Hatred of Islam is being driven by the elites and the establishment in Europe/US in response to the rise of political Islam and its efforts to remove their hegemony in the Muslim world.

No different in actual honesty to the propaganda against Islam of Princes and Kings prior to the crusades - they even used to tell teir populations Muslims ate babies!

The difference between then and now is that Muslims are no longer an unseen bogeyman - the elite cannot make up total lies and expect them to go unchallenged.

Britons in the majority of the UK will have had atleast a cursory contact with some Muslims and that should have a far stronger impact than what someone else said.

I would think recentish events such as the bombings in 2005 and the failed ones a couple of years later would have a greater impact.

And the attempt by Anjum Choudhrary's crew to protest at Wooton Basset hit a lot of sensibilities - even though I think him and his crew were well within their rights to actually do such a thing.

Vocalist wrote:

The simple answer is yes!

Sorry to say this and upset anyone who holds the view that Islam is misunderstood, but a growing portion of the world is coming to the conclusion that Islam is a violent and backwards ideology!

the growing numbers of the English Defence League (EDL) indicate that there is growing resentment against Muslims, noted western scholars openly decry the Muslim world as medieval. There is serious talk about the immigration from Muslim countries and how Islam needs to be reformed.

However, opinions are opinions. facts are facts!

# It is a fact that former Muslims live under the threat of death for being apostates.
# It is a fact that critics of Islam are met with death threats which warrant protection.
# It is a fact that honour killings are a serious problem.

I could go on and on, but need I list violence from Muslims which has reached the newspapers and TV of people up and down this land? there is no need for any sort of PR exercise, what is needed is a serious and open discussion over these issues. Simply ignoring these issues is fueling anti Islamic groups such as the EDL.

Your facts don't support your conclusions - actions of Muslims (who have been living in secular nationalistic states over the last century!) do not prove or disprove Islam is violent.

You wrote:

The difference between then and now is that Muslims are no longer an unseen bogeyman - the elite cannot make up total lies and expect them to go unchallenged.

A major difference being many Muslims will justify whatever the elite do - just so they don't have to return to their third world countries from whence their ancestors came... economic interests have a major impact on how people think - Marx made that interesting observation when he argued economic modes determine social structure and attitudes!

You wrote:

Britons in the majority of the UK will have had atleast a cursory contact with some Muslims and that should have a far stronger impact than what someone else said.

Most Brits have no contact with Muslims - many who emrace Islam do so from books (shock, horror for those who thought books should be burned!) - Muslims are busy grabbing whatever they can in a frenzy of materialism than to be worried about conveying anything to society.

You wrote:

And the attempt by Anjum Choudhrary's crew to protest at Wooton Basset hit a lot of sensibilities - even though I think him and his crew were well within their rights to actually do such a thing.

Exposed an interesting contradiction in society - Rushdie can legally hurt sensibilities of millions of Muslims, but Mr Chaudrey et al cannot do the same to non-Muslims... Democracy for you!

//There is indeed violence in Islams history! //

Read secularism's - you'll find it full of nothing but violence!

Just have a look at over a million foetuses are slaughtered every year in the US alone - what crime have these children committed?

Honor killings are looked at in the Secularised Muslim world where women may or may not have committed a sin, however the light should be shone on these honor killings where the child has definitely not done anything!

Anonymous1 wrote:

Your facts don't support your conclusions - actions of Muslims (who have been living in secular nationalistic states over the last century!) do not prove or disprove Islam is violent.

Given that the title of this thread is: Do you think Islam can be regarded as violent? And that I am writing about perceptions held by many people (Not just myself), my conclusions are sound.

Islam can be regarded as violent, as can all of the major religions as it is prescribed and given legitamacy within the holy texts. Does the Qur'an allow for killing of people? Yes, Does the bible? Yes! And so on.

The problem with Islam is that many Muslims take the Qur'an as the un-altered word of God and cannot be questioned, therefore the verse of the sword is used by plenty of people to justify killings on a mass scale.

Vocalist wrote:

The problem with Islam is that many Muslims take the Qur'an as the un-altered word of God and cannot be questioned, therefore the verse of the sword is used by plenty of people to justify killings on a mass scale.

I think that almost all Muslims take the Qur'an as the unaltered word of God.

However, the vast majority of Muslims haven't studied classical Arabic so rely on translations or interpretations (even in Arabic speaking countries the colloquial Arabic is very different.

Personally, from all that I have learned about Islam, I wouldn't say that Islam is violent. It isn't passive, but it isn't violent either. Some Muslims ARE violent (and some of them use religion as their motivation for violence).

But Islam doesn't have a bloody history in comparison to Christianity or Communism. Traditional European accounts of history are being challenged as new evidence is bought to light.

the "verse of the sword" is immediately followed by rules and restrictions, so you better hope that people listen to them instead ignoring them.

I think many of the problems arise when people try to get creative and try to get around the restrictions. Which is the opposite to what non Muslims expect (I think many people base their opinioon on christianity and then reapply the same logic and assumptions to Islam).

Vocalist wrote:

Anonymous1 wrote:

Your facts don't support your conclusions - actions of Muslims (who have been living in secular nationalistic states over the last century!) do not prove or disprove Islam is violent.

Given that the title of this thread is: Do you think Islam can be regarded as violent? And that I am writing about perceptions held by many people (Not just myself), my conclusions are sound.

They are not sound as they violate the "necessarily" condition that conclusions require from premises. Just because you write an argument, its conclusions are not sound.

Vocalist wrote:

Islam can be regarded as violent, as can all of the major religions as it is prescribed and given legitamacy within the holy texts. Does the Qur'an allow for killing of people? Yes, Does the bible? Yes! And so on.

All systems of belief can be regarded as violent - secular democracy the worst - just look at the brutality in nuking civilians in Japan!

Vocalist wrote:

The problem with Islam is that many Muslims take the Qur'an as the un-altered word of God and cannot be questioned, therefore the verse of the sword is used by plenty of people to justify killings on a mass scale.

Humans being humans can misinterpret anything, including the word of God - however, their conclusions do not necessarily follow from the verses as there is something called sunnah that provides elaboration of the verses and their contexts. Thus the problem is not with Islam, but perverted Muslims - unlike with secular democracy, which has inherent problems with evolving ethics that can justify anything! Theytake freedom as some kind of hallowed truth that lets them do anything to anyone in the world with perverted concepts like the "ends justify the means"! Just look at the sad and disgraceful record of colonialism!

Then again, it does beg the question:

Even if we accept the premise that Islam is Good (and True), if it doesn't make the conduct of Muslims better, what is its use?

Ya'qub wrote:

Then again, it does beg the question:

Even if we accept the premise that Islam is Good (and True), if it doesn't make the conduct of Muslims better, what is its use?

And the answer would be Islam the fact that Islam recognises individual behavior is determined by their own views and social forces created by and regulated by the state.

Thus Islam provides rules and regulations for both - if either are missing, you will find some sort of perverted behaviors... lack of Islam in the political realm as well as lack of Islam being taught to new generations results in the unusual results there.

However secular nationalist ideologies dominating the political realm and the educational systems which people carry can be identified as the general causal source of the problems...

Have another go and this time please try to actually answer the question he posed? (maybe even ponder over what Ya'qub meant by the question...)

and while you are at it, there were specific questions posed to you in other threads. answering them may help people take you more seriously.

You wrote:

Have another go and this time please try to actually answer the question he posed? (maybe even ponder over what Ya'qub meant by the question...)

and while you are at it, there were specific questions posed to you in other threads. answering them may help people take you more seriously.

Is that advice to yourself or is it a double standard that has surfaced?

ok, dont then. suit yourself.