"Med" wrote:

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

Med, this is not an attack on you- you know we dont agree on anything...these are just my thoughts, dont take it persoanlly please.

You are entitled to your views. Yes I agree that the ulama should be widely read, they should knw abt secular subjects, they should be aware of how modern economics work, what shaped british society, what shaped indian society, where politicla theories come from. I dont have issue with ulama knowing secular knowledge, but in my view there is a time and place for everything.

Alhamdulillah I know quite a few ulama who graduated from darul uloom at age 19/20, then went to uni and hold degrees from there aswell.

Ed, I dont really wanna get into a debate but in my view the ulama of deoband have not fallen into anytrap.

It should be noted that ulama of deoband are active in many fields, and funnily enough ulama of deoband are accused of being too rigid and strict because they insist on islamic attire, on islamic appearance, on giving ruling on every aspect of private and public life so how they are seen as seperating deen from the world is not in my understanding.

Sipah e Sahabah - working in defence of Sahabah Karaam
Khatm e Nubuwwah - working in defence of finality of Prophethood
JUI - working in politics in pak
Jaysh e Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam - working in defence of oppressed muslims of kashmir
Tablighi Jama'ah - working in dawat o tableegh
Major Darul Uloom in indo-pak - working in the field of teaching and disseminating knowledge
Ar Rasheed trust - working in charity
the list goes on.

Ulama of deoband are involved in:

defence of Khatm e Nubuwwah
defence of Sahabah
working for political islam
defence of oppressed
disseminating knwoledge
dawat o tableegh.

How they are splitting the religion from the secular is beyond me.

i didnt want to turn this in to a deoband thing.
simple question: which madrassah do you know that teaches the points i mentioned in my earlier post?
and why dont they teach the modern, secular, technological, scientific fields in the madrassahs..that is what i meant by dividing Islam in to religious/traditional/secular etc.

the points/ organisations you mentioned are basically in indo-pak, only TJ in Uk which stays away from politics, does not teach the stuff i mentioned above in their madrassahs, are sectarian whether you agree with this or not, have a traditional...and to a certain extent old fashioned (which i would say backward to a certain extent) view/understanding of the deen.

if their madrassahs taught what i mentioned...they wouldnt be like this.
this applies to brelwi, and other sects aswell...

k.

May ALLAH forgive us. ameen

Good reply Med

'Ed your posting style is too confrontational. It forces a confrontation when none is needed.

Your post:

Quote:

Not Dissing Deobandi's, but

Deobandi's do this wrong.
And deobandis do this wrong.
Deobandi's should do this.
Deobandi'es are not doing this.

PS same applies to other sects

When it should be:

Quote:

Not Dissing Deobandi's, but

Some Ulema do this wrong.
And the madaris do this wrong.
The Madaris should do this.
The Madaris have not learnt and are not doing this.

Same message, less confrontation.

My view: you should be taught essential subjects in a madrassa aswell. Such as english (and any other relevant language), math, science.

"angel" wrote:

I personally think studying abroad is much better, although it cud be hard for some girls as long as you are in good care then it is fine, i would love to study in Pak i.e Minhaj-ul-Quran or in Syria.

All in all what is the point of single sex schools?

I agree with you. My dream is also to study in one of those two places you stated. Maybe one day inshallah...

Point of single sex school is to reduce intermixing/dating etc

Most of the time, the objective is achieved but sometimes it isn’t…

Personally I feel that it depends on the individual.

If one wants to date/free mix/mess about etc He/she would do that regardless of whatever school he/she is placed in.

Assalamu Alaikum,

I can understand why you say madrassas should be kept soley for the study of religious subjects and not secular ones. Because these courses can be very intensive, demanding, and therefore require 110% dedication.

But then we have to be realistic. Everyone needs to earn a living aswell. A lot of these madrassas turn out scholars, who often get paid very little. Yes Allah rewards them more than any employer could. But Allah doesn't drop food into the birds nest. Every bird has to fly out and forage for food. In the same way ppl need to go out to work to support their families, and pay the bills. Since the ulemas salaries don't cover these costs what do you suggest?

Do they have to make a choice between religious education or secular education? Can't they get a balance of both?

Also the acquisition of knowledge in Islam is rewarded by Allah. Obviously religious knowledge is in a league of it's own, and the rewards unimaginable

But have we forgotten that acquiring knowledge in non Islamic subjects is something that Allah is pleased with aswell, and rewards? If our intentions are to put the knowlege into good use how can it be bad? If all muslim kids were put into madrassa to learn only about their deen and nothing else how would we manage society?

I think the Islamic way is a balanced view which allows for both. The golden age of Islamic civilisation has produced the greatest scientists, mathematicians, astronomers, doctors etc. These ppl had the best Islamic institutions,universities, hospitals etc, and still managed to turn out ulema the likes of which we rarely produce these days. Many ulema juggled teaching deen and working.

If muslims want to continue this tradition they need to educate their kids in both Islam and secular subjects. Muslims who desire a muslim state would never be able to function if all they produced were scholars. Where would they get medical staff from? Where would they get teachers? Who would run the retail markets? Engineers, accountants, etc? We need muslims in all sectors.

just what i was thinkin

Med's ideas are great, but you gotta take into consideration what Ed and Yash said

all knowledge is vital

obviously you can do without some of the stupid subjects, but you can ignore the sciences and the maths - after all, thats what the Muslims throught history have been famuos for and its somat we can pride ourselves upon and use for aspiration

we need to bring back the days when the muslims were bringing advances in technology, sciences, theology etc

"Darth V-Hayder" wrote:

just what i was thinkin

Med's ideas are great, but you gotta take into consideration what Ed and Yash said

all knowledge is vital

obviously you can do without some of the stupid subjects, but you can ignore the sciences and the maths - after all, thats what the Muslims throught history have been famuos for and its somat we can pride ourselves upon and use for aspiration

we need to bring back the days when the muslims were bringing advances in technology, sciences, theology etc

agreed. Muslims should be masters in all fields.

Now the point raised by Muhtarama that ulama are not paid much, I have heard from my Teachers that it is a salient feature of the people of knowledge that they posses very little in material terms, I have been told that if you wish to be a true scholar then u have to be prepared for hunger because it is ALLAH's sunnah that the people of deen dont get dunya. I think Mawlana Ibraheem ibn Adam sahib also mentions something similar, viz that it is a fact that the people of knowledge are given little wealth.

Also in some narrations it is said that Ammi Aisha made dua that the true people of knowledge be kept on just enough to sustain themselves in this world, the ulama have explained that through this the true ulama are kept free from arrogance and pride as they have to engage with the common people.

So ALTHOUGH I fully understand the points raised, lol I am the point raised, doing dentistry and inshaALLAH gonna be alim e deen aswell, but I say without a shadow of a doubt that the alim who spends his whole life eating daal and roti but spends it teaching in a madrassah is infinitely better than an alim who lives in a big house, eats gud food , and checks out peoples teeth.

LOL

Yeah but med lets be realistic even those respectable ulema who live very modest lives have bills to pay. I'm sure they have sources of income. They must do other jobs or raise revenues in some way or other.
If we have ways of providing for our family but are neglecting them on purpose we will be held accountable by Allah. Feeding, clothing and providing for our loved one is also an act of worship.

Take the example of our prophet he spent his entire life teaching and exemplifying the deen to those around him, but he still made sure his family were provided for. No they weren't materially rich but you understand what I mean.

If we have the means not to live in abstract poverty then we should use those means. Ppl in third wold countries would love to have such opportunities to earn a decent income. They don't want to be rich just enough to get by. That's exactly what I'm saying we need enough to get by not live like the Beckhams.

I'll be frank I'm by no standards poor, but we are experiencing major money problems. We have no loans but my husbands income is just not enough. We have nothing left over for extra things we may need, and I don't mean luxuries.

Now my husband does an Alim course and he works. I've not told him to quit his Alim course and I would never dream of it. But if he quit work right now I'd say he's mad. I would be forced to go work myself. Do you see the dilemma? Ppl face this all the time. I consider myself lucky. I have food, clothing, a roof over my head, internet access only because i don't go out much, but this might have to be sold soon. I'm not poor but I am struggling. When I see others every weekend shopping till they drop makes me upset yeah. Because I can't even afford to get a tiny thing i like. I wouldn't dare ask my husband because I know he feels bad as it is. It's not like he can get things for himself either.

Now if my husband had studied up to a higher level then he may have had a better paid job today, even he says this. I don't think you'll understand until you have a wife to look after and kids to boot.

BTW med you're at University yourself so how can you advocate that we should just concentrate on a deeni education or just a secular one and not both???

Come on ladz if u askin me then DEFINITELY MIXED.

"yashmaki" wrote:

BTW med you're at University yourself so how can you advocate that we should just concentrate on a deeni education or just a secular one and not both???

I dont think I explained properly. I have infact stated previously the two are NOT mutually exclusive. What I am saying is that the madrassah should be kept solely as the place to impart religious knowledge, after wards they may go for secular knowledge.

Yes family has a right and ulama have right to do other work aswell, but there are ulama who survive with their families on themeagre earnings from the madrassah authorities.

I am at uni. I advocate that if you want to study deen, then IDEALLY it should be done in madrassah full time. There is obviously no sin in doing both together, but the madrassah must be kept as they are. I am studying both secular and religious, but in my mind there is no doubt that I would understand my lessons, and have a greter grasp of what is taught if I went FT to madrassah. It is due to family constraints that I have to go uni. Its all good, but the ideal is for madrassah to be kept as they are. I dont see a problem here. If they want to get a uni degree then go for it, but ideally and I say IDEALLY they should have spent years exclusively to religious knowledge, it makes for more understanding and action on what is taught.

"Med" wrote:

"Darth V-Hayder" wrote:

just what i was thinkin

Med's ideas are great, but you gotta take into consideration what Ed and Yash said

all knowledge is vital

obviously you can do without some of the stupid subjects, but you can ignore the sciences and the maths - after all, thats what the Muslims throught history have been famuos for and its somat we can pride ourselves upon and use for aspiration

we need to bring back the days when the muslims were bringing advances in technology, sciences, theology etc

agreed. Muslims should be masters in all fields.

Now the point raised by Muhtarama that ulama are not paid much, I have heard from my Teachers that it is a salient feature of the people of knowledge that they posses very little in material terms, I have been told that if you wish to be a true scholar then u have to be prepared for hunger because it is ALLAH's sunnah that the people of deen dont get dunya. I think Mawlana Ibraheem ibn Adam sahib also mentions something similar, viz that it is a fact that the people of knowledge are given little wealth.

Also in some narrations it is said that Ammi Aisha made dua that the true people of knowledge be kept on just enough to sustain themselves in this world, the ulama have explained that through this the true ulama are kept free from arrogance and pride as they have to engage with the common people.

So ALTHOUGH I fully understand the points raised, lol I am the point raised, doing dentistry and inshaALLAH gonna be alim e deen aswell, but I say without a shadow of a doubt that the alim who spends his whole life eating daal and roti but spends it teaching in a madrassah is infinitely better than an alim who lives in a big house, eats gud food , and checks out peoples teeth.

LOL

why should ulema be on low pay
why should they have to struggle to support themselves an dtheir families
we do 3 years at uni an dexpect 15-20, 000 pounds a year. An alim spends 10 years and gets £150 a week- that is soooo sad. Only then you see some ulema ending up doing dodgy stuff just to make ends meet, thats why they charge for every islamic service...so they can put food on the table.
But if a scholar had religious and secular education, he can be an alim and a proffessional and get a very good pay, so he can concentrate wholeheartedly on Deen and dawah.
I know a shaykh who is part of The Revival Magazine, he has done full alim course in India, Uk, jordan and he is a BT manager here and in his spare time does talks, courses, study circles, writes articles, attends ramadan radio shows etc fisabillillah. He gets a good pay from his job so he doesnt need to charge for any talks etc and is fully motivated and committed to dawah.
This idea that ulema should have poor pay, struggle is wrong and damaging. You can have a good paid job and still live your life completely according to the sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

Why do you think youngsters dont really look up to ulema, or dont want to be ulema when they see their lifestyles, their pay, their treatment....it puts them off. This idea of living off daal and roti for ulema is wrong, baseless, misguiding and not the message we should be giving....