An interesting article/comment on the Times websote that is a good read I think - accounts from a few people who have converted to Islam. What they have in common is that they are young, free thinking and female - the article mentions how 2/3rd of converts to Islam in the UK are female.
The conversion of people to Islam really does challenge those prejudiced against it, but at the same time their hatred of Islam may even help promote Islam - if you are confronted with something you are more likely to research it and sometimes even if you are researching a matter in order to refute it the innate beauty of Islam can still win out and overcome the prejudice with actual fact and knowledge.
I should link to this as I do other news stories, but Murdoch Media (TM) is probably going to be behind a paywall within a few short days... so quoted in full:
Thousands of young British women living in the UK decide to convert to Islam - here are some of their stories
It’s a controversial time for British women to be wearing the hijab, the basic Muslim headscarf. Last month, Belgium became the first European country to pass legislation to ban the burka (the most concealing of Islamic veils), calling it a “threat” to female dignity, while France looks poised to follow suit. In Italy earlier this month, a Muslim woman was fined €500 (£430) for wearing the Islamic veil outside a post office.
And yet, while less than 2 per cent of the population now attends a Church of England service every week, the number of female converts to Islam is on the rise. At the London Central Mosque in Regent’s Park, women account for roughly two thirds of the “New Muslims” who make their official declarations of faith there – and most of them are under the age of 30.
Conversion statistics are frustratingly patchy, but at the time of the 2001 Census, there were at least 30,000 British Muslim converts in the UK. According to Kevin Brice, of the Centre for Migration Policy Research, Swansea University, this number may now be closer to 50,000 – and the majority are women. “Basic analysis shows that increasing numbers of young, university-educated women in their twenties and thirties are converting to Islam,” confirms Brice.
“Our liberal, pluralistic 21st-century society means we can choose our careers, our politics – and we can pick and choose who we want to be spiritually,” explains Dr Mohammad S. Seddon, lecturer in Islamic Studies at the University of Chester. We’re in an era of the “religious supermarket”, he says.
Joanne Bailey
Solicitor, 30, Bradford
“The first time I wore my hijab into the office, I was so nervous, I stood outside on the phone to my friend for ages going, ‘What on earth is everyone going to say?’ When I walked in, a couple of people asked, ‘Why are you wearing that scarf? I didn’t know you were a Muslim.’
“I’m the last person you’d expect to convert to Islam: I had a very sheltered, working-class upbringing in South Yorkshire. I’d hardly even seen a Muslim before I went to university.
“In my first job at a solicitor’s firm in Barnsley, I remember desperately trying to play the role of the young, single, career woman: obsessively dieting, shopping and going to bars – but I never felt truly comfortable.
“Then one afternoon in 2004 everything changed: I was chatting to a Muslim friend over coffee, when he noticed the little gold crucifix around my neck. He said, ‘Do you believe in God, then?’ I wore it more for fashion than religion and said, ‘No, I don’t think so,’ and he started talking about his faith.
“I brushed him off at first, but his words stuck in my mind. A few days later, I found myself ordering a copy of the Koran on the internet.
“It took me a while to work up the courage to go to a women’s social event run by the Leeds New Muslims group. I remember hovering outside the door thinking, ‘What the hell am I doing here?’ I imagined they would be dressed head-to-toe in black robes: what could I, a 25-year-old, blonde English girl, possibly have in common with them?
“But when I walked in, none of them fitted the stereotype of the oppressed Muslim housewife; they were all doctors, teachers and psychiatrists. I was struck by how content and secure they seemed. It was meeting these women, more than any of the books I read, that convinced me that I wanted to become a Muslim.
“After four years, in March 2008, I made the declaration of faith at a friend’s house. At first, I was anxious that I hadn’t done the right thing, but I soon relaxed into it – a bit like starting a new job.
“A few months later, I sat my parents down and said, ‘I’ve got something to tell you.’ There was a silence and my mum said, ‘You’re going to become Muslim, aren’t you?’ She burst into tears and kept asking things like, ‘What happens when you get married? Do you have to cover up? What about your job?’ I tried to reassure her that I’d still be me, but she was concerned for my welfare.
“Contrary to what most people think, Islam doesn’t oppress me; it lets me be the person that I was all along. Now I’m so much more content and grateful for the things I’ve got. A few months ago, I got engaged to a Muslim solicitor I met on a training course. He has absolutely no problem with my career, but I do agree with the Islamic perspective on the traditional roles for men and women. I want to look after my husband and children, but I also want my independence. I’m proud to be British and I’m proud to be Muslim – and I don’t see them as conflicting in any way.”
Aqeela Lindsay Wheeler
Housewife and mother, 26, Leicester
“As a teenager I thought all religion was pathetic. I used to spend every weekend getting drunk outside the leisure centre, in high-heeled sandals and miniskirts. My view was: what’s the point in putting restrictions on yourself? You only live once.
“At university, I lived the typical student existence, drinking and going clubbing, but I’d always wake up the next morning with a hangover and think, what’s the point?
“It wasn’t until my second year that I met Hussein. I knew he was a Muslim, but we were falling in love, so I brushed the whole issue of religion under the carpet. But six months into our relationship, he told me that being with me was ‘against his faith’.
“I was so confused. That night I sat up all night reading two books on Islam that Hussein had given me. I remember bursting into tears because I was so overwhelmed. I thought, ‘This could be the whole meaning of life.’ But I had a lot of questions: why should I cover my head? Why can’t I eat what I like?
“I started talking to Muslim women at university and they completely changed my view. They were educated, successful – and actually found the headscarf liberating. I was convinced, and three weeks later officially converted to Islam.
“When I told my mum a few weeks later, I don’t think she took it seriously. She made a few comments like, ‘Why would you wear that scarf? You’ve got lovely hair,’ but she didn’t seem to understand what it meant.
“My best friend at university completely turned on me: she couldn’t understand how one week I was out clubbing, and the next I’d given everything up and converted to Islam. She was too close to my old life, so I don’t regret losing her as a friend.
“I chose the name Aqeela because it means ‘sensible and intelligent’ – and that’s what I was aspiring to become when I converted to Islam six years ago. I became a whole new person: everything to do with Lindsay, I’ve erased from my memory.
“The most difficult thing was changing the way I dressed, because I was always so fashion-conscious. The first time I tried on the hijab, I remember sitting in front of the mirror, thinking, ‘What am I doing putting a piece of cloth over my head? I look crazy!’ Now I’d feel naked without it and only occasionally daydream about feeling the wind blow through my hair. Once or twice, I’ve come home and burst into tears because of how frumpy I feel – but that’s just vanity.
“It’s a relief not to feel that pressure any more. Wearing the hijab reminds me that all I need to do is serve God and be humble. I’ve even gone through phases of wearing the niqab [face veil] because I felt it was more appropriate – but it can cause problems, too.
“When people see a white girl wearing a niqab they assume I’ve stuck my fingers up at my own culture to ‘follow a bunch of Asians’. I’ve even had teenage boys shout at me in the street, ‘Get that s*** off your head, you white bastard.’ After the London bombings, I was scared to walk about in the streets for fear of retaliation.
“For the most part, I have a very happy life. I married Hussein and now we have a one-year-old son, Zakir. We try to follow the traditional Muslim roles: I’m foremost a housewife and mother, while he goes out to work. I used to dream of having a successful career as a psychologist, but now it’s not something I desire.
“Becoming a Muslim certainly wasn’t an easy way out. This life can sometimes feel like a prison, with so many rules and restrictions, but we believe that we will be rewarded in the afterlife.”
Catherine Heseltine
Nursery school teacher, 31, North London
“If you’d asked me at the age of 16 if I’d like to become a Muslim, I would have said, ‘No thanks.’ I was quite happy drinking, partying and fitting in with my friends.
“Growing up in North London, we never practised religion at home; I always thought it was slightly old-fashioned and irrelevant. But when I met my future husband, Syed, in the sixth form, he challenged all my preconceptions. He was young, Muslim, believed in God – and yet he was normal. The only difference was that, unlike most teenage boys, he never drank.
“A year later, we were head over heels in love, but we quickly realised: how could we be together if he was a Muslim and I wasn’t?
“Before meeting Syed, I’d never actually questioned what I believed in; I’d just picked up my casual agnosticism through osmosis. So I started reading a few books on Islam out of curiosity.
“In the beginning, the Koran appealed to me on an intellectual level; the emotional and spiritual side didn’t come until later. I loved its explanations of the natural world and discovered that 1,500 years ago, Islam gave women rights that they didn’t have here in the West until relatively recently. It was a revelation.
“Religion wasn’t exactly a ‘cool’ thing to talk about, so for three years I kept my interest in Islam to myself. But in my first year at university, Syed and I decided to get married – and I knew it was time to tell my parents. My mum’s initial reaction was, ‘Couldn’t you just live together first?’ She had concerns about me rushing into marriage and the role of women in Muslim households – but no one realised how seriously I was taking my religious conversion. I remember going out for dinner with my dad and him saying, ‘Go on, have a glass of wine. I won’t tell Syed!’ A lot of people assumed I was only converting to Islam to keep his family happy, not because I believed in it.
“Later that year, we had an enormous Bengali wedding, and moved into a flat together – but I certainly wasn’t chained to the kitchen sink. I didn’t even wear the hijab at all to start with, and wore a bandana or a hat instead.
“I was used to getting a certain amount of attention from guys when I went out to clubs and bars, but I had to let that go. I gradually adopted the Islamic way of thinking: I wanted people to judge me for my intelligence and my character – not for the way I looked. It was empowering.
“I’d never been part of a religious minority before, so that was a big adjustment, but my friends were very accepting. Some of them were a bit shocked: ‘What, no drink, no drugs, no men? I couldn’t do that!’ And it took a while for my male friends at university to remember things like not kissing me hello on the cheek any more. I’d have to say, ‘Sorry, it’s a Muslim thing.’
“Over time, I actually became more religious than my husband. We started growing apart in other ways, too. In the end, I think the responsibility of marriage was too much for him; he became distant and disengaged. After seven years together, I decided to get a divorce.
“When I moved back in with my parents, people were surprised I was still wandering around in a headscarf. But if anything, being on my own strengthened my faith: I began to gain a sense of myself as a Muslim, independent of him.
“Islam has given me a sense of direction and purpose. I’m involved with the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, and lead campaigns against Islamophobia, discrimination against women in mosques, poverty and the situation in Palestine. When people call us ‘extremists’ or ‘the dark underbelly of British politics’, I just think it’s ridiculous. There are a lot of problems in the Muslim community, but when people feel under siege it makes progress even more difficult.
“I still feel very much part of white British society, but I am also a Muslim. It has taken a while to fit those two identities together, but now I feel very confident being who I am. I’m part of both worlds and no one can take that away from me.”
Sukina Douglas
Spoken-word poet, 28, London
“Before I found Islam, my gaze was firmly fixed on Africa. I was raised a Rastafarian and used to have crazy-long dreadlocks: one half blonde and the other half black.
“Then, in 2005, my ex-boyfriend came back from a trip to Africa and announced that he’d converted to Islam. I was furious and told him he was ‘losing his African roots’. Why was he trying to be an Arab? It was so foreign to how I lived my life. Every time I saw a Muslim woman in the street I thought, ‘Why do they have to cover up like that? Aren’t they hot?’ It looked oppressive to me.
“Islam was already in my consciousness, but when I started reading the autobiography of Malcolm X at university, something opened up inside me. One day I said to my best friend, Muneera, ‘I’m falling in love with Islam.’ She laughed and said, ‘Be quiet, Sukina!’ She only started exploring Islam to prove me wrong, but soon enough she started believing it, too.
“I was always passionate about women’s rights; there was no way I would have entered a religion that sought to degrade me. So when I came across a book by a Moroccan feminist, it unravelled all my negative opinions: Islam didn’t oppress women; people did.
“Before I converted, I conducted an experiment. I covered up in a long gypsy skirt and headscarf and went out. But I didn’t feel frumpy; I felt beautiful. I realised, I’m not a sexual commodity for men to lust after; I want to be judged for what I contribute mentally.
“Muneera and I took our shahada [declaration of faith] together a few months later, and I cut my dreadlocks off to represent renewal: it was the beginning of a new life.
“Just three weeks after our conversion, the 7/7 bombings happened; suddenly we were public enemy No 1. I’d never experienced racism in London before, but in the weeks after the bombs, people would throw eggs at me and say, ‘Go back to your own country,’ even though this was my country.
“I’m not trying to shy away from any aspect of who I am. Some people dress in Arabian or Pakistani styles, but I’m British and Caribbean, so my national dress is Primark and Topshop, layered with colourful charity-shop scarves.
“Six months after I converted, I got back together with my ex-boyfriend, and now we’re married. Our roles in the home are different, because we are different people, but he would never try to order me around; that’s not how I was raised.
“Before I found Islam, I was a rebel without a cause, but now I have a purpose in life: I can identify my flaws and work towards becoming a better person. To me, being a Muslim means contributing to your society, no matter where you come from.”
Catherine Huntley
Retail assistant, 21, Bournemouth
“My parents always thought I was abnormal, even before I became a Muslim. In my early teens, they’d find me watching TV on a Friday night and say, ‘What are you doing at home? Haven’t you got any friends to go out with?’
“The truth was: I didn’t like alcohol, I’ve never tried smoking and I wasn’t interested in boys. You’d think they’d have been pleased.
“I’ve always been quite a spiritual person, so when I started studying Islam in my first year of GCSEs, something just clicked. I would spend every lunchtime reading about Islam on the computer. I had peace in my heart and nothing else mattered any more. It was a weird experience – I’d found myself, but the person I found wasn’t like anyone else I knew.
“I’d hardly ever seen a Muslim before, so I didn’t have any preconceptions, but my parents weren’t so open-minded. I hid all my Muslim books and headscarves in a drawer, because I was so scared they’d find out.
“When I told my parents, they were horrified and said, ‘We’ll talk about it when you’re 18.’ But my passion for Islam just grew stronger. I started dressing more modestly and would secretly fast during Ramadan. I got very good at leading a double life until one day, when I was 17, I couldn’t wait any longer.
“I sneaked out of the house, put my hijab in a carrier bag and got on the train to Bournemouth. I must have looked completely crazy putting it on in the train carriage, using a wastebin lid as a mirror. When a couple of old people gave me dirty looks, I didn’t care. For the first time in my life, I felt like myself.
“A week after my conversion, my mum came marching into my room and said, ‘Have you got something to tell me?’ She pulled my certificate of conversion out of her pocket. I think they’d rather have found anything else at that point – drugs, cigarettes, condoms – because at least they could have put it down to teenage rebellion.
“I could see the fear in her eyes. She couldn’t comprehend why I’d want to give up my freedom for the sake of a foreign religion. Why would I want to join all those terrorists and suicide bombers?
“It was hard being a Muslim in my parents’ house. I’ll never forget one evening, there were two women in burkas on the front page of the newspaper, and they started joking, ‘That’ll be Catherine soon.’
“They didn’t like me praying five times a day either; they thought it was ‘obsessive’. I’d pray right in front of my bedroom door so my mum couldn’t walk in, but she would always call upstairs, ‘Catherine, do you want a cup of tea?’ just so I’d have to stop.
“Four years on, my grandad still says things like, ‘Muslim women have to walk three steps behind their husbands.’ It gets me really angry, because that’s the culture, not the religion. My fiancé, whom I met eight months ago, is from Afghanistan and he believes that a Muslim woman is a pearl and her husband is the shell that protects her. I value that old-fashioned way of life: I’m glad that when we get married he’ll take care of paying the bills. I always wanted to be a housewife anyway.
“Marrying an Afghan man was the cherry on the cake for my parents. They think I’m completely crazy now. He’s an accountant and actually speaks better English than I do, but they don’t care. The wedding will be in a mosque, so I don’t think they’ll come. It hurts to think I’ll never have that fairytale wedding, surrounded by my family. But I hope my new life with my husband will be a lot happier. I’ll create the home I’ve always wanted, without having to feel the pain of people judging me.”
Taken from TimesOnline
A linked to topic is what you do with people once they accept Islam? How do you know that they are not simply abandoned the next day in an alien world? In America they have the Ta'leef Collective (the link contains a thought proviking video). A very important issue as it can cause a lot of problems.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
//I’m proud to be British and I’m proud to be Muslim – and I don’t see them as conflicting in any way.//
As soon as you start understanding the social and political dimenstions of Islam, and what the British national identity actually means, you will no doubt start to see the irreconcilable tensions and conflicts between the two...
what does it mean?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
if you have a problem with being British than why live here?
(i'm assuming you do)
She has the same right to live in the UK as the rest of us amd questioning ot may not be thebest of ideas (but ot would be interesting to know her reasoning...)
Besides not all Muslims in the UK are from ethnic minorities.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Do you have no problem with any aspect of life in Britain?
If you do, do you jump on the first place out of here?
Is that place perfect or do you have problems with some issues there?
Do you perpetually leave country after country?
(And yes, you should be careful in your assumptions!)
nope.
A complex and abstract socio-political construct that can be defined as follows:
"A named human population sharing an historic territory, common myths and historic memories, a mass, a public culture, a common economy, and common legal duties and rights."
Thus a British national identity will differ to a Pakistani one which will differ from an Egyptian national identity... which will differ from an Islamic identity - as each component will have different content and configuration according to each society and the driving socio-political and economic ideological currents...
Immediately one can see the "legal duties and rights" in each of the identities will be conflicting - the Muslim will give supremacy to sharia, whilst a Brit will give it to Parliament, a Pak to National Congress etc. How can one give supremacy to different laws (and their sources) especially when they are conflicting at the same time? For example, can one believe interest is allowed and not-allowed simultaneously?
Likewise, as one tabulates each identity, one notices a pattern emerging as they answer what they personally believe - one finds one generally falls into one of the identities whilst areas of tensions and contradictions start emerging amongst the others...
For the one who is a secular Muslim, they will reduce Islam to a set of rituals and feel comfortable with multiple national identities - someone who studies Islam a little more comprehensively, including its socio-political and economic dimensions, multiple identities become more of a problem...
None of what you posted there means anything. it is as if quoted from a textbook.
What does the British identity mean? Can we please have specifics instead of hyperbole?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
If you don't understand it, just say so.
The definition is that of Anthony Smith of the London School of Economics - an expert on national identities. Other researchers have similar definitions.
So you have no problem with abortions, sexual promiscuity, freely available alcohol/tobacco, sale of pork, interest bearing debt, bars, lap dancing clubs, gay rights, wars on Iraq/Afghanistan, weapon sales to Israel...?
nope.
if people want to drink alcohol who am i to stop them?
everyone has free will.
It is not a matter of not understanding. It is a matter that that contains no information.
There is no definition in there about British or Islamic identity much less a discussion about where they are mututally opposed.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
No one is asking you to participate in these... and these can also happen in the Muslim world or in a khilafah too - remember that spying would not be allowed so if this was happening there would be nothing to curtail it.
Would a shariah state ban Non Muslims from these activities? If not, how would a shariah state be any different if it was operating in the UK compared to what we have now?
and Non Muslims are against this too. I would hazard that the majority of Britons would have rather there were no wards and that Israel was not sold weaponry. We all agree on here.
It is simply a matter of making sure the leaders are also brought on board.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Apologies but I assumed you were a Muslim - my mistake.
As Muslims we have a problem with all these matters as revelation asks us to have a problem with it. The hadith of our Prophet(saw) states, "Whoever sees an evil must change it by the hand, if he cannot, he must speak against it, if he cannot he must hate it and that is the lowest form of imaan..."
Furthermore, there are many ayaat and other narrations on the issue of commanding good and forbidding evil - however many of our secular brothers and sisters reduce Islam to a set of rituals and adopt individualism in a style of many other faith based religions thinking they don't have to bother about problems in society that blatantly contradict Islam.
That's why I personally have a problem with these issues and work to change them than run from one country to another - pretty much trying to emulate the Messenger
who also worked to change the evils in his Meccan society...
These happen in secular Muslim countries because of secular elites who permit them through legislation. They would not happen in the Caliphate as the state would prohibit them. What people do in the privacy of their homes is between them and Allah unless another resident makes a complaint which without spying would need to be looked into. EG A wife complaining her husband drinks himself silly and whilst drunk abuses the children.
Yes a Shariah state would ban non-Muslims from these activities. Only those who can show they need to undertake these as part of their religion or religious culture etc would be permitted to do them eg drink alcohol. One notices that even in much of the "secular" Muslim world people are not allowed to undertake homosexual activities as few if any religions allow it.
Actually we don't all agree here - Noor has no problem with even these issues - otherwise she would have to retract what she wrote earlier, a dilemma for her!
And most British have no problems selling arms to Israel or having ties - nor do they have a problem with the invasion of Afghanistan - they just can't see how they are going to exploit that society to pay for the costs they are incurring!
and that is tempered by "there is no compulsion is religion" from the Qur'an along with other verses saying that it is God who guides.
If you see a crime against another human, then yes, you need to stop it happening. But when the matter is between the individual and God, there is less of a need to intervene - but know that the matter is wrong and speak about the evil too.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Another thing here is that we should be glad and accepting of these new people who have taken a large step in life and accepted Islam instead of then being dismissive over nothings such as "but they call themselves british!"
Such a stupid thing to dismiss new Muslims over and it shows a hatred that should not be there.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
New style of fiqh - make it up as you go along - the hadith state WHOEVER SEES A MUNKAR must change it by the hand - and you choose to apply it "to crimes against a human and there is a less of a need to intervene in matters between individual and God" without citation of any further evidence to explain the shift from the order of the Prophet(saw).
Either one intervenes in matters between individual and God or one does not - what's this "less of a need"???
If someone, new or old Muslim, has some understanding and writes an article promoting that understanding, no problem.
If however they promote something haram or kufr, we should speak against it and not defend it.
You are implying that it should be defended and the things that are haram are "nothings". Ignore the definitions, the arguments, the critique, just call it nothing and all is fine!
Interesting...
The above verses are not relevant to the subject being discussed, namely, should we have a problem or not with evils in society:
- No compulsion in deen means you cannot force someone to believe - this does not apply when someone is saying or doing a munkar, Muslim or not, force can be used. Force for example should be used to stop any woman who is being raped by anyone else. Likewise, one should intervene verbally in relation to anyone who speaks evil or propagates evil, like in the case of the article above.
- The verses talking about Allah guiding/misguiding are verses relating to belief and not actions and the two should not be conflated - the hadith of munkar gives the order in relation to what should be done (action) and the verses tell us what our state of mind should be (belief) - one is required to do the appropriate, well thought out action to their utmost and BELIEVE that it is God (the cause) who allows people to believe or not, to be guided or not, and not us. The belief should not dictate (or be an excuse) for one to do a negligent or ill-informed job of explaining something and blaming it on God that it is he who guides/misguides.
There can be dangers when basing your fiqh on translated ahadith. The classical scholars have pointed out that the three levels apply to different people in different situations. That is not my fiqh but what the classical scholars have said.
This hadith is not in isolation to the rest of Islamic fiqh either. there is the qur'an that says there is no compulsion in religion and then there is again the qur'an which says to preach and spread the word of God with wisdom.
You have to combine all the sources to get the correct determination of what is required and the classical scholars have done that for us centuries ago. (wait, are you a dirty modernist now?)
You cannot choose to follow a hadith and ignore other ahadith and verses of the qur'an too. That way lies misguidance.
(I am kindly assuming that you do not disagree that there is a verse in the qur'an that says there is no compulsion in religion and more, there is another that asks us to use wisdom when preaching the word of Allah (swt).)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Actually, we can clarify this pretty simply - and I may be in the wrong.
We have had Islamic rule before, so we can use that as precedent. We both agree that the Khilafat Rashida was righteous.
So... did they ban non Muslims from alcohol?
It is a simple litmus test.
I have absolutely no idea if they did, but if you can prove that they did, I will admit that you are right.
If on the other hand they didn't (or the issue was not raised in history) then your position on this matter is a new innovation and as traditionalists we will both go back to the traditional sources.
So... did the Caliphs ban non Muslims from drinking alcohol?
EDIT - I have broken the topic into a separate one over here so that others who may be less interested in this discussion can still take part in that, and do the research (I am lazy - but I have been known to admit the errors of my ways when I am wrong and showing the khilafat rashidah banning alcohol for Non Muslims would show the errors of my ways...).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I agree that it is dangerous to extract rules from translated texts - that's why I tend to look at the original arabic - but I'm not sure whether you know Arabic or not so cite in English.
I've not seen any classical scholar blend the verses of no compulsion in deen with the hadith on commanding good and forbidding evil they way you had quoted them - the two are distinct discussions and my discussion in no way has suggested we force people in any shape or form to accept any belief or system. IT must be their free choice otherwise it is hypocrisy.
I accept we should take guidance by the classical scholars who were not influenced by contemporary secular intellectual and political forces (though some faced pressures of their own time which occassionally are reflected in texts and manuscripts). Likewise the Kuhlafah Rashida provide us with a general direction which encompasses a number of good examples of how the texts can be extended and applied.
I'm not too sure what relevancy of alcohol and non-muslims in hte Caliphate have to our discussion - most religious communities generally lived in parallel to Muslim communities managed and regulated according to their own religions and own judges even - the point being whether penal punishments apply to non-Muslims or not, whether their own judges should do it or not etc is debatable. However there are clear texts from Mecca that Allah(swt), the Prophet(saw) and the companions addressed the evils of that society (infanticide, prostitution, polytheism, corruption, fraud, lies, cheating, blind following of traditions etc) comprising of non-Muslims - which substantiates my point quite clearly.
Maybe you can elaborate the point of your query. (I've not researched what the Khulafah Rashida did but I know the prophet(saw) had a Jew stoned to death for adultery and Imam Shafi'i's opinion (a leading classical scholar!) was that tazir should be applied to the non-Muslim who drank alcohol publicy.)
It is at the heart of everything and kind of contradicts your earlier sentiment:
You were questioning the iman of someone here because she did not need to forcibly stop non Muslims from doing haraam. You were asking about how the hadith about stopping what you see is wrong with your hands could be made to coexist with the verse about no compulsion in religion, which I did by looking at the example of the rightly guided caliphs.
Not really - we can still say those things are wrong while being in the UK. What you are now saying is that we are following the example of the early Muslims. Thanks!
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
//It is at the heart of everything and kind of contradicts your earlier sentiment:
You were questioning the iman of someone here because she did not need to forcibly stop non Muslims from doing haraam. You were asking about how the hadith about stopping what you see is wrong with your hands could be made to coexist with the verse about no compulsion in religion, which I did by looking at the example of the rightly guided caliphs.//
Nope - it's not at the heart of everything and does not contradict what I said earlier. The problem is your assumption that it must be done on non-Muslims which I did not state. If Muslims are drinking alcohol, which many do in the UK, this is a munkar. Your search for what the Caliphate did regarding non-Muslims is irrelevant to this.
In the case of alcohol, if Christians drink wine as part of their religious services, one does not have to try changing that as it would not be seen as a munkar. But a forced rape, or assault, whether by Muslim or not would need forcible intervention.
It is interesting how you are defending someone saying they have no problem with all the munkaraat going on - there are so many narrations on the responsibility of Muslim to society that they need to address them and not sit back in a secular fashion and believe there is no problem - to deny this responsibility knowingly raises some serious questions about one's obedience to God.
Examples include:
Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)
Let there be people among you, who invite to the best [in religion]; and command that which is just, and forbid that which is evil; and they shall be happy. (3:104)
And the faithful men, and the faithful women are friends one to another: They command that which is just, and they forbid that which is evil; and they are constant at prayer, and pay their appointed alms; and they obey God, and his apostle: Unto these will God be Merciful; for He [is] Mighty [and] Wise. (9:71)
Those among the Children of Israel[] who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawûd (David) and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allâh and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds. They used not to forbid one another from the Munkar (wrong, evildoing, sins, polytheism, disbelief, etc.) which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do. (5:78)
He also relates on the authority of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "There was not a single Prophet among those who were sent before me who did not have apostles and companions and followed his Sunna and obeyed his commands. But afterwards other generations came whose words belied their deeds, and whose deeds were not in accordance with what they commanded others to do. Whoever struggles against the with his hand is a believer. Whoever struggles against them with his tongue is a believer. And whoever struggles against them with his heart is a believer. But when none of these things are done, then not a single mustard's seed weight of faith is present." (Muslim)
The Prophet (saaws) said: If the people see an evil and they do not change it, soon Allah will inflict them all with His Punishment. (Ahmed)
You are jumping through hoops now. You were talking about the sins of british society and how we can live with the people here in harmony when it is a must on us to fight munkar - you went even as far as questioning the verse "there is no compulsion on religion" which would not have been the case if you were only focusing your rage on Muslims.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Sadly wrong again - you introduced irrelevant texts like no compulsion in deen which I had to clarify what that text meant and it had no relevance to the discussion.
The hadith of munkar is part of a larger discussion as I had said - which requires Muslims to have concerns about social problems (different problems to be addressed differently).
The author has no problem whatsoever whilst living in Britain which is disgraceful in my opinion as Islam requires one to have a problem with evils of this society and the sin that is undertaken - by Muslims and non-Muslims - different sins requiring different responses which are elaborated by further texts.
However those details become irrelevant when the whole attitude is of indifference to start with...It would become like discussing fiqh when someone doesn't even believe in God! One who does not even believe they should care about the problems of society are hardly going to be interested in what should be done... My point is to tell the person you should care and it implies one is secular or confused or lacking in knowledge if one does not... If you disagree with this point, maybe you can provide evidences to say we can live here and not have any cares about social issues or problems?
Let us go back to where this started - your post:
Are you saying that that was aimed exclusively at Muslim activities and it was not a generalized rant about the UK?
that is where it all started from.
then you went on to mention how the Prophet would tell the Makkan Non Muslims about the errors about their ways... once again you were concentrating on the sins of the Non Muslims and asking how we can tolerate that when there is a hadith that we must stop sin if we see with out hands... or quoting you:
Then you also wrote:
but when asked for evidence from the shariah state from the past, you have been either unwilling or unable to provide evidence of this. and then you decided that you were not arguing the above...
It is all written there on this single page. it is not something that required excessive research to find various disparate strands of information.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Interesting discussion, you both have very valid points. Too valid i'd say, makes it very confusing.
Is there any way both views could co-exist in peace?
Is there an actual conclusion? Since they're both opposites, one must be right and the other wrong, without going around in circles how could you decipher that?
Maybe by both of you citing your scholars and sources and then people can see who they trust more?
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
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