Common decency were trampled by you and courtesy, call me stupid, and cant understand the simple question my Zebra brother.

Alhamdulillah I am sunni and I write on this forum:

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/forumdisplay.php?f=10

AhlalHadeeth is me, it was pre-owned by salafism, so thats why name is ahlalhadeeth, but now is run by us sunnis.

No, the point of this thread was so that people realise wrong and right aqeedah, and which side promotes right one, without having to go into details, but people rather then just do what is simple and best argue and want explainations, and result of unnesscary questioning was that i had to expand and link it with Qadiyanis, had no one just bathered questioning and just judged for them selves without demanding details, I wouldnt have, Deobandis are not Qadiyanis, but Deobandi the founder of the Deobandi dar ul uloom Qasim Nanotavi wrote Tazeer Un Naas a book which was stepping stone for Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani to claim Prophethood. Qasim Nanotavi only purposed a theory, and Ghulam Qadiyani acted on the theory, both of these supported each other in beleife, no scholar even the DEOBANDIS didnt support Qasim Nanotavi even they rejected his made up understanding of KHATAM UN NABIYEEN but there are EXTREMIST DEOBANDIS WHO ARE PREACHING THIS AS CORRECT UNDERSTANDING.

For doing a serves for Muslim brother and sisters so theylearn their deen the correct aqeedah, i EARN ABUSE, INSULTS, QUITE TOO OFTEN HAVE MY MOTHER SISTER WIFE AND CHILDREN ABUSED, this is in dunya, my earning is with Allah in hereafter, where i will get reward of evil i preach, and you will get reward of good encourage me to do.

Teaches me, holding to deen is hotter then holding to a burning coal in hand, and it will get more difficult. And it teaches me future of Muslims is bleak.

If you are so concerned, go get yourself a teacher and learn some Islam. Then when you get older and wiser... maybe late teens ... maybe you will be in a position to teach others knowledge that is useful instead of useless hyperbole.

Thats what I teach:

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Alhamdulillah, Allah has blessed me with some knowledge of deen. And how usefull and useless what i wrote in my first post, you are not in position to judge. It requires that you know basic aqeedah:

- Prophet Muhammed is a Last Finale Messenger chosen from humans to guide them, after him there can be no prophet.

And also it requires that you believe that no Prophet can be born, and anyone who does believe that a prophet can be born is not adhering to correct aqeedah.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Radiatingali wrote:

No, the point of this thread was so that people realise wrong and right aqeedah, and which side promotes right one, without having to go into details, but people rather then just do what is simple and best argue and want explainations, and result of unnesscary questioning was that i had to expand and link it with Qadiyanis, had no one just bathered questioning and just judged for them selves without demanding details, I wouldnt have

You expect us to NOT QUESTION you, or want an EXPLANATION with further DETAILS.

You are kidding me, right?!

How are we meant to understand, or know whether what you're saying is right or not?!

For you to make right decision everything was given to you, any more wasnt required.

You wrote:

@Radiatingali, I think you would be much appreciated on the Ummah Forums. They have such debates often enough over there.

(I also think they would slaughter you)

Aah would you like to invite the most knowledgeable, most educated to debate with me?

Do me a favour:

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7

join the above, and you can ask your most trusted, knowledgeable, to debate with me. You wouldnt know how it tastes if you havnt tried it, :roll:

@Zebra

why should I if you dont want to?

There was another beautiful gem before the zebra comment, care to read that? Or are you blind to two sides of coin?

Lilly wrote:

Radiatingali wrote:

There was another beautiful gem before the zebra comment, care to read that? Or are you blind to two sides of coin?

dunno..you seem to know a lot (?) but your attitude isnt that great... you know, you should really think about attitude and the way you come across to people, it helps. im trying to stay unbiased but...

personally i would be so scared to accuse anyone of anything coz im so defective myself.

also, i have no idea what Breweli, Deobandi and the other word that starts with Q (and reminds me of Qurbani) means. Min fadlik, enlighten me.

I dont know about my attitude, but I always make enemies, how i manage it I dont know, even good intended points earn me enemies and haters, its been like this all my life, and I dont beleive its going to change anytime soon. Its just something wrong with my way of talking, and my way of writting ... reading it gives impresion of agression, coldness, havnt figured out how and why i manage that without intending it, its just me.

Barelwi: term is used to reffer to Sunni's, in India, and Pakistan. Its just a localised name for Sunnis, in Arab countries people who share Barelwi aqeedah are called Sufi's by their opponents. Their formal title is Ahle Sunnat Wal Jammat.

Deobandi: They are semi Wahabi, Semi Barelwi sect which originated in India, they originally were Sunni-Barelwi but influence of Wahabi sect on them made them a distinct sect.

Qadiyani: They are Wahabi some aspect, sufi in other aspect, and little contribution from Deobandi sect, made them into a seperate religion. Qadiyanis beleive that Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani was a Prophet, Jesus, as well as Imam Mahdi, and they have gone as far as to say Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani actually was dublicate of Prophet Muhammed sallalahu alayhi was'salam.

All Qadiyanis are KAFFIR, and founder of Dar ul Uloom Deoband the founder of Deobandi sect Qasim Nanotavi is KAFFIR as well because he layed the foundation of Qadiyani religions belief, Qasim Nanotavi presented theory, and Mirza Qadiyani took advantage of it. Qasim Nanotavi was guilty of criminal abetment, like being a get away car driver for bank robbers, even though you are not directly involved in robbery, but the person is still involved in the robbery. Qasim Nanotavi didnt claim prophethood, on basis of his teachings, but his teachings were used by Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani to claim prophethood, and used Qasim Nanotavis book to justify his claim and argue against Muslims. But but but but but, please please please, I am not saying ALL DEOBANDIS ARE KAFFIR. but i beleive anyone who shares with Qasim Nanotavi the belief that if a prophet is born even then prophet muhammed is last prophet. such a person is kaffir, and anyone who beleives that Prophet khatam un nabiyeen means anything other then LAST, FINALE PROPHET, such a person is kaffir, and Qasim Nanotavi was guilty of both, and he did is utmost to prove that khatam un nabiyeen doesnt mean last prophet, where as Quran hadith, and every single Muslim from Prophet to present believed that khatam un nabiyeen means last, end, finale prophet.

I havnt written anything on what Deobandi's, Wahabi's, or Qadiyani's beleive and their differences with Sunni's {Barelwi's}. But all the creeds in this forum are of Barelwi's {Sunni's}:

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Inshallah if time permitted, I will write about them and their believes, but at this moment my priority is to refrain from polemical subjects and write about believes from Quran and Hadith, and explain people the simples of believes so they dont make mistakes which I made.

I recogmend that sister you read these three articles

* Prophet Muhammed: Khat'm Of Prophets & Khat'm Of Messengers
- http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/showthread.php?t=18719

* Prophet Muhammed - The Kha'tm Un Nabiyeen.
- http://www.ahlalhdeeth.org/showthread.php?t=18632

My story, from ignorance to misguidance to misguidance, to guidance

I was once upon a time young, easily impressed, with no knowledge of deen, full of anger, and a numb skull zealot who saw only myself and my deobandi sect to be only true ISLAM, EVERYONE else was MUSHRIK {polytheist} for one reason or another in my judgement. After six years of looney gang war {in other words senseless debates} I decided I am on wrong side, the Wahabis are better cause they dont have SHIRK in their belief and Deobandis do, and a year and half went by as a wahabi, during that period i the frequency of kaffir, kaffir, kaffir, shirk shirk shirk, mushrik, mushrik, biddah, biddah, grave worshiper, grave worshiper, got faster. Then i met one crazy BARELWI, in my measuring yard stick, anyone else could be right but a barelwi, HOW COULD A BARELWI WHO WORSHIPS GRAVES BE RIGHT? ME WORSHIPPER OF ALLAH GOING TO DEBATE WITH A GRAVE WORSHIPPER, AND COMPREHEND LOOSING TO HIM, NAH Allah's on my side, Allah surely will disgrace that MUSHRIK GRAVE WORSHIPPING BARELWI, am just gona go and quote the Quran and hadith, and he will be speechless, BECAUE I KNOW BARELWI'S didnt read QURAN. Debate day came, and i went with copy of Quran, thinking, for this BARELWI only two verses of QURAN will be enough. There he was sitting smile on the face, and i said salam alayqum wr wb, and he didnt answer my salam, so i said again, and he ignored it like he never heard it. Hang on a sec, I AM MUWAHID {Unitarian} and he is treating me like dirt, now this barelwi gona get ma serious harsh lesson in TAWHEED.

oKI, DEBATE, started i got up quoted my evidence, you BARELWIS ARE MUSHRIK, because you worship GRAVES, and anyne who does worship graves is kaffir, Mushrik. And I sat down with big smle on my face, thinking he is going to get up and say brther i never read the Quran make me read the kalmah and make me muslim, and i got a surprise.

He got up, YOU WAHABIS BOW DOWN TO KABAH AND WORSHIP THE KABAH, AND YOU MAKE YOUR IMAMS STAND INFRONT OF YOU IN PRAYERS, AND SECOND ROW BOWS TO FIRST ROW OF WORSHIPPERS, AND THIRD BOWS TO SECOND ROW AND FIRST BOWS TO IMAM, YOU WORSHIP YOUR IMAMS FIVE TIMES A DAY, AND YOU WORSHIP KABAH, YOU ARE LIKE HINDUS. Without quoting any evidence he sat down, and i was like omg! what was that, so i explained we bow to Allah, we worship Allah, we dont worship kabah or the imam leading the prayers, its sunnah, its taught in the Quran. He replied well, when we say we bow to Allah only and we worship Allah only you dont believe us so why should we believe you that you dont worship kabah, and Imam? I replied because Prophet taught us, and what he taught cant be Shirk and worhsip of objects and imams. He replied well that might suffice for a Muslim, what if the same question was paused to you by a HINDu who doesnt beleive in Quran and Hadith, how would you reffute him, and prove that you dont worhsip Kabah and Imam leading prayers, what ever I said wasnt sufficent enough to convince a Hindu, or a neutral person. The debate had changed from me proving him to be Mushrik grave worshipper, to me fighting for my VERY OWN IMAAN, BELIEF IN ISLAM, finally I in the three hour debate, disbeleife began to set in me, and rather then debating i began to contemplate becomming a atheist because i thought:

- Barelwis bow to graves they are Mushrik
- Hindus bow to graves and they too are polytheists
- We bow to Imams and people praying and kabah, still we arnt polytheists,

So at my lowest point I asked him:

- Are you not Muslim?

and he replied, astaghfirullah ul azeem, I am Muslim, on his answer i thought he might be Quran only fallowr, so i said you dont beleive in Hadith, he replied yeah he beleives in Hadith, i said all of them, he said all the sahih, hadith, and i was confused, and he explained he is HANAFI as well as BARELWI and i was like, this guy is strange dude, but I was so demoralised, and my big headedness was so squished that I didnt want to argue with him fearing that I will get another humiliating in discussion, so i kind of kept quite, and had decided that I shoudl either become atheist or quran only fallower. Debate ended everyone went home, but I was tormented in my mind about Islam actually teaching Shirk, and worship of Kabah, after few days depression started making its way toward me. Week went by and i got a call from my friend asking havnt been for prayers, i told him am busy, told him that i will see him in evening, went to see him, but he could see on my face I am bothered about something, so he asked until i told him, so we both agreed to meet that guy again for round two, I said I wont debate you debate him, my friend wasnt debate type guy, he was discussion type of guy, so my friend asked him why is it shirk in his belief to face kabah worship Allah, and he said, no its not his beleife its the your {wahabi} beleif, we were like, wat!! we said we dont beleive that he goes i know you dont but the principles you use to judge the barelwis and label us all Mushrik if those same principles are applied to you i.e. namaz you become Mushrik according to your own rules.

He said your rule {wahabi} is:

- Anyone who bows to anyone other then Allah is Mushrik, and Kaffir, do yu agree?

we said yes ofcourse, then he said do you also agree that angles who bowed down to adam alayhis salam are also Mushrik kaffir? we said no they are not, then he said either your rule is wrong or your beleife that angles arnt kaffir mushrik is wrong, both cant be right. Ofcourse we werent willing to comprimise either, we tried to argue our way out. So he said what about yaqoob alayhis salam bowing to Yusuf alayhis salam, and he quoted the verse of Quran, he said is he Mushrik akffir, we negated that as well.

So he said on basis of your rule, bowing to kabah is shirk as well, we said but it only seems that we are bowing to kahbah but we intend to wroship Allah, he said, well why cant that logic be extended to barelwis would you accept if they say we only intend to worship Allah not grave, we said no we wont accept thaat, so he said why should your be accepted and their same reason as yours be rejected, and we were kind of speechless.

So he said your rule is wrong, the correct rule is:

anyone who bows to other then Allah with aqeedah that the person whom he is bowing to is partner of god, as son, mother father, daughter, etc ... and then bows down such a person is kaffir mushrik,

then he aplied his principle to angles bowing to adam alayhis salam, yaqoob alayhis salam bowing to yusuf alayhis salam, and our bowing infront ofkabah and behind imam, and said if you bowed to any of these with the beleife mentioned you would be kaffir.

Then he explained bowing to other then Allah is haram, if done with intention of respect, but if done with intention of wroship and with aqeedah of making other then allah as partner with Allah, then person is kaffir, and explained that those who bow to graves are jahil, ignorant people they dont intend to worship but due to love of their peer they do it only few do it,but they only do a haram action which doesnt make them kaffir, but makes them sinful.

we labbelled what he said Biddah, and left him, but on that day only our pride didnt let us accept us what he was syaing atleast me in my heart was convinved he was write, but idinnt want to be looked down by my friend so i didnt shwo my feelings, weeks went by and i noticed i was using BARELWIS points to explain people what is correct, after that I kept in touch witht he barelwi, i learnt the fundamental principles of aqeedah from him, and rest I am doing my self with help of Allah.

You wrote:

Qadiyani's or Ahmadis (or mirza'is) are a group of people who follow a guy who used to be called Mirza Gulam ahmad from Qadiyan (or his last name was Qadiyani) who claimed to be a prophet.

They are outside the fold of Islam and comparing any Muslims to them is pretty offensive.

Who said Qadiyanis are kaffir, in other words which aalim said they are kaffir, and why do you believe that? and Will you beleive if someone said Deobandis who support Qasim Nanotavis aqeedah are too kaffirs? if not why not, because there is no difference in aqeedah of Qasim Nanotavi and Qadiyanis aqeedah, but you accept Qadiyanis are kaffir, but your love affair with Deobandis probally as blinded you, that you dont see that Qasim Nanotavi the founder of Deobandi aqeedah has exactly the same aqeedah as Qadiyanis, yet calling him kaffir is offensive to you. Anyone who supports Qasim Nanotavis aqeedah may he be Deobandi, Qadiyani, he is kaffir.

Dipstick, who compared a Muslim or Muslims with Qadiyanis? Qasim Nanotavi is unanimously declared KAFFIR by Sunni's even the scholars of arab worlds issued fatwah of kuffr on him for his Qadiyani aqeedah.

You wrote:

you did.

care to show where.

Read Sayyidi Ala Hazrat's Hasam Ul Haramayn {Sword of Two Sanctuaries} in which 32 scholars of highiest level gave verdict of kuffr on Qasim Nanotavi and anyone who supports his Aqeedah.

Spend little time reading to understand what I am on about:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17391200/Husaam-ulHaramain-saudia-scholars-Fat...