Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 19:39 #31
I want to add here that I do try not to do the bad I really do but sometimes I just can't help myself. The bad is my anger which leads me into all sorts of bad trouble and plus there's a whole load of other bads I won't go into
Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 19:41 #32
No need to explain, you're not alone
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 20:16 #33
Thank you. I don't know what you believe but I also ask the saints the ones I can remember the names of to put in a good word for me then I don't feel so alone
Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 20:19 #34
Maybe this is why Allah (swt) allows us too keep sinning...
Your conscience really can be wiped clean
We talk about “washing away” our sins and “feeling dirty” after doing something
naughty, but is this just a quirk of our language, or are moral and physical
cleanliness really intertwined?
Chen-Bo Zhong and Katie Liljenquist first demonstrated that the two concepts
really are linked in our minds. Participants asked to recall a recent unethical deed
they had committed were subsequently more likely to convert word fragments
(e.g. W__H) into a cleansing-related word (e.g. WASH vs. WISH) than were
participants who recalled something ethical they had done.
Furthermore, participants who recalled an unethical deed were more likely than
participants who recalled an ethical deed (67 per cent vs. 33 per cent), to choose
an antiseptic wipe as a free gift rather than a pencil.
And it seems physical cleansing can actually clear our moral conscience. A
different set of participants were again asked to describe something unethical
they had done in the past. Some of them were then offered an antiseptic wipe to
clean their hands. Next, all the participants were asked to volunteer to help a
research student who desperately needed participants. Remarkably, fewer of the
participants who’d wiped their hands clean volunteered – 41 per cent of them did
compared with 74 per cent of the participants who hadn’t cleaned their hands.
Apparently, their moral stains having been washed away, the participants who’d
cleaned their hands subsequently felt less of a compulsion to compensate for
their previous unethical deed.
The findings raise intriguing questions about the effect washing might have on
people’s future moral behaviour. “Would cleansing ironically license unethical
behaviour?”, the researchers asked. “It remains to be seen whether clean hands
really do make a pure heart, but our studies indicate that they at least provide a
clean conscience after moral trespass” they said.
Zhong, C-B. & Liljenquist, K. (2006). Washing away your sins: Threatened
morality and physical cleansing, 313, 1451-1452. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5792/1451
Author weblink: http://tinyurl.com/ktpm7
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 20:20 #35
but also urges us to ask for forgiveness*
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I want to add here that I do try not to do the bad I really do but sometimes I just can't help myself. The bad is my anger which leads me into all sorts of bad trouble and plus there's a whole load of other bads I won't go into
you cant ignore your community and friends.
Not a good idea.
—
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 20:26 #37
ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:
Maybe this is why Allah (swt) allows us too keep sinning...
Your conscience really can be wiped clean
We talk about “washing away” our sins and “feeling dirty” after doing something
naughty, but is this just a quirk of our language, or are moral and physical
cleanliness really intertwined?
Chen-Bo Zhong and Katie Liljenquist first demonstrated that the two concepts
really are linked in our minds. Participants asked to recall a recent unethical deed
they had committed were subsequently more likely to convert word fragments
(e.g. W__H) into a cleansing-related word (e.g. WASH vs. WISH) than were
participants who recalled something ethical they had done.
Furthermore, participants who recalled an unethical deed were more likely than
participants who recalled an ethical deed (67 per cent vs. 33 per cent), to choose
an antiseptic wipe as a free gift rather than a pencil.
And it seems physical cleansing can actually clear our moral conscience. A
different set of participants were again asked to describe something unethical
they had done in the past. Some of them were then offered an antiseptic wipe to
clean their hands. Next, all the participants were asked to volunteer to help a
research student who desperately needed participants. Remarkably, fewer of the
participants who’d wiped their hands clean volunteered – 41 per cent of them did
compared with 74 per cent of the participants who hadn’t cleaned their hands.
Apparently, their moral stains having been washed away, the participants who’d
cleaned their hands subsequently felt less of a compulsion to compensate for
their previous unethical deed.
The findings raise intriguing questions about the effect washing might have on
people’s future moral behaviour. “Would cleansing ironically license unethical
behaviour?”, the researchers asked. “It remains to be seen whether clean hands
really do make a pure heart, but our studies indicate that they at least provide a
clean conscience after moral trespass” they said.
Zhong, C-B. & Liljenquist, K. (2006). Washing away your sins: Threatened
morality and physical cleansing, 313, 1451-1452. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5792/1451
Author weblink: http://tinyurl.com/ktpm7
Well wudu cleanses us
Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 20:27 #38
You wrote:
laila wrote:
I want to add here that I do try not to do the bad I really do but sometimes I just can't help myself. The bad is my anger which leads me into all sorts of bad trouble and plus there's a whole load of other bads I won't go into
you cant ignore your community and friends.
Not a good idea.
What do you mean Im great with community and friends it's family I can't stand
Submitted by TPOS on 24 November, 2011 - 20:27 #39
laila wrote:
Well wudu cleanses us
(That wasn't the point)
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by laila on 24 November, 2011 - 20:28 #40
What is the point sorry
Submitted by TPOS on 30 November, 2011 - 14:51 #41
Sit with those who constantly repent, for they have the softest hearts (Umar ra)
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by Bilan on 30 November, 2011 - 21:15 #42
laila wrote:
Thank you. I don't know what you believe but I also ask the saints the ones I can remember the names of to put in a good word for me then I don't feel so alone
isnt that a form of shirk?
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
Submitted by TPOS on 30 November, 2011 - 21:16 #43
bilan wrote:
laila wrote:
Thank you. I don't know what you believe but I also ask the saints the ones I can remember the names of to put in a good word for me then I don't feel so alone
isnt that a form of shirk?
Difference of opinion.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by TPOS on 30 November, 2011 - 21:18 #44
I mean there is a difference of opinion on whether you can make dua and asking for someone (the Prophet or a saint etc)to intercede.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by Foysol89 on 1 December, 2011 - 00:59 #45
That's one for the scholars me thinks.
I don't really know, i wouldn't think you should ask anyone to intercede for you, i mean it's different to asking someone to make dua for you. Thing is though i know the prophet will intecede for his ummah. Anyway i'll just leave it...i have no clue
—
Lets reunite the ummah under one flag LA ILAHA IL ALLAH MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH
Submitted by Bilan on 1 December, 2011 - 18:00 #46
Difference of opinion? I havent heard of that. When someone is making dua/asking for forgiveness your not supposed to use 'saints' or other people/things as a means of doing so. Doesnt that become idolatary even if its not meant that way. Ive seen it mentioned in the dua book for one
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
Difference of opinion? I havent heard of that. When someone is making dua/asking for forgiveness your not supposed to use 'saints' or other people/things as a means of doing so. Doesnt that become idolatary even if its not meant that way. Ive seen it mentioned in the dua book for one
lol...I'm telling you about it now
That dua book is by someone who doesn't take that opinion...
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by Bilan on 1 December, 2011 - 19:28 #48
ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:
bilan wrote:
Difference of opinion? I havent heard of that. When someone is making dua/asking for forgiveness your not supposed to use 'saints' or other people/things as a means of doing so. Doesnt that become idolatary even if its not meant that way. Ive seen it mentioned in the dua book for one
lol...I'm telling you about it now
That dua book is by someone who doesn't take that opinion...
I mean I find it hard to believe tht there IS a difference of opinion on it
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
:S Aren't you basically saying that you don't think there is a difference of opinion?
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by Bilan on 1 December, 2011 - 19:44 #50
ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:
:S Aren't you basically saying that you don't think there is a difference of opinion?
no, not saying that. saying I wasnt aware of there being a difference of opinion. I dont know a lot and dont claim to either, but asking others to intercede for u goes against the basic of the basic doesnt it? I dnt knw... :/
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
:S Aren't you basically saying that you don't think there is a difference of opinion?
no, not saying that. saying I wasnt aware of there being a difference of opinion. I dont know a lot and dont claim to either, but asking others to intercede for u goes against the basic of the basic doesnt it? I dnt knw... :/
That is what the difference of opinion is. You would need to check out the views yourself to make a decision on whether it's permissible or not.
But it's not the same as believing the person has any of their own power - which is what people seem to think it means and therefore call it shirk.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
:S Aren't you basically saying that you don't think there is a difference of opinion?
no, not saying that. saying I wasnt aware of there being a difference of opinion. I dont know a lot and dont claim to either, but asking others to intercede for u goes against the basic of the basic doesnt it? I dnt knw... :/
That is what the difference of opinion is. You would need to check out the views yourself to make a decision on whether it's permissible or not.
But it's not the same as believing the person has any of their own power - which is what people seem to think it means and therefore call it shirk.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
TAWASSUL (definition)
Supplicating Allah by means of an intermediary, whether it be a living person, dead person, a good deed, or a name or Attribute of Allah Most High. The scholar, YUSUF RIFA'I, says: I here want to convey the position, attested to by compelling legal evidence, of the orthodox majority of Sunni Muslims on the subject of supplicating Allah through an intermediary (tawassul), and so I say (and Allah alone gives success) that since there is no disagreement among scholars that supplicating Allah through an intermediary is in principle legally valid, the discussion of its details merely concerns derived rulings that involve interschool differences, unrelated to questions of belief or unbelief, monotheism or associating partners with Allah (shirk); the sphere of the question being limited to permissibility or impermissibility, and its ruling being that it is either lawful or unlawful. There is no difference among groups of Muslims in their consensus on the permissibility of three types of supplicating Allah through an intermediary (tawassul):
TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High, as in the hadith of the blind man with the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) as we shall explain;
The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds, as in the hadith of the three people trapped in a cave by a great stone, a hadith related by Imam Bukhari in his "Sahih;"
And the TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth.
Since the legality of these types is agreed upon, there is no reason to set forth the evidence for them. The only area of disagreement is supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a righteous dead person. The majority of the orthodox Sunni Community hold that it is lawful, and have supporting hadith evidence , of which we will content ourselves with the Hadith of the Blind Man, since it is the central pivot upon which the discussion turns.
THE HADITH OF THE BLIND MAN
Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and said, "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say:
"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: "for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me"]."
The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, "And if there is some need, do the same."
Scholars of Sacred Law infer from this hadith the recommended character of the "prayer of need," in which someone in need of something from Allah Most High performs such a prayer and then turns to Allah with this supplication together with other suitable supplications, traditional or otherwise, according to the need and how the person feels. The express content of the hadith proves the legal validity of "tawassul" through a living person (as the Prophet - peace be upon him - was alive at that time). It implicitly proves the validity of tawassul through a deceased one as well, since tawassul through a living or dead person is not through a physical body or through or through a life or death, but rather through the positive meaning (ma'na tayyib) attached to the person in both life and death. The body is but the vehicle that carries that significance, which requires that the person be respected whether dead or alive; for the words "O Muhammad" are an address to someone physically absent - in which state the living and dead are alike - an address to the meaning, dear to Allah, that is connected with his spirit, a meaning that is the ground of "tawassul," be it through a living or dead person.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Moreover, Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:
'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman]." So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I hadn't remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it." Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn't see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him." Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn't speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Can you not bear it?' and the man replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me.' The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, 'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak'as of prayer and make the supplications.'" Ibn Hunayf went on, "By Allah, we didn't part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."
This is an explicit, unequivocal text from a prophetic Companion proving the legal validity of tawassul through the dead. The account has been classified as rigously authenticated (SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri, and Haythami.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Tirmidhi has stated that the hadith of the blind man is "a hadith that is well or rigorously authenticated but singular, being unknown except through his chain of narrators, from the hadith of Abu Ja'far, who is not Abu Ja'far Khatmi," which means that the narrators of this hadith, despite Abu Ja'far being unknown to Tirmidhi, were acceptable to the degree of being well or rigorously authenticated in either case.
...
As mentioned above, it has come with a chain of transmission meeting the standards of Bukhari and Muslim, so there is nothing left for a critic to attack or slanderer to disparage concerning the authenticity of the hadith. Consequently, as for the permissibility of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through either a living or dead person, it follows by human reason, scholarship, and sentiment, that there is flexibility in the matter. Whoever wants to can either take tawassul or leave it, without causing trouble or making accusations, since it has been this thoroughly checked ("Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a , 79-83).
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
It is well to review some salient features of the proof that was given , such as:
(1) that there are 2 hadiths, Tirmidhi's hadith of the "blind man" and Tabarani's hadith of the "man in need" to whom Uthman ibn Hunayf related the story of the blind man, teaching him tawassul that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) had taught the blind man.
(2) Tirmidhi's hadith is rigorously authenticated (sahih), being the subject of the above investigation of its chain of narrators, the authencticity of which is established beyond a reasonable doubt and attested to by nearly 15 of the foremost hadith specialists of Islam. The hadith explicitly proves the validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a living intermediary, as the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) was alive at the time. The author of the article holds that the hadith implicitly shows the validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a deceased intermediary as well, since:
The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told the blind man to go perform ablution (wudu) pray two rak'as, and then make the supplication containing the words, "O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight," which is a call upon somebody physically absent, a state of which the living and the dead are alike.
Supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a living or deceased intermediary is, in the author's words, "not tawassul through a physical body, or through a life or death, but rather through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance.
And perhaps the most telling reason, though the author does not mention it, is that everything the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) ordered to be done during his lifetime was "legislation" valid for all generations until the end of time unless proven otherwise by a subsequent indication from the Prophet himself (Allah bless him and grant him peace), the tawassul he taught during his lifetime not requiring anything else to be generalized to any time thereafter.
(3) The authenticity of Tabarani's hadith of the man in need during the caliphate of Uthman (Allah be well pleased with him) is not discussed by the article in detail, but deserves consideration, since the hadith explicitly proves the legal validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through the deceased, for 'Uthman ibn Hunayf and indeed all the prophetic Companions, by scholarly consensus (ijma'), were legally upright ('udul), and are above being impugned with teaching someone an act of disobedience, much less idolatory (shirk). The hadith is rigorously authenticated (sahih), as Tabarani explicitly states in his "al-Mu'jam al-saghir." The translator (Nuh Ha Mim Keller), wishing to verify the matter further, to the hadith with its chain of narrators to hadith specialist Sheikh Shu'ayb Arna'ut, who after examining it, agreed that it was rigorously authenticated (sahih) as Tabarani indicated, a judgement which was also confirmed to the translator by the Morrocan hadith specialist Sheikh 'Abdullah Muhammad Ghimari, who characterized the hadith as "very rigorously authenticated," and noted that hadith masters Haythami and Mundhiri had explicitly concurred with Tabarani on its being rigorously authenticated (sahih). The upshot is that the recommendedness of tawassul to Allah Most High - through the living or the dead - is the position of the Shafi'i school, which is why both our author Ibn Naqib Al-Misri, and Imam Nawawi in his "Al-Adhkar (281-282)", and "al-Majmu" explicitly record that "tawassul" through the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and asking his intercession are recommended. A final article below by a Hanafi scholar concludes the discussion.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
The Hanafi scholar, Muhammad Hamid says: As for calling upon (nida') the righteous (when they are physically absent, as in the words "O Muhammad" in the above hadiths), tawassul to Allah Most High through them is permissible, the supplication (du'a) being to Allah Most Glorious, and there is much evidence for its permissibility.
Those who call on them intending "tawassul" cannot be blamed. As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolator who has left Islam - Allah be our refuge! This then, and a certain person has written an article that tawassul to Allah Most High through the righteous is unlawful, while the overwhelming majority of scholars hold it is permissible, and the evidence the writer uses to corrobrate his viewpoint is devoid of anything that demonstrates what he is trying to prove. In declaring tawassul permissible, we are not hovering on brink of idolatory (shirk) or coming anywhere near it, for the conviction that Allah Most High alone has influence over anything, outwardly or inwardly, is a conviction that flows through us like our very lifeblood. If tawassul was idolatory (shirk), or if there were any suspicion of idolatory in it, the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) would not have taught it to the blind man when the latter asked him to supplicate Allah for him, though in fact he did teach him to make "tawassul" to Allah through him. And the notion that tawassul is permissible only during the lifetime of the person through whom it is done but not after his death is unsupported by any viable foundation from Sacred Law ["Rudud 'ala abatil wa rasa'il al-Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid]
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I know copy and pasting isn't liked, but in this case I thought it'd be beneficial as sometimes people can be so lazy that they cbb to click on a link! And I thought if I broke the article down like this, it'd be easier to read.
—
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Submitted by Bilan on 1 December, 2011 - 22:29 #59
I know copy and pasting isn't liked, but in this case I thought it'd be beneficial as sometimes people can be so lazy that they cbb to click on a link! And I thought if I broke the article down like this, it'd be easier to read.
yh..id liked to say thats true..but i canny lie
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
Submitted by Bilan on 1 December, 2011 - 22:37 #60
ok i skimmed over it. In the case of the blind man, making a supplication after the prophet has passed away, it seems hes makng tawassul using his iman which I know to be allowed. I didnt get ur last post though. When someone is making tawassul using the righteous and mentioning the rightheous I feel they would be addressing them directly when making their dua. Sorry to go on about it, but this needs to get straightened out.
—
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
I want to add here that I do try not to do the bad I really do but sometimes I just can't help myself. The bad is my anger which leads me into all sorts of bad trouble and plus there's a whole load of other bads I won't go into
No need to explain, you're not alone
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Thank you. I don't know what you believe but I also ask the saints the ones I can remember the names of to put in a good word for me then I don't feel so alone
Maybe this is why Allah (swt) allows us too keep sinning...
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
but also urges us to ask for forgiveness*
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
you cant ignore your community and friends.
Not a good idea.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Well wudu cleanses us
What do you mean Im great with community and friends it's family I can't stand
(That wasn't the point)
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
What is the point sorry
Sit with those who constantly repent, for they have the softest hearts (Umar ra)
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
isnt that a form of shirk?
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
Difference of opinion.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I mean there is a difference of opinion on whether you can make dua and asking for someone (the Prophet or a saint etc)to intercede.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
That's one for the scholars me thinks.
I don't really know, i wouldn't think you should ask anyone to intercede for you, i mean it's different to asking someone to make dua for you. Thing is though i know the prophet will intecede for his ummah. Anyway i'll just leave it...i have no clue
Lets reunite the ummah under one flag LA ILAHA IL ALLAH MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH
Difference of opinion? I havent heard of that. When someone is making dua/asking for forgiveness your not supposed to use 'saints' or other people/things as a means of doing so. Doesnt that become idolatary even if its not meant that way. Ive seen it mentioned in the dua book for one
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
lol...I'm telling you about it now
That dua book is by someone who doesn't take that opinion...
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I mean I find it hard to believe tht there IS a difference of opinion on it
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
:S Aren't you basically saying that you don't think there is a difference of opinion?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
no, not saying that. saying I wasnt aware of there being a difference of opinion. I dont know a lot and dont claim to either, but asking others to intercede for u goes against the basic of the basic doesnt it? I dnt knw... :/
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
That is what the difference of opinion is. You would need to check out the views yourself to make a decision on whether it's permissible or not.
But it's not the same as believing the person has any of their own power - which is what people seem to think it means and therefore call it shirk.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
That is what the difference of opinion is. You would need to check out the views yourself to make a decision on whether it's permissible or not.
But it's not the same as believing the person has any of their own power - which is what people seem to think it means and therefore call it shirk.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
TAWASSUL (definition)
Supplicating Allah by means of an intermediary, whether it be a living person, dead person, a good deed, or a name or Attribute of Allah Most High. The scholar, YUSUF RIFA'I, says: I here want to convey the position, attested to by compelling legal evidence, of the orthodox majority of Sunni Muslims on the subject of supplicating Allah through an intermediary (tawassul), and so I say (and Allah alone gives success) that since there is no disagreement among scholars that supplicating Allah through an intermediary is in principle legally valid, the discussion of its details merely concerns derived rulings that involve interschool differences, unrelated to questions of belief or unbelief, monotheism or associating partners with Allah (shirk); the sphere of the question being limited to permissibility or impermissibility, and its ruling being that it is either lawful or unlawful. There is no difference among groups of Muslims in their consensus on the permissibility of three types of supplicating Allah through an intermediary (tawassul):
TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High, as in the hadith of the blind man with the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) as we shall explain;
The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds, as in the hadith of the three people trapped in a cave by a great stone, a hadith related by Imam Bukhari in his "Sahih;"
And the TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth.
Since the legality of these types is agreed upon, there is no reason to set forth the evidence for them. The only area of disagreement is supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a righteous dead person. The majority of the orthodox Sunni Community hold that it is lawful, and have supporting hadith evidence , of which we will content ourselves with the Hadith of the Blind Man, since it is the central pivot upon which the discussion turns.
THE HADITH OF THE BLIND MAN
Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and said, "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say:
"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: "for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me"]."
The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, "And if there is some need, do the same."
Scholars of Sacred Law infer from this hadith the recommended character of the "prayer of need," in which someone in need of something from Allah Most High performs such a prayer and then turns to Allah with this supplication together with other suitable supplications, traditional or otherwise, according to the need and how the person feels. The express content of the hadith proves the legal validity of "tawassul" through a living person (as the Prophet - peace be upon him - was alive at that time). It implicitly proves the validity of tawassul through a deceased one as well, since tawassul through a living or dead person is not through a physical body or through or through a life or death, but rather through the positive meaning (ma'na tayyib) attached to the person in both life and death. The body is but the vehicle that carries that significance, which requires that the person be respected whether dead or alive; for the words "O Muhammad" are an address to someone physically absent - in which state the living and dead are alike - an address to the meaning, dear to Allah, that is connected with his spirit, a meaning that is the ground of "tawassul," be it through a living or dead person.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
THE HADITH OF THE MAN IN NEED
Moreover, Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:
'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman]." So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I hadn't remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it." Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn't see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him." Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn't speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Can you not bear it?' and the man replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me.' The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, 'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak'as of prayer and make the supplications.'" Ibn Hunayf went on, "By Allah, we didn't part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."
This is an explicit, unequivocal text from a prophetic Companion proving the legal validity of tawassul through the dead. The account has been classified as rigously authenticated (SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri, and Haythami.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
AUTHENTICITY OF THE HADITH OF THE BLIND MAN
Tirmidhi has stated that the hadith of the blind man is "a hadith that is well or rigorously authenticated but singular, being unknown except through his chain of narrators, from the hadith of Abu Ja'far, who is not Abu Ja'far Khatmi," which means that the narrators of this hadith, despite Abu Ja'far being unknown to Tirmidhi, were acceptable to the degree of being well or rigorously authenticated in either case.
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As mentioned above, it has come with a chain of transmission meeting the standards of Bukhari and Muslim, so there is nothing left for a critic to attack or slanderer to disparage concerning the authenticity of the hadith. Consequently, as for the permissibility of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through either a living or dead person, it follows by human reason, scholarship, and sentiment, that there is flexibility in the matter. Whoever wants to can either take tawassul or leave it, without causing trouble or making accusations, since it has been this thoroughly checked ("Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a , 79-83).
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
It is well to review some salient features of the proof that was given , such as:
(1) that there are 2 hadiths, Tirmidhi's hadith of the "blind man" and Tabarani's hadith of the "man in need" to whom Uthman ibn Hunayf related the story of the blind man, teaching him tawassul that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) had taught the blind man.
(2) Tirmidhi's hadith is rigorously authenticated (sahih), being the subject of the above investigation of its chain of narrators, the authencticity of which is established beyond a reasonable doubt and attested to by nearly 15 of the foremost hadith specialists of Islam. The hadith explicitly proves the validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a living intermediary, as the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) was alive at the time. The author of the article holds that the hadith implicitly shows the validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a deceased intermediary as well, since:
The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told the blind man to go perform ablution (wudu) pray two rak'as, and then make the supplication containing the words, "O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight," which is a call upon somebody physically absent, a state of which the living and the dead are alike.
Supplicating Allah (tawassul) through a living or deceased intermediary is, in the author's words, "not tawassul through a physical body, or through a life or death, but rather through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance.
And perhaps the most telling reason, though the author does not mention it, is that everything the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) ordered to be done during his lifetime was "legislation" valid for all generations until the end of time unless proven otherwise by a subsequent indication from the Prophet himself (Allah bless him and grant him peace), the tawassul he taught during his lifetime not requiring anything else to be generalized to any time thereafter.
(3) The authenticity of Tabarani's hadith of the man in need during the caliphate of Uthman (Allah be well pleased with him) is not discussed by the article in detail, but deserves consideration, since the hadith explicitly proves the legal validity of supplicating Allah (tawassul) through the deceased, for 'Uthman ibn Hunayf and indeed all the prophetic Companions, by scholarly consensus (ijma'), were legally upright ('udul), and are above being impugned with teaching someone an act of disobedience, much less idolatory (shirk). The hadith is rigorously authenticated (sahih), as Tabarani explicitly states in his "al-Mu'jam al-saghir." The translator (Nuh Ha Mim Keller), wishing to verify the matter further, to the hadith with its chain of narrators to hadith specialist Sheikh Shu'ayb Arna'ut, who after examining it, agreed that it was rigorously authenticated (sahih) as Tabarani indicated, a judgement which was also confirmed to the translator by the Morrocan hadith specialist Sheikh 'Abdullah Muhammad Ghimari, who characterized the hadith as "very rigorously authenticated," and noted that hadith masters Haythami and Mundhiri had explicitly concurred with Tabarani on its being rigorously authenticated (sahih). The upshot is that the recommendedness of tawassul to Allah Most High - through the living or the dead - is the position of the Shafi'i school, which is why both our author Ibn Naqib Al-Misri, and Imam Nawawi in his "Al-Adhkar (281-282)", and "al-Majmu" explicitly record that "tawassul" through the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and asking his intercession are recommended. A final article below by a Hanafi scholar concludes the discussion.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
CALLING UPON THE RIGHTEOUS
The Hanafi scholar, Muhammad Hamid says: As for calling upon (nida') the righteous (when they are physically absent, as in the words "O Muhammad" in the above hadiths), tawassul to Allah Most High through them is permissible, the supplication (du'a) being to Allah Most Glorious, and there is much evidence for its permissibility.
Those who call on them intending "tawassul" cannot be blamed. As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolator who has left Islam - Allah be our refuge! This then, and a certain person has written an article that tawassul to Allah Most High through the righteous is unlawful, while the overwhelming majority of scholars hold it is permissible, and the evidence the writer uses to corrobrate his viewpoint is devoid of anything that demonstrates what he is trying to prove. In declaring tawassul permissible, we are not hovering on brink of idolatory (shirk) or coming anywhere near it, for the conviction that Allah Most High alone has influence over anything, outwardly or inwardly, is a conviction that flows through us like our very lifeblood. If tawassul was idolatory (shirk), or if there were any suspicion of idolatory in it, the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) would not have taught it to the blind man when the latter asked him to supplicate Allah for him, though in fact he did teach him to make "tawassul" to Allah through him. And the notion that tawassul is permissible only during the lifetime of the person through whom it is done but not after his death is unsupported by any viable foundation from Sacred Law ["Rudud 'ala abatil wa rasa'il al-Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid]
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Taken from SunniPath
I know copy and pasting isn't liked, but in this case I thought it'd be beneficial as sometimes people can be so lazy that they cbb to click on a link! And I thought if I broke the article down like this, it'd be easier to read.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
yh..id liked to say thats true..but i canny lie
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
ok i skimmed over it. In the case of the blind man, making a supplication after the prophet has passed away, it seems hes makng tawassul using his iman which I know to be allowed. I didnt get ur last post though. When someone is making tawassul using the righteous and mentioning the rightheous I feel they would be addressing them directly when making their dua. Sorry to go on about it, but this needs to get straightened out.
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
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