecturing. I am probably much worse than you... But really, you KNOW that you've been blessed with so much. Don't be ungrateful to the One Who made it all possible.

Just wanted to add my 2p worth.

Sometimes we are too hard and difficult on ourselves and our actions. Rather than helping us in our faith, it has the effect of moving us away. Remember that Islam is meant to be easy and not difficult. Once your faith becomes a burden on you, you need to begin to engage in concentrated muhassaba (self reflection/introspection), and consider where you are going wrong, and how you can achieve that balance.

Islam is a deen of fitrah (natural state). The reason why the Sahabas and other Salaf (radiAllahu anhum) were able to reach the great excellence in character and righteous superiority is because they found Islam EASY. Islam became a NATURAL state for them to live in. Living and following the tenants of Islam was so developed and cultured within them, that over time, it became part and parcel of their being as human beings. To not be a muslim was difficult, and went against their human state and biology. Islam literally ran through their veins.

One word used in the Qur'an to describe Islam is Al Yusra - The Easy Way - and that IS how Islam is meant to be. Easy, because it is natural to you.

We can reach the same high levels of the Sahabas if we learn to generate and polish those innate fitrah (natural) qualities within us that we were born with. Its a matter of learning and remembering to actually LIVE our faith so that it is part of your instinct, and your heartfelt desire of your mind, body and soul. Remember, humans have an inherent proclivity and make-up towards following the deen and goodness, so it is a matter that is within us from the very beginning, even if we may think otherwise.

angel_a1 wrote:

Hi, Im a new member to this site and glad i found it actually, as it seems perfect for what i was looking for ...

This is a problem i have faced for a good few years now so its nothing new, but even years on i still am not any clearer on what i think/beleive in and i really need to hear some feedback from others to see if its just me who faces this or what ....

I dont want to be blasted by all the fully-practising Muslims if i say something you dont agree with because thats the whole point of this post ... I am confused and am looking for a bit of clarity, so please respect that and dont just tell me im 'wrong' like a few people have done when ive asked for advice elsewhere. because thats just useless to me !

Ok ... I come from a mixed background family of muslim and non-muslims, so i have a mixed culture but have been brought up muslim as my non-muslim parent converted.

Although they arent all strict, some of my family are very strict muslims bordering on extremist. But luckily for me my parents arent that bad at all. My dad however is the strictest out of my parents, and is very forceful about it. Ie. moans until we pray, keeps checking every other minute to make sure we have, doesnt want us going out, etc ....

Anyway all this is besides the point, i just thought id say it to give a bit of a background to my issue.

I have grown up following the teachings and praying 5 times a day, etc.... but in recent years, my beleifs have started to change. I realised before that certain things i was doing was because i was TOLD to do them by my parents, and wasnt doing them bcoz of choice. I realised that was wrong, and i want to be able to give an answer and explanation for everything that i do - Not just the answer 'bcoz my mum says i have to !' . Lol.

My issue that has plagued me for a long time now is that i dont strictly agree with all of the rulings/teachings presented to us. I beleive in things such as no sex before marriage, and giving to the poor etc ... but im having issues with other things such as praying 5 times a day - I used to, and some days now i still do, but sometimes i find myself praying 2 or 3 times a day instead. Reason being, if im not in the right frame of mind to do it and im praying being angry about it or bcoz my dad is making me then i personally feel that is VERY wrong ... Praying should be something done whole-heartedly and with passion. So if im not feeling that way, then i think its an insult to pray in that state ... just robotically and with no meaning.

Allah has blessed us with the life he has given us, Life that is a wodnerful thing and there is so much to experience on this Earth with this one life we have been granted ... And so i beleive that we should truly cherish it and enjoy every last second of it so nothing is wasted ... I beleive in following your heart and trusting your gut instincts, but my problem is that often these instincts may go against what mainstream Muslims may consider to be acceptable. And thats my issue.

It is said that Allah sent down the teachings for us to follow, like a test of our faith to see if we pass or not ... But at the same time, others say that Allah has given us this one life and the ability to think for ourselves and make the most of our time here on Earth ...

So how do u know which route to follow and stick to? I try to stick to the Islamic route where i can, but then some times I trust my instincts more, because i feel that Allah is responsible for whats in my heart anyway, and will guide me the right way. So if im being guided in all different directions, HOW DO I KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON ?!

Im finding it so difficult ... I feel like im being a hypocrite by one minute practising more Islamically and the next minute slacking or diverting a little in my views ....

I feel like my views and beliefs are all topsy-turvy and i just dont know what i should be doing anymore ...

I keep praying to Allah and asking for his guidance, to help me throough my confusion, show me the right way and if i am wrong in my ways then to give me a clear sign and guide me onto the right path ....

But still here i am, confused and unsure of things ... which in a way makes me feel that maybe im NOT in the wrong ...

BUT I JUST DONT KNOW!!!

Sorry for the essay and a half, just needed to get it all off my chest and hear some views from you guys

Yeah, just want to add my view to the basket. Can you just be a little more specific when you say that Islam says one thing and your instincts say the total opposite, because now I've just got the praying issue. It is true that Islam can't be forced on anyone, when you pray you have to mean it. But let me ask you why do you pray? Maybe change you nia (intention). You're praying because Allah (swt) the King of Kings is INVITING you to come and "visit" him. You have a chance to get all the blessing, the 5 prayers get you to develop self discipline and punctuality and responsibility. If you're feeling angry and peed off, then maybe see this as a chance to escape. Doing wudhu is one thing that can help with that.

Hope that helped you, mate.

You seem to be looking for excuses in order to accept human failings.

Praying is not easy. Doing Qadha is also not easy. However this does not mean that when I miss prayer I make up arbitrary rules that I feel are good at the time.

The rules are universal. Some people will not be able to meet the requirements. At that point, we should ask for forgiveness, not say that the qur'an and sunnah is wrong - that leads to (or is) kufr since what you are saying is that the qur'an is wrong, and since we believe that is the word of Allah (swt), you are saying God is wrong.

Alcohol clouds the mind. Nobody drinks for the taste alone.

even small amounts of alcohol consumption is not allowed as it can lead to more. The effects are not personal. actions carried out when intoxicated has an effect on other people.

Please do not fall into the trap of asking for the religion to change to match our shortcomings. Islam is not a social club.

Good questions you got there. Firstly we owe Allah (swt) prayers. Think of it as rent. If we don't offer them on time then we are in "debt" and we are really lucky that Allah doesn't charge interest! If you become lazy and think OK I'm still rememberring Allah, eventually you may even forget what's compulsory, do you get what I mean? Like I said it's a way of keeping self-discipline.

Right, alcohol! The Quran says that intoxicants (alcohol included) are from the Satan. It agrees that there are benefits to alcohol, but the drawbacks outweigh the benefits by alot! If you want to relieve stress, drink water, if you want to be warm, have some honey, if you want to socialise, drink tea or juice. It's really not that difficult. Let me ask you that if you drink, for how long are you going to drink just a little bit? You might drink a bit at first but then you WOULD eventually get drunk. Even a bit impairs your judgement, it only takes a bit to put you over the limit. Do you know how many people a year DIE because of that? Alcohol gives you a false sense of security, there was this barrister who drank before going to court, she ended up calling the judge an "old bugger" and got done for contempt!
People say stupid and cruel stuff, do stupid or violent things and women get raped, and the worst bit is that they can't even remember. It's actually women who suffer from alcohol induced domestic violence.
Now do you still think alcohol is OK? Because I am GLAD that Allah (swt) has made it haram, no joke!
Mate, Islam is the Truth and it's there to help us. Whatever Allah tells us to do, there is always Hikma (wisdom) behind it, even if that particular person, scholar or you don't know at the time.

Did that help?

angel_a1 wrote:

Hi, Im a new member to this site and glad i found it actually, as it seems perfect for what i was looking for ...
This is a problem i have faced for a good few years now so its nothing new, but even years on i still am not any clearer on what i think/beleive in and i really need to hear some feedback from others to see if its just me who faces this or what ....
Sorry for the essay and a half, just needed to get it all off my chest and hear some views from you guys

First of all, Salaam to the new guy/girl.

SubhanAllah I was avoiding this for a few days because I knew it was going to be something BIG. Everything you said, I've felt too and Ya'qub probably has too. As a convert, that's how it goes down, I thought he would have said some of the stuff I'm going to say but from scanning his post, he hasn't.

My answer to this is quite lengthy, but I want you to plese read it all, so I’ve split it into part A and B. And part B is in two parts.

Part A:

I dont want to be blasted by all the fully-practising Muslims if i say something you dont agree with because thats the whole point of this post ... I am confused and am looking for a bit of clarity, so please respect that and dont just tell me im 'wrong' like a few people have done when ive asked for advice elsewhere. because thats just useless to me !

Everything you said is close to my heart. I understand. It’s not just you who faces this, in fact as a friend once told me “only by suffering with doubts do you come to find some solid certainty.”
It’s the case where you don’t want to be a bad person but you can’t help feeling this way. You’re only asking to be better and instead of helping people just say astaghfirrullah! You’re a hypocrite or aoodhubillah, the devil is whispering to you. Go and do tawbah!

I’ve only ever said “go and do tawbah!” to one person, and that was because he sent me chain mail. I can’t stand chain mail. Did that make you laugh? I hope so because this is where the healing starts. Trust. You learn to trust your shaykh/your murabbi (spiritual trainer)/confidant that it’s okay to make mistakes around them. That even when they see your weaknesses or vulgarities they won’t screw their faces up with disgust but will still be serene and give you whatever it is that you need. Allah loves those pious people who “lower the wing of humility”.

Most people here tried to explain why we have to do these things in terms of their benefits. Which is fine, but to me it only helps a little. What would help a lot is if there was some answer that just clicked and made it so that everything made perfect sense. This is where I go a little”social scientist” and “zen” on you.

B./ Part 1

First off the tradition we have is from the hands and hearts of those who went before us. As for their hands, well that’s easy to access, but as for their hearts, that’s rarer and takes suhba (spiritual company) to access. It rarer, but more precious, because it’s timeless and doesn’t change. The books and writings change, but not the spirit. As my shaykh said “the shari’ah that Allah gives can change with different times, but the sunnah of Allah never changes.”

The pages and books we have are qualified and affected by the context of the places and times our predecessors were living in. What was a good point in the time Imam Abu Hanifa RA may not seem quite so sharp in this time and place. In shari’ah, a scholar is not allowed to be a judge unless he understands the culture of the people he is a judging between. The cultural context has a massive effect on the flavour of Islam you get. It’s the same meat, its chicken the world over. But in India they make it with spices and coriander, in Buffalo New York the did something with the wings, in Africa they do something else, and the thing is, you might love chicken, but only if it’s cooked in the way that your city cooks it. Someone else’s chicken dish might be too spicy, someone else’s might be too bland. Is that the fault of the chicken? No it’s just the different cities use different spices in their recipes.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf said “when I converted to Islam, I immersed myself in the Islamic heritage of Morroco and Africa. Then I realised, I’m not African, I’m American. What we need is an American cultural facet to Islam.” What I’m adding to that is, we need a Western cultural facet to Islam, because as our beloved editor likes to remind us, we are British. We were raised in Britain, with British values, in British culture and when those of who are the children of immigrants ‘go back home’ the people there can tell straight off that we’re foreigners!

There is an Arabic Islam, a Persian Islam, an Indonesian Islam, an African Islam, a Pakistani Islam. It’s the same religion, same belief, same spirit, same values, same worship practices. What’s different is the spices they cook it with. Morrocco was as far west as the Muslims reached, times have changed and now we’re all over the place. We need a way to cook this chicken using the flavours we’re used to here.

If we can do this- No. When we do this, practising your faith will be a part of who you are and not just something you do. This will give you more relevant answers but it still won’t make it all click, it will just make you stop questioning it. Part 2 is about making it click.

B./ Part 2

As for making it all click, that’s the “zen” part. You have to take what you have and work at it. Imam Ghazali RA relates “By practising what you do know, you will come to know something you didn’t know.” Yeah, the five daily prayers may not make perfect sense, but stick at them. It’s like learning techniques in sport. Islam is a way of playing the sport of life. At first the technique feels awkward and fake. You feel as graceful as an elephant falling over, but keep practising the form and it teaches its secrets to you. You come to instinctively and intuitively know how to do each movement, where to place that part of your body etc and then your subtle senses wake up and you start to understand the speech of the birds.

I got a bit metaphorical there. You take your core practises (say the five pillars of Islam) and you practise them regularly. It doesn’t matter if you don’t pull off a perfect performance as long as you stick at it, the fitness instructors always say “do a little but do it regularly and don’t miss a session.” Mawlana Rumi says “If you have doubts about God and can only offer an agnostic prayer, then offer your dry agnostic prayer, for God in his mercy accepts bad coin…Though you have broken your vows a hundred times, come again come again!”

What I’m saying is, don’t try to make it all click now. Just have a basic understanding of it and then practise it even though you’re not fully sold on the idea. If anyone asks “Why do you that?” Just tell them “I’m still a beginner, ask me in a few years.” Don’t think you have to justify it here and now, don’t think “oh my God, am I doing it for the right reasons?” think “This is going to take some time to get it just right and I may screw up a lot in the beginning. But it is going to take time so it makes sense to start now.” When your friends or your ego (damn you ego! I’ll get you yet!) question your motivation and say, “well what do you get out of it now?” Tell them straight “The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. What do you get out of the one the step right now? Nothing, it’s quite hollow, it’s just a step. But it’s also everything, because with it, you get closer to your goal.” That’s how you have to see Islam, as a journey, and though at Allah tells us that it can be “an uphill struggle”, it’s a journey. Each step brings me closer to the destination.

The master is within your ownself. A Sufi once said about people “there’s nothing more tragic than seeing a creature that has the potential to be perfect, fail to realise that perfection.” The master knows all about happiness. Allah SWT says “Nothing in this universe can contain me but I can be in the heart of my servant.” Islam is about working at it because it brings you a little closer, closer to all things good, closer to Allah, closer to understanding the meanings of life.

The motto of Nike is “just do it.” Like Allah SWT say in surah Ya-Seen. “If He desires a thing, he says ‘be’ and it comes to be.” It sells shoes for Nike but we aren’t God, what we are is human. Our motto is, “still working at it.” That’s Islam. One of the woes of the modern world is that it’s immunised us against patience. If we want something we want it now, we’re not willing to invest the time and energy to get it. That’s not natural and its not healthy for us to be so impatient The natural way is totally “still working at it.” Because the journey is so enriching, it’s a pilgrimage and you are becoming more ‘you’ with every step of the way.

Or it’s like a woman having a baby. Employers sometimes don’t like to hire women because they might get pregnant and be off work for months. It’s that impatience thing again. Some career women ‘go get-ers’ wish they could give conceive and give birth in hours rather than months. But that’s not how babies are made. It takes 40 weeks on average from conception to birth. Something is growing inside you and every week it becomes more and perfect, until after ten months its ready and this perfect baby comes into the world and suddenly the mother is all like “it was totally worth the pain” and the dad stops looking at his watch and loses himself in the new life breathing in his hands. It’s all a journey to get to that perfect little baby, that new life and its perfectly natural to be “still working at it”, all your life. Because the best places to get to, are really far away.

But don’t loose hope and think, I can’t wait that long. Because as you practise it, like I said, it becomes more and more intuitive. And each time you go through it, it clicks just a little bit more and very quickly you find that you really do enjoy it.

Don’t worry, God loves you and wants you to be happy. Take it easy on yourself and you’ll easily take things up. God says in the Qur’an “I didn’t give you this to make it a burden upon you.” God totally wants us to be happy. Our Prophet SAW told us of God’s love saying “If you knew how much God loved you, your hearts would burst.”

Start small, stick at it and have good opinions about God. If anyone questions you, tell them “I’m still working at it.”

Inshallah.

I'm assuming you mean belief in spiritual stuff. What's the "cure"? Time. Prayer. Thought. I don't know.

wednesday wrote:

Question: Is there such thing as mental or spiritual muteness?

Yes.

wednesday wrote:

Are they two different things?

Yes.

wednesday wrote:

Is there a 'cure' or 'treatment' or rehab therapies for these?

Yes. Many types of treatment, I think. But people have different 'learning styles', just like in learning anything. Some people learn by listening, some by seeing/reading, some can only learn by 'doing'. You need to find out your learning style, otherwise you could waste time/effort, or worse, lose hope.

wednesday wrote:

How else can you phrase mental/ spiritual ability?

mental ability = ... IQ?
spiritual ability = ... Taqwa?

Not sure on this.

I like this thread