Ya'qub wrote:

I stand by my post. I would very much like anon to take offence, and then seriously question who someone hand-n-heart has never been so intentionally rude (if at all) to another Muslim has suddenly been SOOO angry about the way an (obviously 'intelligent' and well-read) Muslim can CONVERSE with other Muslims.

I am just shocked, because I felt that I could blame much of the ills on the Muslim world on lack of education or excess of luxury.

Without knowing anything much about you, I doubt you are either of these extremes... yet the way you view Islam seems to be the EXACT way that the BNP et al view it.

It makes me lose hope.

You have been out of order over and OVER again. You are a SNAKE in the way you dodge accusations and questions and issues that don't fit in with ur very specific and narrow world view.

You seem to be more concerned with WHO said something, rather than the words they ACTUALLY said.

Truth comes from everywhere. But it seems for you it flies out of your tongue.
I have no idea what ur agenda is and I couldn't give a flying ********; it just seems suspicious and leaves a horrible taste in my mouth after reading almost every one of your posts.

Have you agreed with ANYTHING ANY of these earnest Muslims have said?

It seems that the first word you learned as a child was 'no' and you haven't really improved in that respect, you have just discovered more sophisticated and tongue-twistingw ways of saying no.

And is it because you honestly disagree? No, it's because( for one reason or another), you have become a moany old lady (in your own words age is subjective) who hates the world.

I would fell pity but ur too much of a disagreeable person.

May Allah (swt) guide us all to the Right Path, forgive our mistakes, weaknesses and ARROGANCE.

Ameen.

I think everyone needs to calm down.

I agree with almost everything Yaqub has said and I'm sure most others do aswell

Anon, you need to calm down, show some respect to others, not attack everyone and become aggressive.
If you dont change in your method of posting then I will intefere and your posts will be edited or removed altogether.

//YOU ARE THE PIECE OF SHIT

Now fuck off or learn some humanity.//

Proves my point - beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society which is then the model we need to implement in the Muslim world.

Having spoken to Muslims from many groups and movements, the only ones I have heard this sort of abuse are the modernists who unable to defend their problematic ideology resort to abuse or intimidation, somehow thinking it will persuade the opponent!

It is reminiscent of the citation of a modernist leader in Algeria after the FIS elections who praised the military regime's tactics at arresting, killing and torturing Muslims - as "democracy" had to be protected!

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

I agree with almost everything Yaqub has said and I'm sure most others do aswell

I know you would agree with him including his abuse - I had little expectation to the contrary. You exhibited similar emotional and abusive inclinations in our earlier discussions.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Anon, you need to calm down, show some respect to others, not attack everyone and become aggressive.

Maybe you can point out where I am agrressive - refuting someone's dubious political analysis is not agressive. If someone is unhappy at the refutation maybe they should not post badly thought out material and become sarcy - especially if they do not want a response in kind.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

If you dont change in your method of posting then I will intefere and your posts will be edited or removed altogether.

If you can't refute a post, edit it or ban it - I understand... the government are having a similar problem with people who speak against them

//May Allah (swt) guide us all to the Right Path, forgive our mistakes, weaknesses and ARROGANCE.//

Remember Allah(swt) does not forgive you for rights you have taken of others - abusing one's honor is for the one abused to demand on the day of judgement...

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF Said:
//...you just want to show off.
You just think everyone's stupid and no-one's ever done philosophy and you're this amazing new novelty come to 'show us the light'
My point was that you're not superior to anyone. You're so narrow minded and overly self assured that you're the actual irony of philosophy.
Why would I blame You for my ignorance? I definitely blame you for your own though.
You're ridiculous, you hypocrite. //

Yaqoub Said:
//This is a sincere, 17 year old young woman asking genuine questions and seeking intellignetly//

Yes, quite easy to conclude a sincere 17 year old woman asking genuine questions and seeking intelligently - I would dread to meet one who was insincere with non-genuine questions with answers sought unintelligently!!!

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

Anonymous1 wrote:

//May Allah (swt) guide us all to the Right Path, forgive our mistakes, weaknesses and ARROGANCE.//

Remember Allah(swt) does not forgive you for rights you have taken of others - abusing one's honor is for the one abused to demand on the day of judgement...

Erm when you alluded to the fact that i was insincere and unintelligent, was that not an abuse of my honour?

Maybe you can point out where I said you were insincere and unintelligent - or maybe you are jumping to conclusions!

Dear Anonymous1,

Why are you here?

What do you gain from the forum threads?

Are you here to test our patience?

I think you should read your own answers back to yourself. They will probably make you laugh.

Cheers.

Anonymous1 wrote:

Proves my point - beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society which is then the model we need to implement in the Muslim world.

What are your expectations?

High?

You think people are perfect?

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

Anonymous1 wrote:

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF Said:
//...you just want to show off.
You just think everyone's stupid and no-one's ever done philosophy and you're this amazing new novelty come to 'show us the light'
My point was that you're not superior to anyone. You're so narrow minded and overly self assured that you're the actual irony of philosophy.
Why would I blame You for my ignorance? I definitely blame you for your own though.
You're ridiculous, you hypocrite. //

Yaqoub Said:
//This is a sincere, 17 year old young woman asking genuine questions and seeking intellignetly//

Yes, quite easy to conclude a sincere 17 year old woman asking genuine questions and seeking intelligently - I would dread to meet one who was insincere with non-genuine questions with answers sought unintelligently!!!

Fair enough if you think I'm unintelligent, you may be entirely justified in thinking that.

I think you are jumping to conclusions again... the rhetorical device I used is called irony - it makes no assertions about you.

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

But how can you know how genuine or sincere I am?

I'm not here to judge your sincerity - you should read my posts a little more carefully. They address incorrect concepts.

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

From the minute you've been here, all you've tried to do is rock the boat. I'm not making a judgement but all you SEEM to be is a Devil's advocate, with no real purpose.

A devil's advocate has a positive purpose - to force someone to think more deeply about the ideas they carry... it often forces people to recognise fallacious thought...

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

Excuse me

You're excused!

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

but I don't believe that it's my sincerity that's in question here...

You repeat that often - maybe you should see a psychiatrist/psychologist - you appear to be exhibiting symptoms of lack of self-confidence...

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

if this is genuinely you, this person who could totally overlook any kind of genuine advice or discussion when it's not an argument then I truly believe your life needs reassessing.

I see - you believe viotriolic and foul abuse, that you usually find in those who grow up in the gutter, is genuine advice, I must say you have an extremely figurative mode of interpretation of language...

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

If you haven't, then I think you should read what Ya'qub actually said. Really READ it. It was genuine and heartfelt, I think you could gain something from it if you tried.

It certainly will increase my vocab - however I'm not into degrading myself by entering into his level of debate that would no doubt necessitate me insulting his mother or sister, and he returning in kind with similar obscenities or worse increasingly getting worse and worse - I'll wait till the day of judgement and ask for my rights then ia.
I have yet to see any substantive post he's made since he's been here. YOU has been generally engaging and has some confidence in his ideas, ed and yaq however are little different from each other, resorting to what underlies their thin veneer of Islam very quickly with the least of provocations.

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

I know you were being sarcastic, and though you made no explicit assertions, the tacit implications are pretty clear.

I was being ironic not sarcastic.
As there were no explicit assertions, you should be careful to assert allegations, especially when you are interpreting "tacit implications", implications of implications (whatever that means!).

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

Besides, why speak falsely now? It's a little late to take feelings into consideration.

I avoid attacking individuals - ideas and concepts are free to be critiqued.

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

I think you're confused about what a devil's advocate is, you've given it a whole new meaning. look it up, but I definitely agree that you are one.

Devil's advocate can refer to "One who debates from a view which they may not actually hold, usually to determine its validity" - I argue only those positions I actually believe in.

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

When i said you could gain from Ya'qub's posts you automatically jumped to a part where he betrayed his anger and totally disregarded everything else he spent time writing.

That element was sufficient to indicate his underlying personality...

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

Also, Ya'qub's irritation was only in response to your provocation,

Of-course, that explains it - he doesn't have a problem, it's other people who make him exhibit such jahilliyah. Just like a brute who batters his wife black and blue, she's to blame - she provokes him to do it!

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF wrote:

You just seem to be intent on rubbing people up the wrong way.

There is a difference between rubbing up people the wrong way and rubbing their ideas up the wrong way - dawah requires the latter. Why were Quraysh so upset with the Prophet(saw) and the companions? They rubbed their ideas up the wrong way... and that's the problem with Muslims today - they don't scrutinise ideas sufficiently, and the first person to do it, they take it personally, continually moan about someone's knowledge, intelligence, style etc etc etc rather than simply engage and address the argument.

As I said, you may find YOU's style instructive if you don't like mine - at least he has made me think about a number of ideas, pushed me to justify my position, go and look things up etc I vehemently disagree with his underlying modernist ideology, seeing it as veering away from classical scholarship and strongly affected by western influences, but genuinely respect his efforts to try following an argument through, despite lack of elegance and refinment from time to time in my responses...

(All this talk from everyone about how great I am just reminds me how much of a hypocrite I am... one day I will be foind out and it will not be pretty.)

Anonymous1 wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

I agree with almost everything Yaqub has said and I'm sure most others do aswell

I know you would agree with him including his abuse - I had little expectation to the contrary. You exhibited similar emotional and abusive inclinations in our earlier discussions.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Anon, you need to calm down, show some respect to others, not attack everyone and become aggressive.

Maybe you can point out where I am agrressive - refuting someone's dubious political analysis is not agressive. If someone is unhappy at the refutation maybe they should not post badly thought out material and become sarcy - especially if they do not want a response in kind.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

If you dont change in your method of posting then I will intefere and your posts will be edited or removed altogether.

If you can't refute a post, edit it or ban it - I understand... the government are having a similar problem with people who speak against them

you've done nothing but cause fitnah here
so how much do the BNP pay you for doing their job?

OK anon, there is so much to deal with, and I'm not quite sure why I'm giving so much time to TRYING my UTMOST to put a mirror up so you can see the way you deal with people (especially other Muslims).

//YOU ARE THE PIECE OF SHIT

Now fuck off or learn some humanity.//

Proves my point - beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society which is then the model we need to implement in the Muslim world.

What you missed was the point of me saying this. Rawry had asked you (more than once) to stick to discussing THIS topic, and you simply hadn't. In fact, you said:

maybe uni will open up your thinking... but then again, with an attitude opposed to thinking it probably won't...

I found this condescending and hurtful, and (rightly or wrongly) compared it to treating her questions and thoughts like shit. My point was IF you speak to someone like this, THEN you are the piece of shit.

It was not a baseless accusation. BUT, If I was mistaken and, in fact, you were NOT implying that the questions she asked display an an 'attitude opposed to thinking', then I sincerely apologise.

Next point:

In the same quote above, you said...

beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society

...directly about me. Whether or not this is hurtful is irrelevant.

You have, on previous occasions, claimed that you NEVER judge individuals. So now you have displayed HYPOCRISY. I don't need to remind you how serious a trait hypocrisy is.

Next point:

Having spoken to Muslims from many groups and movements, the only ones I have heard this sort of abuse are the modernists who unable to defend their problematic ideology resort to abuse or intimidation, somehow thinking it will persuade the opponent!

If you had read any of my previous points, you would have realised that ideologically you and I are very similar. There are very few things you have asserted that I did not already agree with, certainly not any 'major' issues.

My problem with you from the beginning (no, actually at the beginning I was defending you and pleading with people to be more polite to you), is the WAY you have put people down (some as young as 14/15 years old!!!), degraded others, made sarcastic comments... I could go on but I assume you will feign ignorance of any of this, and other people don't need to be reminded of it.

Next point:

MakeMeRawr_7TeenF Said:
//...you just want to show off.
You just think everyone's stupid and no-one's ever done philosophy and you're this amazing new novelty come to 'show us the light'
My point was that you're not superior to anyone. You're so narrow minded and overly self assured that you're the actual irony of philosophy.
Why would I blame You for my ignorance? I definitely blame you for your own though.
You're ridiculous, you hypocrite. //

Yaqoub Said:
//This is a sincere, 17 year old young woman asking genuine questions and seeking intellignetly//

Yes, quite easy to conclude a sincere 17 year old woman asking genuine questions and seeking intelligently - I would dread to meet one who was insincere with non-genuine questions with answers sought unintelligently!!!

You have put Rawry's quote before mine when in fact they were posted the other way round (deliberately or not I have no idea); either way they were both written at the same time, and in response to you starting a post with:

People talk on subjects they don't understand and often make ignorant claims - when corrected, instead of defending their ideas which they cannot, they have to attack the accuser

Rawry never said she understood the topic, that is why she started a thread ASKING about it. And she didn't accuse you of anything either. In fact, the only person on this forum who has ducked criticisms of their assertions, and instead attacked the person making the criticisms is anonymouse.

The way you talk about any topic, is as if whatever comes out of your mouth (or fingers on an online forum) is True. Any counter-claim is dealt by you not in an Islamic manner, rather more like a pro-wrestler or a toddler.

That is the most arrogant thing imaginable, and no amount of reading books by all sorts of Muslim and non-Muslim scholars, no amount of smugly sitting, looking down your nose at people who are willing to admit their lack of knowledge, no amount of ducking and diving any question which might show you up as having a gap in your understanding will help you get rid of this arrogance.

Next point

viotriolic and foul abuse, that you usually find in those who grow up in the gutter, is genuine advice

I don't swear regularly, and I didn't 'grow up in the gutter', either. I know you have tried carefully to word your sentence so as not to make a direct insult. However, I am not a fool and implying some sort of superiority over me because of my upbringing is (though less crude) a lot more insulting.

OH NO!! YOU HAVE NOW LOST THE MORAL HIGHGROUND!!!!!!!!

Now, you have set a precedent of NEVER answering any questions, but I have one that I would VERY much like to hear the answer to.

If you're so sure you're in the right, why are you so miserable?

In conclusion:

Argue your points, refute others.

BUT DON'T BE SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON IN THE WAY YOU DO IT.

I really can't see how that is so difficult for someone with such a high intellect as yourself.

Has this topic run its course?

I think it needs to be locked but I will give it a few hours, let anon1 reply before considering any actions to be taken.

Ya'qub wrote:

//YOU ARE THE PIECE OF SHIT
Now fuck off or learn some humanity.//
Proves my point - beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society which is then the model we need to implement in the Muslim world.

What you missed was the point of me saying this. Rawry had asked you (more than once) to stick to discussing THIS topic, and you simply hadn't.
It was not a baseless accusation. BUT, If I was mistaken and, in fact, you were NOT implying that the questions she asked display an an 'attitude opposed to thinking', then I sincerely apologise.

So this language is justifiable - you just need to be provoked indirectly...
And you even accept that there may well have been legitimacy in what I said?!

Ya'qub wrote:

beneath the thin veneer of Islam, underlying jahil concepts still exist, absorbed by living in this messed up society

...directly about me. Whether or not this is hurtful is irrelevant.

It is a factual statement - most of us have jahil concepts beneath the veneers of Islam we carry - you are not exception. A few questions would soon expose it... unless you are claiming to be perfect? If that's the case, explain the abuse.

Ya'qub wrote:

You have, on previous occasions, claimed that you NEVER judge individuals. So now you have displayed HYPOCRISY. I don't need to remind you how serious a trait hypocrisy is.

I don't judge people according to their hidden inner thoughts and feelings - they are usually not disclose and one cannot judge a person, their sincerity etc without information.
The concepts that they do expose, I do judge and categorise accordingly - something which I have done regularly, eg label people modernists, secularists, sufis, classicists, traditionalists, deobandis, salafis...

Ya'qub wrote:

In fact, the only person on this forum who has ducked criticisms of their assertions, and instead attacked the person making the criticisms is anonymouse.

Maybe you can provide an assertion I avoid - I'll happily answer it and put your mind at rest!

Ya'qub wrote:

The way you talk about any topic, is as if whatever comes out of your mouth (or fingers on an online forum) is True.

On topics like democracy, nationalism, national identities etc what I say is the truth - they are kufr systems and those who talk about them are so superficial that their arguments are just laughable. Thus if you think these ideas are Islamic, I would ask you to substantiate it.

Ya'qub wrote:

viotriolic and foul abuse, that you usually find in those who grow up in the gutter, is genuine advice

I don't swear regularly, and I didn't 'grow up in the gutter', either. I know you have tried carefully to word your sentence so as not to make a direct insult.

So you now have to analyse my intentions moving away from what is actually written in order to take offence - LOL

Ya'qub wrote:

Now, you have set a precedent of NEVER answering any questions, but I have one that I would VERY much like to hear the answer to.
If you're so sure you're in the right, why are you so miserable?

Because the state of the Ummah is so bad, their brothers and sisters in Britain are sitting around watching football, enjoying their fun lifestyles, occassionally send across a sticky plaster and think Allah will not account them for the obligations he imposes on them - which they don't even have a clue about!

Worse, they undergo selectivism processes to even justify this and their disgraceful situations by bringing isolated and exceptional traditions without any context to show the Prophet(Saw) and his companions sat around doing jack! Ignoring the thousands of texts that show them striving, struggling and sacrificing!

If you are happy at this situation and think life's about fun, shame on you!

We should be spending our time, efforts and energies and exhausting ourselves to help them and bring about change in our lands - rather than keeping our heads down, keeping our mouths shut in case we lose our luxurious lifestyles in this society! Sacrifice is important!

anon1 wrote:

Because the state of the Ummah is so bad, their brothers and sisters in Britain are sitting around watching football, enjoying their fun lifestyles, occassionally send across a sticky plaster and think Allah will not account them for the obligations he imposes on them - which they don't even have a clue about!

Worse, they undergo selectivism processes to even justify this and their disgraceful situations by bringing isolated and exceptional traditions without any context to show the Prophet(Saw) and his companions sat around doing jack! Ignoring the thousands of texts that show them striving, struggling and sacrificing!

If you are happy at this situation and think life's about fun, shame on you!

We should be spending our time, efforts and energies and exhausting ourselves to help them and bring about change in our lands - rather than keeping our heads down, keeping our mouths shut in case we lose our luxurious lifestyles in this society! Sacrifice is important!

So what are you doing to help these people?

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

anon1 wrote:

Because the state of the Ummah is so bad, their brothers and sisters in Britain are sitting around watching football, enjoying their fun lifestyles, occassionally send across a sticky plaster and think Allah will not account them for the obligations he imposes on them - which they don't even have a clue about!

Worse, they undergo selectivism processes to even justify this and their disgraceful situations by bringing isolated and exceptional traditions without any context to show the Prophet(Saw) and his companions sat around doing jack! Ignoring the thousands of texts that show them striving, struggling and sacrificing!

If you are happy at this situation and think life's about fun, shame on you!

We should be spending our time, efforts and energies and exhausting ourselves to help them and bring about change in our lands - rather than keeping our heads down, keeping our mouths shut in case we lose our luxurious lifestyles in this society! Sacrifice is important!

So what are you doing to help these people?

What the Prophet(saw) and his companions did when faced with the same situation...

which was?

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

which was?

Maybe you can tell me - it is an obligation on all Muslims - they, including you, surely should know what should be done and what the Prophet(saw) and his companions did? Or am I mistaken?

if i knew i wouldn't be asking you, duh!

[size=8] i've probably read/heard about it[/size]

Well maybe you should do some research and find out! D'uh!

u are actually unbelievable.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

u are actually unbelievable.

Yes says the one who belittles others and then moans and whinges when she receives the same comment! It comes across as a double standard!

when did i belittle your comment?
Moan & Whinge? LOL

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

when did i belittle your comment?
Moan & Whinge? LOL

Duh!

Did you mature too fast as a kid? Is that why you're so immature now?