IVF: Right or Wrong?

Published by s.b.f on 13 February, 2009 - 01:50
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Submitted by s.b.f on 13 February, 2009 - 23:09

Noor wrote:
islam says ivf is allowed.

yep, I was just reading this:

IVF is permissible in Islam only on condition that both sperm and egg involved in the process originate from a man and a woman who are married to each other. To introduce an egg or sperm from a third person to the equation is akin to sharing the marriage bed with someone else. It is therefore considered no different from zina (adultery) in Islam. A child born through such a procedure is born of zina in Islam.

Since it is undoubtedly reprehensible and utterly sinful, no Muslim should ever entertain such a possibility for conceiving a child. A Muslim should accept what Allah has chosen for him or her. To accept Allah as a Sovereign Lord and Creator means to believe in His will and ultimate wisdom. Allah says: (To Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He creates whatever He wills. He grants daughters to whom He wills, and sons to whom He wills; or He gives both sons and daughters to whom He wills and makes barren whom He wills. Indeed He is Knowing, Able) (Ash-Shura 42: 49-50).

So its only permissable inside the frameworks of a marriage in Islam.

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Submitted by s.b.f on 14 February, 2009 - 16:43

You wrote:

s.b.f wrote:
yes, a man may want a baby and raise her/him all on his own. But he would need a surrogate mother.

which he can then discard after the birth?

Why would he want to do that?

On the topic of surrogacy:

Surrogate motherhood is often euphemistically referred to as “hiring a womb.” The procedure involves using the service of another woman to serve as a carrier for the fertilized ovum of a couple. The woman makes herself available to inject the fertilized ovum into her own womb and then carries the child to its full term on behalf of the other couple. It is often done in lieu of a specified remuneration or free of charge. People resort to this procedure either because a married woman who desires to have a child has problems in carrying her child to its full term or because of her desire to simply forgo the “trouble” of conception and labor.

According to the rules of Shari`ah, surrogate motherhood as described above is not allowed, since it involves introducing the sperm of a male into the uterus of a woman to whom he is not married and, thus, it clearly falls under the specific category of transgressing the bounds of Allah as stated in the Qur’an: (Those who guard their private parts except from their spouses…) (Al-Mu’minun: 5). “Whosoever goes beyond that are indeed transgressors” (Al-Mu’minun 23: 7).

By introducing a third party into the family equation, this procedure throws into confusion the issue of the identity of the child. In Islam, every child has a right to a definite parentage, namely, that of a father and mother. In the case of surrogate motherhood, the question arises as to the identity of the real mother of the child thus conceived. Is she the genetic mother who provides the egg from which the child is born, or is she the woman whose womb serves as a carrier for the child? Such confusion is bound to affect the child emotionally as he will be torn between two mothers. Further, it may also lead to legal fights over the parentage of the child, as happened in the United States in the case of a child thus conceived in 1987.

Finally, the entire procedure amounts to dehumanizing the process of human procreation by reducing womb down to the level of a commodity that can be bought or rented for service. Ultimately, such a process, yet again, violates the dignity and honor that Allah Almighty has bestowed on man and woman.

Isn't it making the identity of the child abit over the top: its really simple: the child's mother is the one who provided the egg cell. the genes make the child. Not the carrier. If there was any issues make sure there is a distance between the child and the surrogate mother.

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Submitted by You on 14 February, 2009 - 16:46

s.b.f wrote:
You wrote:

s.b.f wrote:
yes, a man may want a baby and raise her/him all on his own. But he would need a surrogate mother.

which he can then discard after the birth?

Why would he want to do that?

Why would the woman want to do that pre-birth?

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 14 February, 2009 - 17:12

You wrote:

Why would the woman want to do that pre-birth?

Have you moved onto the topic of abortion?

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Submitted by You on 14 February, 2009 - 17:22

No. you asked why why would a man use a surrogate woman and then get rid of her after the birth of the baby.

I replied with another similar question - why would a woman use a man as a donor for the baby and then get rid of him (the "father") even earlier?

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 14 February, 2009 - 17:31

Makes loads more sense.

Its not the same as "getting rid of"

The surrogate mother or the man providing the sperm volunteer to do so.

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Submitted by Hajjar on 14 February, 2009 - 20:43

Assalamu Alaikum,

I'm going to talk from what I believe is a Islamic view point, because that's how I am trying to live my life out, and it would be in line with this forum too.
Like it has already been said IVF is permitted but there are rules.

It should go without saying a woman should be married, otherwise it would be impermissible. So why did Sbf I think suggest a single woman may want children, but doesn't want to get married. Single women forfeit their right to have children as do homosexuals, because biologically it takes a man and a woman to produce a baby. It's not me being discriminatory blame nature. Also it's logical that if a baby is raised by 2 parents rather than one, female and male hopefully he/she will have good masculine and female role models, and a greater level of support through life, compared with one parent.

The case with Nadya Suleman sounds really strange. Her own mother has criticized her actions. Regardless of her personal reasons for having children on face value it seems she has been extremely selfish. She is a single woman, so I assume she went to a sperm bank. This goes against Islam, because apart from being out of wedlock, every child deserves to know who their parent is, these children won't know.

In case you didn't already know she has 6 other children, and has been unemployed long term. (Makes me wonder how she paid for IVF, state handout?)She is living on state handouts, and they are trivial amounts compared with UK benefits. Being in this position how was she selfless and thinking only of the children by conceiving 8 more? She has a website which is simply used to tout for donations. Do you think she is deserving of charity more than children born in the third world, is she a charity case?

I'm no doctor but I think she has psychological issues that need to be looked into. I don't think the children should be taken away from her, but she clearly has this need to have hoards of children without thinking about how she will maintain them. Yes Allah maintains them, but since she has no husband she should be providing for them. I've nothing against women who want large families, just as long as they are responsible and can maintain them. I myself may have lots of children insha'Allah but I have my husband to look after them. If something were to happen i would go out and graft. Benefit system is not supposed to be a long term solution is it? How long will they last in the USA on handouts? Homelessness is a huge issue in USA, something the Bush government didn't like to speak about.

I don't think there is anything wrong with IVF, but it isn't natural, docs tweak around with the natural process. I mean it's not natural to have more than 3 babies in one go is it, very rare.I have a friend who went through it, without success. The whole experience is painful, and emotionally draining. She has had 2 free treatments on government. If she wants further she will have to dig a couple of grand out of her pocket, with no guarantee the procedure will work. I really feel bad even talking about my children when i realise how badly she wants children of her own. If Nadya suleman did conceive on state handouts new rules should come into force. Because there are women waiting in a line to have a chance at conceiving one child with their partner, and there she was with 6 wanting more. She has a right to have more but not on the benefit system.

As for surrogacy it was stated why is there any confusion over who the mother is, when it's clear the biological mother is the one who provided the egg? But in Islam the mother can also be the woman who carried the baby for near a year in her womb. The woman who actually gave birth to the baby. The woman whose body nurtured that baby to full term. It was her umbilical chord attached to the baby not the woman who gave the egg. All this is important, and would cause confusion from an Islamic point of view.If you are just looking at things scientifically then you won't see a problem, but science goes against religious views because it just looks at cause and effect, science does not bring God into the equation, God does not exist in this subject.

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“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]

Submitted by Noor on 14 February, 2009 - 20:36

why do you people write so much?! i cant read all that!

Submitted by Hajjar on 14 February, 2009 - 20:44

because I don't come here very often, and im a motor mouth lol it's not much come on you can read that.

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“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]

Submitted by Noor on 14 February, 2009 - 20:48

im getting dizzy lookin at it!

Submitted by Hajjar on 14 February, 2009 - 20:47

it just looks long imagine its one page of a glossy magazine you'll get through it lol

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“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]

Submitted by sbf (not verified) on 14 February, 2009 - 20:56

Noor wrote:
im getting dizzy lookin at it!

Lol

Wink

Submitted by s.b.f on 14 February, 2009 - 21:19

Hajjar wrote:

The case with Nadya Suleman sounds really strange. Her own mother has criticized her actions. Regardless of her personal reasons for having children on face value it seems she has been extremely selfish. She is a single woman, so I assume she went to a sperm bank. This goes against Islam, because apart from being out of wedlock, every child deserves to know who their parent is, these children won't know.

The donor of the sperm is apparently a close friend of Nadia's.

Hajjar wrote:

In case you didn't already know she has 6 other children, and has been unemployed long term. (Makes me wonder how she paid for IVF, state handout?)She is living on state handouts, and they are trivial amounts compared with UK benefits. Being in this position how was she selfless and thinking only of the children by conceiving 8 more? She has a website which is simply used to tout for donations. Do you think she is deserving of charity more than children born in the third world, is she a charity case?

When I was talking about the mother thinking about her children first, I was not referring to Nadia Suleman. I thought her case was strange. Yes, she was an only child and wanted lots of children to compensate for the situation she was throughout her life, but having fourteen children all under the age of ten (i think) is too much to handle. And, it also means neglect of some of the children. However much she claims that she will love them equally, I don't think that she will be able to give each one an equal treatment.
I also don't think she is a charity case. I don't know why she should be given sympathy. It was a choice she chose and thought about I think. Maybe as "You" said, she has mentality issues. But she is only ONE case. And like I said before, there are many success stories.

Hajjar wrote:

As for surrogacy it was stated why is there any confusion over who the mother is, when it's clear the biological mother is the one who provided the egg? But in Islam the mother can also be the woman who carried the baby for near a year in her womb. The woman who actually gave birth to the baby. The woman whose body nurtured that baby to full term. It was her umbilical chord attached to the baby not the woman who gave the egg. All this is important, and would cause confusion from an Islamic point of view.If you are just looking at things scientifically then you won't see a problem, but science goes against religious views because it just looks at cause and effect, science does not bring God into the equation, God does not exist in this subject.

I like how you've bought religion into this. Of course God, is in the whole situation. It has to be like that. Looking at things scientifically means you soon forget about the person and their feelings which i think sometimes matter more than the situation at hold.
I think what you said about who the mother is, whether it is the one who provided the egg cell or the one who nurtured the fetus until it has grown in the nine months is a good argument. But maybe not just from the Islamic point of view. The person who nurtures the baby is more likely to have an emotionally attachment to the baby; with the whole process of the nine months. And because this is a religious point of view we have to accept and move on.

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Submitted by s.b.f on 14 February, 2009 - 21:26

. The Prophet's guidance further inspired Muslims to search and discover effective medicines, when he said, in a more complete narration of the hadith:

Allah has never created a disease but created its treatment, that is known by some people and unknown to others, except death. (At-Tabarani)

( )

Would you see infertility as a disease?

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Submitted by You on 14 February, 2009 - 23:43

Going to the particular case of Nadia Suleman, there is more to consider too:

"The road ahead is made even harder as one of her older children is autistic while two others have learning difficulties."

That is from the original 6 before her new 8.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by sbf (not verified) on 15 February, 2009 - 02:10

You wrote:
Going to the particular case of Nadia Suleman, there is more to consider too:

"The road ahead is made even harder as one of her older children is autistic while two others have learning difficulties."

That is from the original 6 before her new 8.

woah, theres lots of questions related to that then. Firstly this questions the selfish thing. So now that she is satisfied with her wanting lots of kids,how does she intend to cater for all their needs?

She is maybe not the best of examples for IVF.

Submitted by You on 15 February, 2009 - 02:35

sbf wrote:
She is maybe not the best of examples for IVF.

You got it all in one.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 15 February, 2009 - 13:17

You wrote:
sbf wrote:
She is maybe not the best of examples for IVF.

You got it all in one.

That's not the point.
I was clear from the start that she seemed incapable of looking after all those kids.

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Submitted by You on 15 February, 2009 - 13:41

Most of mky posts - especially the earlier ones did not reference her case. I had issues with the whole concept of things.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 15 February, 2009 - 14:13

You wrote:
Most of mky posts - especially the earlier ones did not reference her case. I had issues with the whole concept of things.

Even without the religious look on it?

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Submitted by You on 15 February, 2009 - 14:30

yes (but that "religious view" is also important and covers many humane aspects and may not always be a separate thing - in Islam religion is a part of life).

I had purposefully ignore that article and did not relise that she was single and all that other stuff 'til much later.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 15 February, 2009 - 14:44

You wrote:
yes (but that "religious view" is also important and covers many humane aspects and may not always be a separate thing - in Islam religion is a part of life).

Thanks, Im glad you and Hajjar have bought up the religious side to this. Something, I ignored and actually forgot the aspect of when talking about IVF.
I cant remember properly, but is it true that during pregnancy, an angel is composing the parts of the fetus to a baby in the womb? Because if that is the case, then during IVF, when a human is fertilizing the egg and the sperm cell-surely that is wrong full stop?

You wrote:

I had purposefully ignore that article and did not relise that she was single and all that other stuff 'til much later.

purposefully.

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Submitted by Imaani on 17 February, 2009 - 19:42

This thread is really interesting and has raised a lot of issues which previoulsy I had not thought so deep about.

I don’t know much about IVF but know it takes time, a lot of money and many many go’s which is really stressful for the couples involved. I do wonder whether adoption would be a much easier option.

I have a very close friend who struggled to conceive a second child who I don’t think would have gone down the route of IVF because to her it possibly felt trying too hard. And she accepted that maybe it just wasn’t to be. I know her and her husband did consider adoption though. She was given some medication which I think altered her monthly cycle or something, making it easier for her to conceive and Alhamdulillah after a few months she did. And then before she knew it she was (naturally) expecting again Alhamdulillah. Just that though was an extremely stressful time for them, never mind going through the process of IVF which can take years.

I really do think that if you’re not meant to have any biological kids for whatever reasons, like gene abnormailities or whatever, then even through IVF it will not happen. And there are loads of people who have gone through IVF having spent their life savings and remortgaged their house and still not been successful. And I do believe that everything happens for a reason.

I don't think as many people, especially Pakistani's, consider adoption due to the stigma that exists in society. I seriously think that if it wasn’t there, more people would adopt. It’s always hard to go against the crowd but like most stigma’s this really does need to end.

I do believe that some people just won’t feel an emotional attachment to a child that isn’t their own... and in that case it is best for the child that such people don’t adopt.

I completely disagree with homosexual women/single women being allowed to use IVF to conceive. This discussion has though made me wonder something I hadn’t really deeply thought of before - whether I think a single woman/man should be able to adopt either... an interesting argument was raised - would I think it normal for a single man to want to adopt and raise kids on his own? – no i wouldn’t think it normal. Using the same logic then, should it be any different for a single woman wanting to adopt? I don’t think so. The reasons I think it is not ideal for a man, do stand with a woman too. I think that if a person doesn’t recognise that things may be potentially more difficult raising a child on their own then I do think that is being extremely naive and thus not putting the childs welfare first.

As for the case of Nadia Suleyman (as reported in the press), I think she has a lot of issues. She is a perfect example of how such a medical procedure can be abused.

Submitted by You on 17 February, 2009 - 19:56

Imaani wrote:
This discussion has though made me wonder something I hadn’t really deeply thought of before - whether I think a single woman/man should be able to adopt either... an interesting argument was raised - would I think it normal for a single man to want to adopt and raise kids on his own? – no i wouldn’t think it normal. Using the same logic then, should it be any different for a single woman wanting to adopt? I don’t think so. The reasons I think it is not ideal for a man, do stand with a woman too. I think that if a person doesn’t recognise that things may be potentially more difficult raising a child on their own then I do think that is being extremely naive and thus not putting the childs welfare first.

The case of adoption is different as the child would already becoming from a disadvantaged background.

Should it be done? no idea, but its not the same as IVF through a single person where the kids would purposefully be brought into a potentially disadvantaged situation.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by Imaani on 17 February, 2009 - 20:09

"You" wrote:
The case of adoption is different as the child would already becoming from a disadvantaged background.

Yeah, as in one parent is better than none. That in itself is kinda sad.

But it's interesting I think how many people would look down at a male wanting to adopt on his own, yet in this society anyway it is much more acceptable for a woman to do so. Some may argue motherhood is a natural urge a female will have but I wonder if there is anything to really back that up. I could understand a male thinking that is unfair.

"You" wrote:
Should it be done? no idea, but its not the same as IVF through a single person where the kids would purposefully be brought into a potentially disadvantaged situation.

What gets to be more about that though is the fact that it can't really be done with just a female (for a (good) reason one is to assume), so it is making allowances to give somebody something which really they naturally are not entitled to experience. (That wording sounds harsh.) ...At the potential disadvantage of an innocent life.

Submitted by You on 17 February, 2009 - 20:18

There is a campaign group called "fathers for justice" who, when not prancing about as Batman and Robin climbing tall buildings and almost getting shot by anti terrorist police does have some sort of a point.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by Imaani on 17 February, 2009 - 20:37

Yes, I think they do too. I once watched a documentary about them and you really did feel for them. And were left thinking that yes they were treated unfairly. Although each case should be looked at individually, it is a good thing to raise and bring to people's attention. And yes some of their campaigns in the past were strange and did lose them some credibilty for a while.

Submitted by You on 24 February, 2009 - 00:45

Going back to the case of MS Suleman:

Octuplet 'father' wants DNA tests

A former partner of the US woman who gave birth to octuplets in Los Angeles last month has said he could be their father, and that of their six siblings.

Denis Beaudoin told ABC News that he had donated sperm to his former girlfriend Nadya Suleman three times.

He has requested DNA paternity testing but said he would help Ms Suleman raise the children whatever the results.

ABC said Ms Suleman had denied Mr Beaudoin was the father but had agreed to paternity tests being carried out.

Mr Beaudoin told ABC's Good Morning America that Ms Suleman had asked him to donate sperm as she had ovarian cancer and was unable to have children.

He said he thought her request was "out of the ordinary" but that he had agreed as he "cared about her so much".

Mr Beaudoin said he was "shocked and surprised" when he heard that Ms Suleman had given birth on 26 January and that he did not believe her denials that he was the father...

Read more @

It seems her quest to have the children stay fatherless may be in vain.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by s.b.f on 24 February, 2009 - 16:52

Did it not say in the original article about her that a friend/someone she knew had donated the sperms?

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