"Ya'qub" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

Also, what do you mean by extra celebrations, extra worship done by the Pakistanis? Can you name a few please inshaaAllah.

I was just saying that in my experience Pakistanis are more into celebrating mawlid, doing group zhikr, intercession of 'saints', other 'holy days' etc. How can you say that more of this takes place in the middle-east behind closed doors, even though you've never been there? seems strange.

lol, chill ya'qub. no one is arguing.

Of the top of my head, Shaykh Abdul Haim Murad, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Shaykh Habib ali al jifiri, Shaykh Asad Saeed Sagarji, Shaykh Nuh Keller, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, Shaykh Nazim Adil Haqqani and many more scholars all celebrate mawlid, do group dhikr, believe in waseelah etc. Note none of the above mentioned shayukhs are Pakistani. Scholars from the past such as, Ibn Arabic (ra), Imam Suyuti (ra), Mawlana Rumi (ra), Imam Ghazali, Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani (ra) all believed in the above.

A friend of my uncle lived in Madinah for a few years (a white revert!), also stayed with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. Anyway, he was saying he use to attend (every night or so) dhikr, mawlid gatherings and was shocked to see so many brelvi arabs there. Syria and Yemen are the same. There’s also a village in Yemen where there are just awliyahs living there. Also, my beloved teacher has travelled the Arab and he has told me that this all exists.

[color=red]Imam Bukhari was born in Bukhara (Central Asia)
Imam Muslim was born in Naishapur (Iran) and this was the capital of hundreds of Aimat-ul-Wilayah.
Some of Imam Bukhari’s shuyukh were also from Naishapur
Imam Tirmidhi was born in Tirmidh
Imam Abu Dawood was from Sajistan and he was an afgan. He received directly from the shayookh of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim.
Imam Farabri (can also be pronounced as firabri) belonged to Farabra and he was the student of Imam Bukhari.
Imam Nisai and Imam Ibn-e-Maja were from Iran.

As for the 4 Imams of fiqh, all of them except Imam Malik belonged to the Arab worlds; Imam-e-Azam Abu Hanifa belonged to Baghdad, Imam Shafi’ee was brought up in Makkah and Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal studied in Haramain but returned to Baghdad.

Even the Compnaions of the Prophet had migrated to these places for the propagation of Islam. One thousand five hundred sahaba used to reside in Koofa. [/color]

You're probably thinking what's that got to do with anything, well people always seem to think It's the Pakistanis that invent all these things and it's the Arab scholars who are right and Pakistani/India Scholars are wrong, full of it bidah but, all the above scholars were all from the asian subcontinent.

Theres nothing wrong with a healthy debate among muslims. Its how we increase our understanding of Islam and become better people.

At this point im just going to jump in and provide input. Firstly inregards to the celebration of the prophets (pbuh) birthday the scholars themselves are divided as to whether it is permissable in Islam or not. It actually originates from Eygpt not Pakistan... but is most notably celebrated in Pakistan.
Personally speaking i think we should be allowed to celebrate the prophets (pbuh) birthday. Since we celebrate my brothers & sisters birthday (and obviously my own) theres no real reason to not celebrate the prophets (pbuh).
However that in itself is no arguement however according to popular hadith the prophet (pbuh) often recommended fasting on Mondays as that was the day he was born.

Worship of Allah (swt) is worship of Allah (swt). We as humans can never do enough worship or praise of Allah(swt). Ofcourse the five prayers and following the sunnah are compulsary but theres nothing stopping you from doing extra. Its like studying, they give you a prescribed reading list but there is nothing wrong with doing extra studying to increase your own understanding and for your own benefit.
Im not entirely sure why we're stuck on this issue of doing extra worship, bcoz imo theres no such thing. The sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) which incorporates every part of your life from how to get up, to how to eat to how to leave the home is ALL forms of worship. Following the sunnah is a form of worship of Allah (swt).

Inregards to dhikr (i dont know why the hell they spell it like that since its pronounced with a 'z' instead of a 'd' anyho) imo it can not be a form of biddah. As dhikr is basically the remembrance of Allah (swt). And there are several places where the remembrance of allah (swt) is encouraged as well as commanded. For example, a popular quote is: remember Allah – standing and sitting, and lying down." or my favourite 'remember Allah(swt) in a gathering and Allah(swt) will remember you in a much greater gathering. I dont have the references with me at the moment if you want I can search for them, you need only ask. And anything that hinders the rememberance of Allah (swt) is forbidden. Therefore it is encouraged. You say the prophet (pbuh) never did it, but your forgetting the prophet (pbuh) used to keep remembering Allah every moment, all the time as reported by Ummul-Mumineen (mother of the faithful) Hazrath A’yesha(RZ).

So im a lil confused as to what we are sketchy on here?

"Ya'qub" wrote:

Because that verse says that the religion is completed/perfected. Something is not perfect if you either take away from it or add to it. I wasn't saying you were rejecting it, I was pointing out that the verse can be interpreted to be against your point of view.

That hadith which i stated also says its ok to invent new matters. Thats why when we decide to take an hadith or an ayah we must look at the history of that hadith, which situation and environment it was revealed in, if its an ayah, what city it was revealed it, whether if it was a makkan or madani ayah and then see if there are other ahadith or ayat which link in to the ayah/hadith.

That verse was the last ayat of the Quran ever revealed.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

That verse was the last ayat of the Quran ever revealed.

Yeah and? Ahadith and Quran can never contradict each other.

To be honest, I don't wanna discuss this further, there are books and books on the subject but for me it can only ever come down to each individual's personal experiences. I trust that Allah (swt) will guide me if I make sincere du'aa, and some of the things I've seen have put me off.

I REALLY enjoy Dhikr, privately, it is a time when I feel extremely close to Allah (swt) and not worried about matters of dunya. I would like to be able to keep myself in a state of meditation for longer, but it is a struggle not to get distracted. At the group dhikrs I've been to, I've been completely put off from my personal rememberance by loud wailing and people shaking their heads around, similar to Christians having 'experiences of the Holy Ghost'. I personally didn't like it and felt rather distressed by the situation. If people like it, then thats up to them, as I've said constantly I'm not coming down on what other people want to do.

The other thing I found strange was the chanting together. I didn't see much difference between football chanting and this; its a bonding experience but not exactly related to Allah (swt). You can say 'but people are saying Allah's names', but not always. At one point they were shouting "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Aah! Aah! Aah! Aah!" etc. I found this very intimidating. Then they were singing 'Astaghfirullah' in such a nursery-rhyme manner, it seemed to me to cheapen the words which were being said.

I can't see any benefit of this over private dhikr, which it is unanimously agreed was performed by the Prophet (saw). If its good enough for him its good enough for me. If the benefit of this is to do with any particular 'barakah' from someone else being in the room, that their 'closeness to Allah (swt)' somehow makes you closer to Allah (swt), then I disagree completely. If I ever thought Islam was a personality-cult, in which you had to go through other people to get to Allah (swt), then I would never have become a Muslim. I would even go so far as to ask why would Allah (swt) send a new revelation after Isa (as), because there is enough hierarchies and sainthoods in Christianity, and I thought Islam was supposed to be a purer, less complicated religion.

Well, you may argue that this was just one experience and not every thing is the same. But the gethering I was attending was the largest Sufi sect/group in the World. If they're 'wrong' and some groups are right, then that opens a whole can of worms - if some groups are 'on the strait path' and some are not, then how can I ever be sure (or anyone for that matter) that I've made the correct decision? What if I've joined one of the 'deviant groups'? Then I'm pretty stuffed!

Ibn Kathir quotes:

Quote:

"Awf ibn Malik reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'The Jews split into 71 sects: one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 sects: 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose hand is my soul, my Ummah will split into 73 sects: one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.' Someone asked, 'O Messenger ofAllah (Peace be upon him), who will they be?' He replied, 'The main body of the Muslims (al-Jama'ah).' Awf ibn Malik is the only one who reported this Hadith, and its isnad is acceptable." And in another version of this Hadith the Prophet (Peace be upon him) goes onto say that the saved sect, "...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 89)

So onto my experiences of a 'different' Shaykh. He had an apartment with a swimming pool. This is in the middle East where many people don't have enough water to drink!! How far was this from the Prophet Isa (as) who's only two possesions were a comb and a cup but, when he saw a man drinking with his hands and another flattening his hair with his hands, he gave them both away?!

So I came to the conclusion that, rather than risk picking the 'wrong' shaykh or group or whatever to put all my trust into (and therefore my place of eternal rest), I would stick as closely to the Quran and Sunnah as possible and avoid any controversial areas. All the while making du'aa for Allah (swt) to guide me.

I may make mistakes, but in the end at least they're [b]MY [/b]mistakes.

If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you. But don't try to make it 'fit' for everybody, understand that some people may have different experiences than you, or you will risk becoming as 'close-minded' as people you are criticising.

Seraph, the reason its spealt 'Dhikr', is because in Arabic its NOT pronounced 'Zikr' there are different letters and 'Dh' is about the closest you can get using English letters.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

Seraph, the reason its spealt 'Dhikr', is because in Arabic its NOT pronounced 'Zikr' there are different letters and 'Dh' is about the closest you can get using English letters.

interesting... ill make a mental note of that and save it onto a flash drive.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

At the group dhikrs I've been to, I've been completely put off from my personal rememberance by loud wailing and people shaking their heads around

There is an hadith in which the Prophet said: Do dhikr like a mad man. So if someone was to walk past you and see you, they would call you crazy. (I need to find the reference for this)

Quote:

The other thing I found strange was the chanting together. I didn't see much difference between football chanting and this; its a bonding experience but not exactly related to Allah (swt). You can say 'but people are saying Allah's names', but not always. At one point they were shouting "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Aah! Aah! Aah! Aah!" etc. I found this very intimidating. Then they were singing 'Astaghfirullah' in such a nursery-rhyme manner, it seemed to me to cheapen the words which were being said.

I think you are talking about the naqshabandi dhikr, are you sure they were saying ooh? and not Hoo? Because Hoo means He for Allah (swt). Sorry but cheapen the words! Qari Sudais recites in a melodious way, in fact there is a hadith where the Prophet says beautify your voices. Anyway, it MUST be a personal thing, i attend two group dhikr gatherings a week and we chant in a rhythmic way and it is so peaceful maashaAllah. You gota love the way they recite Surah Sharh though! Yay im going tonight!

Quote:

I can't see any benefit of this over private dhikr, which it is unanimously agreed was performed by the Prophet (saw).

Remember the Lord collectively and indvidually, remember your Lord sitting, standing and laying on your sides. No limits.

Quote:

Well, you may argue that this was just one experience and not every thing is the same. But the gethering I was attending was the largest Sufi sect/group in the World. If they're 'wrong' and some groups are right, then that opens a whole can of worms - if some groups are 'on the strait path' and some are not, then how can I ever be sure (or anyone for that matter) that I've made the correct decision? What if I've joined one of the 'deviant groups'? Then I'm pretty stuffed!

Sufism is not a sect. There are tareeqahs i.e. Naqshabandi Haqqani, Minhaj-ul-Quran, organisations. I'll speak for MQ, MQ is not a sect because sects work againts each other and MQ is against that. Anyhow, it comes down to aqaid as well and a load of other things that require deep studying etc.

Quote:

So I came to the conclusion that, rather than risk picking the 'wrong' shaykh or group or whatever to put all my trust into (and therefore my place of eternal rest), I would stick as closely to the Quran and Sunnah as possible and avoid any controversial areas. All the while making du'aa for Allah (swt) to guide me.

Groups do stick to the Quran and Sunnah, after all, that is where they get the teachings from! Again i'll give MQ as an example, i wana work for Islam, help the people out there, study etc, now i can't do that all on my own but allhamdulilah there is an organisation that is already set up that follows the Quran and Sunnah in its completeness and does all that i want to do.

[url=http://www.minhajsisters.com/home/articles/index.minhaj?dir=&id=201]Should we join a Ja'ma?[/url] - MaashaAllah it is a very good article, it's only short. I recommend that you read it inshaaAllah.

That's all great. But I'm suspect about the article because its intention IS to recruit new members at the end of the day. kinda how like Beast wanted sources about the khilafah from a separate source other than HT.

But you didn't address my final point which I will repeat unless you missed it.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you. But don't try to make it 'fit' for everybody, understand that some people may have different experiences than you, or you will risk becoming as 'close-minded' as people you are criticising.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

So I came to the conclusion that, rather than risk picking the 'wrong' shaykh or group or whatever to put all my trust into (and therefore my place of eternal rest), I would stick as closely to the Quran and Sunnah as possible and avoid any controversial areas. All the while making du'aa for Allah (swt) to guide me.

SubhanAllah well said and i totally agree with what your saying. Everything you just said makes total sense to me.

Allah (swt) has given us the gift of intelligence. Each and everyone of us is capable of reading and understanding the Qur’an and sunnah yet most of look to a shaykh for answers. Why is this? We have to bear in mind these shaykhs are humans just like us and the information that they give us is THIER understand and interpretation of the Qur'an and sunnah. We should read them ourselves and draw our own conclusions as to what is right and wrong.

@ Seraphim i say zikr too but apparently the correct pronunciation is dhikr and apparently its dhur not zhur (which i only recently found out).

"Naz" wrote:

We should read them ourselves and draw our own conclusions as to what is right and wrong.

err.. hold on a second, I think that may be going too far!

I prefer to look at what scholars of all persuasions interpret the Quran to mean before making up my own decision.

I'm assuming you don't read Classical Arabic. if not, then what your reading is a translation of the Quran which already has the translators' interpretations in it.

For me the best method is [b]triangulation[/b] (a favourite of Sociology A-Level teachers!) To look at a particular verse, especially the 'unclear verses' from as many different opinions as possible i.e. different translations and different tafseer (commentaries). THEN draw your own conclusion as to what is right and wrong. The most important thing is to always ask Allah (swt) for guidance, and of course in your daily prayers your pray that He shows us the strait path.

I'm not saying throw away hundreds of years of scholarship, I'm just saying don't put all your eggs in one basket either!

"Noor" wrote:

See last post.

Then you acuse me of pointless posts!

"Ya'qub" wrote:

Well I know I'll be greatly outnumbered cos Pakistanis tend to always have extra celebrations, but I've learnt from many reliable sources, that the Prophet didn't do anything extra on these days. Therefore any extra form of worship done is a bi'dah. And if someone says 'but what is the harm of doing some extra worship etc' my reply would be 'if the was particular benefit, wouldn't the Prophet himself done it?'

The same goes for group dhikr.

I don't know of any reliable sources that say the Prophet and the Sahaba (ra) sat round in circles chanting or singing about Allah (swt). If there are sources, then the matter is completely different. But (for me) everything *should* need a proof. Otherwise it is only a few steps away from everyone going to church to sing hymns and burn incense.

I don't mean to offend anybody. I have an open mind and would like to hear alternative interpretations. This is just what I've been taught, and everything I've been taught on the matter has been backed up by Qur'an and ahadith. I don't have sources available but should be able to get them, if needed, insha'Allah.

I kinda agree with you on that point, plus celebrating the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) birthday is it allowed?

"yaqub" wrote:

I thank you Noor for your sources. But for me, none of them are fully conclusive. Yes, you can interpret them to back up your point, but some can be quite as easily interpreted to back up the other side, or to remain neutral. I'm sure you're not ignoring "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion" (5:3) and I'm sure you're aware of the hadith saying that the worse practice is introducing new elements of faith, but I agree that these also doesn't really come down 100% conclusively on either side either.

You took the words right out of my mouth and im not joking btw.

"Noor" wrote:

due to narrowmindess (is that a word) and not wanting to look outside the box.

A better word is ignorance.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

"Naz" wrote:

We should read them ourselves and draw our own conclusions as to what is right and wrong.

err.. hold on a second, I think that may be going too far!

I prefer to look at what scholars of all persuasions interpret the Quran to mean before making up my own decision.

I'm assuming you don't read Classical Arabic. if not, then what your reading is a translation of the Quran which already has the translators' interpretations in it.

For me the best method is [b]triangulation[/b] (a favourite of Sociology A-Level teachers!) To look at a particular verse, especially the 'unclear verses' from as many different opinions as possible i.e. different translations and different tafseer (commentaries). THEN draw your own conclusion as to what is right and wrong. The most important thing is to always ask Allah (swt) for guidance, and of course in your daily prayers your pray that He shows us the strait path.

I'm not saying throw away hundreds of years of scholarship, I'm just saying don't put all your eggs in one basket either!

so tell me this when the first scholar came to be where did he get his knowledge from? Certainty wasn’t through listening to other scholars as there wasnt any at the time. He had no choice but to look to the Qur'an and hadith for guidance then pray to Allah (swt) that he might make the right interpretation. There is nothing wrong with listening to what scholars have to say as long as you dont hang onto their every word. Go and double check what they have said and see if you agree with it. Different scholars will have different opinions on different matters. They might be saying one thing and you might have another view on the matter.

And another point if we have scholars then what’s the point in reading the Qur'an with the English meaning to fully understand what is written?

Back in the days ppl turned to scholars for guidance coz they couldn’t read that is understandable but in this day and age we are all educated there is nothing stopping us from going out there as seeking the truth.

ps the Qur'an i have has the English version but where the scholar has made assumptions its in brackets which i miss out.

"Naz" wrote:

"Ya'qub" wrote:

"Naz" wrote:

We should read them ourselves and draw our own conclusions as to what is right and wrong.

err.. hold on a second, I think that may be going too far!

I prefer to look at what scholars of all persuasions interpret the Quran to mean before making up my own decision.

I'm assuming you don't read Classical Arabic. if not, then what your reading is a translation of the Quran which already has the translators' interpretations in it.

For me the best method is [b]triangulation[/b] (a favourite of Sociology A-Level teachers!) To look at a particular verse, especially the 'unclear verses' from as many different opinions as possible i.e. different translations and different tafseer (commentaries). THEN draw your own conclusion as to what is right and wrong. The most important thing is to always ask Allah (swt) for guidance, and of course in your daily prayers your pray that He shows us the strait path.

I'm not saying throw away hundreds of years of scholarship, I'm just saying don't put all your eggs in one basket either!

so tell me this when the first scholar came to be where did he get his knowledge from? Certainty wasn’t through listening to other scholars as there wasnt any at the time. He had no choice but to look to the Qur'an and hadith for guidance then pray to Allah (swt) that he might make the right interpretation. There is nothing wrong with listening to what scholars have to say as long as you dont hang onto their every word. Go and double check what they have said and see if you agree with it. Different scholars will have different opinions on different matters. They might be saying one thing and you might have another view on the matter.

Isnt he saying that?

"Funzo" wrote:

I kinda agree with you on that point, plus celebrating the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) birthday is it allowed?

Of course it's allowed!

http://www.minhajuk.org/artikelen.php?parent_id=1143678206

^There are three parts, lengthy but defo worth the read.

"You" wrote:

The Prophet and the Companions were simply better people than us. They did all the Islamic stuff 24/7 - Remembered Allah (swt) 24/7 etc etc.

We are not the same.

By doing this dhikr, reading extra nawaafil etc etc, we still probably do a whole lot less than what the pious people did on normal days.

How many of us sleep for a short while and then get up and read nawaafil for the remainder of the night, every night?

How often do we fast?

What is not allowed is to turn this optional worship into something which is compulsory - at this point it WILL become Bid'ah.

As for sources for group dhikr, there are.

Quote:

Hadhrat Abu Sa`eed Khudri relates that once Hadhrat Mu`awiyah visited the mosque and saw a circle (of reciters). He asked,

"What has made you sit?"

They said, "We have assembled here to remember Allah."

He [Mu`awiyah] said, "By Allah you did not sit except for this purpose?"

They affirmed, "We did not sit except for this."

Hadhrat Mu`awiyah then told them, "I did not ask you to swear on account of any malice. None of you can match me for scanty narration of the Prophet (s.a.w.) (and as such have narrated very few traditions about him). The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) once visited a gathering of his companions and inquired,

`What has made you assemble here?'

They answered, `We have gathered to remember Allah and praise Him for having led us to Islam and granted this favour to us.'

The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) inquired, `Do you affirm by Allah that it is so?'

The Holy Prophet's Companions affirmed, `By Allah we are sitting here for this purpose only.'

He [the Prophet s.a.w.] said, `I have not put you on oath on account of any doubt, but angel Jibreel had visited me and told me that Allah felt proud of you among the angels.'"

[From Sahih Muslim, and also in the Riyadh us-Saliheen of Imam Nawawi.]

http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/sufishar/dhikr.html

Quote:

Bukhari narrated in his book from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (s) said, "Allah, Almighty and Exalted, has angels who seek the people of Dhikr. If they find the people of Dhikr they encompass them until they reach the first heaven. And Allah asks his angels, 'What are my servants doing?' The angels say, 'O Allah, they are praising You and glorifying You and they are making Dhikr.' Allah says, 'Did they see Me?' The angels answer, 'No, they didn't see You.' Then Allah asks, 'How would it be if they were to see Me?' The angels reply, 'O Allah, if they were to see You, they would be making more praise of You and more glorification of You and more Dhikr of You.' And Allah asks 'What are they asking for?' The angels say, 'They are asking for Your Paradise.' Allah asks, 'Did they see My Paradise?' The angels answer, 'No, Our Lord.' Allah continues, 'How would it be if they saw My Paradise?' The angels reply, 'They would be more attracted and more eager to reach it.' Then Allah asks them, 'Of what are they afraid?' And the angels say, 'They are afraid of hellfire.' and Allah asks, 'How would it be if they saw my Hellfire?' and they reply, 'They would be running more and more away from it and asking more and more protection from it.' Then Allah said,' I am making you all My witnesses: that I am forgiving them of all their sins.' Then one angel asked, 'O our Lord, there is among these people one who is not from them, he came only to ask for something from one of them.' Allah said, 'Those are my beloved ones who are making My Dhikr. Anyone who comes into their circle will be forgiven, and I am forgiving him.'"

http://www.naqshbandi.org/topics/dhikr.htm

yes, they are web sources, and do not give hadith number or chapter, so you may want to confirm.

SubhaanAllah, inshaaAllah i will try to my best to get the actual references.

Cool ill take your word for it and read it later, then use it as an argument however i will require some sources which you arent affliated with.

and you said there wasnt a lot of islamic discussion! lol i think i am responsible of bringing up a 1/4 of them.

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

I kinda agree with you on that point, plus celebrating the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) birthday is it allowed?

Of course it's allowed!

http://www.minhajuk.org/artikelen.php?parent_id=1143678206

^There are three parts, lengthy but defo worth the read.

"Noor" wrote:

That's all great. But I'm suspect about the article because its intention IS to recruit new members at the end of the day. kinda how like Beast wanted sources about the khilafah from a separate source other than HT.

do you at least acknowledge that many scholars forbid celebrating mawlid?

I don't wanna say either way - i'm not confident enough. But its not enough to simply back up your point from the same source over and over again.

have you even considered looking at it from the other angle noor?

"Ya'qub" wrote:

If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you. But don't try to make it 'fit' for everybody, understand that some people may have different experiences than you, or you will risk becoming as 'close-minded' as people you are criticising.

Ooh sorry! I'm not saying everyone must do group dhikr, mawlid etc but what i am saying is that they shouldn't condemn it either if proofs are given. Yes i no everyone has different experiences and what have you but they should keep an open mind about the practise and realise that some people do have proofs to back up their claims. Yes i no some people interpret different ahadith and ayat in different ways but if a scholar interprets a particular ayat or hadith then that act shouldn’t be condemned. I'm going in circles

"Ya'qub" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

I kinda agree with you on that point, plus celebrating the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) birthday is it allowed?

Of course it's allowed!

http://www.minhajuk.org/artikelen.php?parent_id=1143678206

^There are three parts, lengthy but defo worth the read.

"Noor" wrote:

That's all great. But I'm suspect about the article because its intention IS to recruit new members at the end of the day. kinda how like Beast wanted sources about the khilafah from a separate source other than HT.

do you at least acknowledge that many scholars forbid celebrating mawlid?

I don't wanna say either way - i'm not confident enough. But its not enough to simply back up your point from the same source over and over again.

have you even considered looking at it from the other angle noor?

Ya'qub i was a HT for a year, then a hardcore wob for a while so i didn't approve of mawlid, waseelah, pictures etc. I was as hardcore as you get but allhamdulilah i saw the light SO yes i have acknowledged that scholars have different views but now, having seen the proofs i can say with 100% confidence that milad-un-nabi (saw), waseelah etc is allowed.

@ NOOR: now your a hardcore sufi, only joking.

"Noor" wrote:

"Ya'qub" wrote:

If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you. But don't try to make it 'fit' for everybody, understand that some people may have different experiences than you, or you will risk becoming as 'close-minded' as people you are criticising.

Ooh sorry! I'm not saying everyone must do group dhikr, mawlid etc but what i am saying is that they shouldn't condemn it either if proofs are given. Yes i no everyone has different experiences and what have you but they should keep an open mind about the practise and realise that some people do have proofs to back up their claims. Yes i no some people interpret different ahadith and ayat in different ways but if a scholar interprets a particular ayat or hadith then that act shouldn’t be condemned. I'm going in circles

that's the POINT!!

i didn't condemn anybody. i didn't condemn any act.

i was asked about ashura by Joey, then by you on more general matters. I gave MY reasons for ME not doing particular acts.

I didn't condemn anyone, in fact i APPLAUDED it: "If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you." It wasn't a sarcastic comment.

I just thought I my viewpoint was being attacked because it didn't fit in with the view of a few people on the forum. I was explaining how I came to my conclusions. I read your evidences, and was just suggesting that you look at them with a more open mind and at least ACKNOWLEDGE that they aren't 100% clear.

Here is an example of a clear message of the Qur'an:

Quote:

By time, Verily! Man is in loss, Except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth, and recommend one another to patience.

Your proofs were not clear-cut.

In the end we are all answerable to Allah (swt) alone.

Your views fitted in with me well sort of did.

"Naz" wrote:

so tell me this when the first scholar came to be where did he get his knowledge from? Certainty wasn’t through listening to other scholars as there wasnt any at the time. He had no choice but to look to the Qur'an and hadith for guidance then pray to Allah (swt) that he might make the right interpretation. There is nothing wrong with listening to what scholars have to say as long as you dont hang onto their every word. Go and double check what they have said and see if you agree with it. Different scholars will have different opinions on different matters. They might be saying one thing and you might have another view on the matter.

And another point if we have scholars then what’s the point in reading the Qur'an with the English meaning to fully understand what is written?

Back in the days ppl turned to scholars for guidance coz they couldn’t read that is understandable but in this day and age we are all educated there is nothing stopping us from going out there as seeking the truth.

ps the Qur'an i have has the English version but where the scholar has made assumptions its in brackets which i miss out.

After every century Allah (swt) sends a revivor to the earth i.e a scholar and this will continue till the day of judgement. Ummul mumineen hadrat Ayesha (ra) was a scholar, she used to teach the men as well as the women!

Scholars have dedicated their entire life to Islam and have studied Quran and Ahadith inside out so they no everything unlike us. Take these suicide bombers for an example, they justify their actions by saying their is an ayah in the Quran which says it's ok to kill, now we all no that is wrong, but if they had a teacher to tell them what that ayah meant and in what situation it should be applied then there wouldn't be any suicide bombings etc.

If there was no need of scholars then what was the need of the Prophet (saw)? Allah (swt) sent a book down for mankind and a Prophet (saw), a teacher to explain its teachings. It's like why do you go to school and study when you can read the same thing out of a text book? It is because you need a teacher to sit down and explain things to you. Unless you have studied Islam to its core then only will you be able to inetrpet ayat and ahadith for yourself.

And when we do take stuff from scholars we are in fact taking it from Quran and Ahadith because that is where they get their sources from. Islam teaches us not to blindly follow so we should also check out what other scholars are saying and then come up with what we think is right.