I want to know more about the political system of My religion. Because it's from Islam i already know its the best.
Now i want to know more about it to be able to enjoy its awesomness to the full.
Me and my dad were talking about Afghanistan. and he was saying that a muslim leader could never be overthrown by another muslim. and i was shocked and arguing saying "but the talibans forbade selling/flying KITES, how is that a rule from Islam??" then i thought about it. Already if the leader is muslim he shouldnt be a tyrant. But if he is, then he will have to pay on the day of judgement. and all the people he oppressed will be rewarded by Allah for their patience? So it makes sense. then my dad concluded before drifting off to sleep that "Injustive will only end up self-destroying itself"
i've been asking questions recently (and being questionned). and i want to know more about the history of islam, i found this wikipedia article Should i bother reading it?
Please simplify your words as much as possible, im already not great at politics, but having to googledefine every other word is really not going to help...
Jazakallah
The rule of Hadhrat Ali (ra) was initially challenged by a few people, so the "no overthrowing" is not something that is 100%, just 99.9%.
The idea is that even no matter how bad an existing leader is, revolution would lead to bloodshed, violence and most people who would be leading it would be power thirsty anyway, so there is no guarantee that the new leadership would be any better.
Shayklh Ibn Taymiyyah said that it was better to live under bad/oppressive leadership for 70 years than to live a single night without a leader.
On the other hand, the agreement between Hadhrat Amir Mu'awiyah (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) where Imam Hassan (ra) handed over power in order to unite the Muslims shows that leadership can be handed over/relinquished.
Another point that you should be aware of - me and anon1 have very different ideas over what "caliphate leadership" etc is and there have already been a few topics discussing that.
My view is that there is no specific method of ruling that is approved, but people using the qur'an and sunnah as their highest principles would be it (so a caliphate can be democratic).
Anon1 thinks there are specific modes of government that are approved and others like democracy are not allowed.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Yes.
Wikipedia has this great linking where you can click words and eventually end up at totally random topics etc.
That page seems to have a decent overview and you can read more about specific periods on their own pages too if you get interested in one specific section.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Also, i'm not sure if taxes are a direct outcome to democracy but In an Islamic state there is no tax. Muslims pay Zakaat and non-muslims pay jiziah.
Can you refer me back to topics that have gone on to be about caliphate? please? and thank you
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
too much effort. the majority of topics me and anon have been discussing apart from a couple were about or based around this topic.
(the problem with declaring one to be about the rules and laws set by God and not the other is that both are implemented by people and in a Muslim majority location, people will choose Islam over not-Islam in their voting options.. but even in the Islamic option, there can be multiple things to choose.)
AFAIK, Zaka'ah is not a generic tax that can be used for duties of state - it has specific uses that it can be used for, but I may be wrong.
Anon1 did give a list of what taxes are allowed etc, but I cannot remember which topic it was in, or what the sources for them were (or what they even meant).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The article is quite good imho and worth reading to get a historical perspective on Muslim politics.
You need to try to ensure you separate out the Caliphate system Islam outlines with the history of its implmentation. The two are often mixed resulting in people rejecting the concepts from Islam because of misapplication in the past. It's like studying Islam and observing Muslims - Muslims will make mistakes at times but it does not negate Islam where the rules are loud and clear and their implmentation should result in a noble life but will not eliminate calamaties or tests. Quite a decent article in wiki on its contribution to science however gives some insight into the progress having an Islamic political environment had on Muslim thinking and research - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam
A reasonably good overview of the Islamic Caliphate is at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate
With the dissolution of the Caliphate, many have tried adopting Western systems and Islamicise them - but then, what has 4 legs is always not halal... Islam has a unique model and solution to political problems just like its solutions to the economic problems.
It is worth reading an overview to understand how Europeans had to start from scratch to build democracy and secularism, to see what the basic political questions are, how they answered them, and how their system organically grew from these answers and their particular historic circumstances. No doubt you will feel repulsed at many of their answers and will be able to replace them with ideas you already hold - the difference being, you will utilise them to create new political paradigms. The end result will be the Caliphate - a unique political system that at its minimum requires one amir, one Caliph whose duty is to implement the Sharia, extracted from Quran and Sunnah, and ensure Islam is conveyed to the world - the model the Prophet(saw) established in Medina. As the state expands and grows additional roles and functions are created and the model expands - as seen during the Prophet's(saw) time...
Finally, the problem with the Taliban was their conception of political Islam was weak - backed by the secular regime in Islamabad to ensure control of the satellite state of Afghanistan for Pakistan's interests, they got used to a good degree. When they would not conform to US economic interests with pipelines etc they were seen as having served their purpose in stabilising Afghanistan after the conflicts post-Russian invasion and Afghanistan was ready for a more complient regime. The rule they violated was that to establish an Islamic state, authority must be with the people when it is transferred to the Caliph - if authority is in reality with an external state you will be a pseudo-state and have no independant existance... liable to be destroyed whenever the external states choose to finish you off...
Your confusing elections as a mechanism to express preference (which can be used in an Islamic state) with democracy, a system where the demos (masses) are cratos (sovereign) - it's like saying a system of idol worshipping, let's call it idoworshipocracy, is Islamic because the masses use elections to decide on what idols they will worshipping. Seems to miss the essence of the system and try to match systems based on the slightest of commonalities...
Zakat is not a generic tax, but the 8 categories include the poor and destitute, thus funds for welfare, the adminstrators, thus funds for the government administration costs, in the way of Allah - a euphemism for jihad, thus military expenditures, to reconcile hearts, thus foreign policy of calling to Islam... etc
Interestingly the 8 categories reflect the functions of the Caliphate well...
Qadi Abu Yusuf's Kitab al-Kharaj is good as is Nabhani's Funds of the State. Both elaborate the funds a state can utilise.
These include:
- all resources in the state belong to the state to administer on behalf of the Muslims as per the hadith on the topic. These include oil, gas, gold, coal, salt, minerals etc
- Zakat, Kharaj, Fai, Jizyah, Ushr, Anfal, fines, penalites, illicit funds,
On the Islamic tax system, can I ask for a definition of Fa’i, Jizya, Kharaj, Ushur, please?
I was also reading "Taxation in Islam: Wealth Tax" and it seemed quite contradictory.
"No other forms of taxation should be allowed... unless it is necessary." seemed to be the message, which is very... strong and weak at the same time. kind of like saying "Do not surrernder! under no circumstances must you surrender! ... unless you have to."
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Contradictory? Doesn't this rule appear regularly in Islam, the rule is X, and its exception is necessity or duress. Even in voting many scholars argue necessity or lesser of 2 evils to move from the rule X (prohibition of voting in kufr systems) to permissibility.
That aside, Fai is what is taken from non-Muslims or left by non-Muslims without warfare, Jizya is tax on non-Muslims for their security, Kharaj/Ushr is taxation on lands and their produce, and ushur are taxes on non-Muslims and harbis on trading goods at the borders.
Like VAT?
Like Customs and Excise duty?
Any idea where these are legislated from?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I found this faq on the caliphate interesting (noting its similarities with the current system except that it says having fixed term is wrong). Is it the same as what the Hizb intends?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Couple of points:
- making analogies to understand a concept can help but can oversimplify when dealing with complex ideas
- most ideas in Islam tend to be complex with multiple dimensions - we usually see the tip of the iceberg, not realising the deeper implications many rules have...
That said...
VAT is a taxation on final consumable goods collected through the supply chain - kharaj and ushr are quite different and a little more complex...
Charged annually and not on every import or export and not on every trader...
You can read the chapters which cite the evidences in the following text - much is similar to Abu Yusuf's text but I can't seem to find an online version for you - zaloom's can be found by googling: "funds of the Khilafah state" abdul qadeem zaloom
It's the second link...
you're right. Im actually enjoying this. and welcome to the site! I'm Lilly, 16, crazy, immature and always asking dumb questions. ^_^ There's a forum topic if you have any questions.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
This topic has been an interesting read
just need to read those links now...
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
you make it sound like it's over
(or maybe it is =O)
yep...gotta read the links now...
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
But if the exceptions are not too exceptional to the rule, they are mentioned with the rule.
Just saying "there is no other tax allowed" makes it seem like there are no other taxes in general except for the exceptional circumstance, while the document/faq, while suggesting that also suggests the opposite too that they would be applied in the general case as they would be needed for education, healthcare and maybe other things too since the state will not be allowed to let harm come to the people by not investing in the systems.
Examples of exceptions are "Everything is allowed unless forbidden" and "There is no God but Allah". Now if people wentr about only mentioning the first half, they would be held to account.
The same is the case here because saying "no other taxes would be allowed" is a false statement since the FAQ admits that in the general case there would be other taxes due to necessity. The correct thing to say would be "No other taxes would be allowed unless necessitated."
The exception can only be not mentioned when the exception is not something that is too common - saying "Everything is allowed" without mentioning the exception would not tolerated, and saying "There is no god" would also not be tolerated and many would make takfir on such a statement unless then the person mentioned the except of "but God".
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Where do you get this notion from?
Mohammed(saw) was not a messenger before 40 but that is not mentioned in the shahadah as an exception - it just states Mohammed is the Messenger of God.
The assertion is correct as far as I can see as it is exceptional circumstances that the Islamic taxes result in a shortfall - even during a famine in Medina, Umar(ra) did not impose extra taxes but simply ordered food to be imported from the Egyptian province (which was not a divided nation state!).
I remember reading some research years ago on Syria, where the analysis showed by applying zakat alone would more than double the total govt tax income!
So do you hold Allah to account for saying:
"So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name has been pronounced, if you believe in the Divine Laws."
However the exception is those that have not been slaughtered by zabhah - not mentioned as an exception!
"Allah has permitted trade and forbidden riba"
He mentions all trade is permitted but fails to mention that speculative trades, trades with gharar and trades within trades are all exceptions!
“And We revealed to you the Book to clearly explain everything.”
Whilst the exception is that it is not here to address science, technology and matters we can determine through our faculties - none of which are mentioned or exceptioned.
"We have not created man and jinn except to worship"
No mention of chilling or relaxing here - are you now going to argue "chilling" is an extreme exception? Somehow I doubt it!
The above verses would contradict what you're saying...
Your use of the verse there is no God is a statement of reality - there has to be an exception mentioned as otherwise the factual statement would be untrue in its entirety.
The other examples would hold varying degrees of validity even if the exception is not mentioned eg Khanzeer is haram holds a good degree of validity even though its exception, in times of idtiraar, is not mentioned; likewise Mohammed is the Messenger etc.
The major difference being previously when it came to a question of finance, you had replied elsewhere when asked about the issues "No taxes other than these are allowed." except that they will be allowed by using the verse "Do not do harm and do not allow others to do harm".
I had asked a question about roads and public transport to which you had replied that no other taxes would be allowed. Now we hear that they will be.
On the issue of Zaka'ah being enough to cover all government programmes etc and more... Zakah is not applicable to everyone. It has restrictions on where it can be spent.
You had specifically ommitted such information and that is unlike and different the other examples you mention where the information has NOT been ommitted and hidden
There is a difference between being a prophet and declaring prophethood.
(If I wanted to be horrible to you, I would keep bringing up the "there is no god" analogy, kind of similar as to how you keep bringing up HinduMuslim and DevilWorshipping Muslim... but it would be just as inaccurate.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
i've read it a couple of times over but i don't understand it :S
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
They keep saying "there are no taxes, other than those legislated through Islam!" when asked about how the tax system would be implemented.
However, now I read that there is a very big exception to that rule - there will be taxes if they are deemed necessary.
That is just like telling people that there is no God and then forgetting to mention "but Allah", or worse, hiding that bit.
It is disingenuous in discussion because I had genuinely taken her word for what it is, until I found out that that was not the case.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
OH MY GOD! They hid the fact there is an exception! And then they mention it later on! How could they do that???!!!
Maybe there are exceptions to eating halal, or lieing, or drinking alcohol, or denying Allah exists!!! Oh my God! There are - under a rule called necessity which applies to all the sharia - how could people do that to us!!! Telling us alcohol is haram all this time when there was an exception!!!
People are so disingenuous!
I somehow doubt when the prophet
was preaching, he preached to them "There is no God", so yes I can push on about this all day.
One thing is when people know the situation, the score, but it is totally different when they don't and ask you for information.
The leadership structure in that document... is it like the soviet era leaderships? they didn't have terms and the leaders were replaced if they died or were stabbed in the back by their colleagues.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
He did preach to them Mohammed is the messenger of God? Why no exception???
Shouldn't apply to you as you appear to know about every and any situation - so why the complaints?
[/quote]The leadership structure in that document... is it like the soviet era leaderships? they didn't have terms and the leaders were replaced if they died or were stabbed in the back by their colleagues.[/quote]
Hmmm Khulafah Rashidah were like soviet era leaderships... replaced if they died or were stabbed in the back by their colleagues? Are you saying the companions were really Communists? And they hid that from us??? OH MY GOD! Everybody is hiding everything these days!!! Thankfully we have you to expose all these hidden things mashallah!
[size=8]one topic i thought might not be ruined...[/size]
:/
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Because he IS the messenger of God. Is, was and will remain for all time.
I mentioned to you before about how there is a difference between being a messenger and declaring prophethood.
But I guess since you do not seem to have studied with a teacher and just read a lot of random books, you would not be aware of the difference.
The prophet
did not mislead. You did. I had asked you a straight question and thought I had got a straight answer. but then I realised that there were huge holes in your response, turning it almost into a bare faced lie.
After you state anything do I need to ask "what are the qualifications of this assertion?"?
I had asked you where the money for specific things would come from and you were absolute in your assertion that no new taxes could be legislated. Except that I found out from elsewhere that they could.
That is like preaching to people "There is no God" and then refusing to mention "Except Allah (swt)".
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
He himself was not even aware he was a messenger or a prophet before 40 - have you actually read any books of seerah - and I don't include the Beano in that!
Is that another lie in the making? Or maybe you can prove that tentative assertion?
You are misleading - I asked you a straight question why you have no exception on your shahada in relation to Mohammed(saw) and you give me mumbo jumbo that he was a prophet/messenger even before 40! Maybe you can provide proof! He himself was unaware of the fact! And stating that it was written and destined and all that is not relevant! Scholars make it clear we cannot take anything before the age of 40 as before that he was Mohammed bin Abdullah and became Mohammed RasoolAllah afte 40!
No new taxes can be legislated - it is haram to legislate any taxes other than those from Sharia!
No it is not - as in your analogy the first statement has no validity at all.
My statement has validity even if the exception is not mentioned - as throughout our 1400 year history no kufr taxes were legislated!
Likewise khanzeer is haram has validity on its own - as does Mohammed is a messenger - the exceptions are needed at times, eg if one is starving or if someone tries emulating Mohammed(saw) before he was 40.
You should accept your point is nonsense and your analogy is selective and does not extend to other examples as you are persisting in selectivism!
Do you still think the rule of the companions is like Soviet rule?
Are you still going to compare the Caliphate to Communism?
It shows me that you are full of hatred and will stoop to any argument, any analogy you can lay your hands on to attack someone. Without actually checking what you carry is truthful or not - no wonder you get caught out so many times. From comparing the Khulafah Rashida to Soviets to mistranslating/fabricating hadith to denying the entire Islamic political system the companions followed and agreed by the classical scholars.
No, I am saying that the model presented in that document is like that. It also forgets how processes and stuff can be subverted and thus is not a very realistic document. Pretty childish "there will be a committee of people who will assess the caliphs performance" - as if they will be unbiased and above manipulation!
(you can say I lie if you want but the truth is only one of us has been found to ommit relevant information from a discussion... you have merely disagreed with my explanations of the sources... while you have been caught out ommitting relevant information that is inconvenient on occasion.)
Except you know... when they are needed or will put the state at a disadvantage to others... actually, those will also be from shariah as they are allowed.
But your previous assertion wasw apart from a list of 4/5 taxes, nothing else was allowed in shariah.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Oh I get it - the companions following revelation were short sighted to allow Caliphs to rule for life - advantages of stability, long term policy making, advantage of experience accumulated, trust built in the ummah to one caliph, consistency of policies, international relationships with statesmen etc all should have been ignored in a blind rush to emulate western powers that would emerge, who would impose short terms because of untrustworthy systems and elites and ideologies that needed to be checked! How silly of them! And how could Allah send us a system that is not as clever and far sighted as democracy!!! Hmmmmm maybe you should write him a note...
READ MY LIPS:
SEX WITH YOUR MOTHER IS HARAM
Maybe you want to go look for exceptions for that too as I have failed to mention them as has Allah in the Quranic ayats?
Don't impose your hangups on others - you have a problem with not realising necessity related exceptions - not others.
wait, are you trying to suggest that there are exceptions here? Please tell me you do not think there are exceptions here....
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Are you denying exceptions???
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