Salam

Gaza is controlled by Hamas.

They often terrorise Israelis by firing rockets into towns.

Israeli leaders has often vowed to end Hamas's rule in Gaza. So far they have no succeeded. And I dont see them succeeding this time either.

However, because Israel tends to overdo things, such as kill a lot of innocent people, starve the population and so on, I dont think military action against Hamas would achieve anything positive. In fact, it is likely to raise Hamas status in the region.

World's sympathy is simply not with the Israelis.

Omrow

Ofcourse they have choice.

The recent ceasefire between Hamas and Israel ended because it was felt that Israel did not live up to its side of the bargain (ease the blockade of essential goods).

All they had to do was that and things would have been much calmer.

Bombing the most crowded place on earth is not exactly something to be taken lightly.

Israel has every choice available to it.

It's the people living in Gaza who are desperate. For the past 2 years Israel has been preventing aid, medical supplies, fuel and other supplies from reaching the Gaza Strip.

As supplies are being further withheld, most mills have shut down because they have little or no grain. People who have long been deprived of many food items now cannot even find bread at times.

Reserves of food have long been depleted and the meagre quantities allowed into Gaza are not even enough to meet the immediate needs. Families never know if they will have food for their children the following day.

When people do have food, they generally have no cooking gas or electricity with which to cook it. Last week, less than 10 per cent of the weekly requirement of cooking gas was allowed into Gaza.

Shortages of fuel, electricity and spare parts are causing water and sanitation infrastructure and other crucial services to deteriorate a bit more every day. Eighty per cent of the wells are now only functioning at reduced capacity and water supply is only available for a few hours every few days.

At times when water is available, there is no electricity or fuel to pump it into apartment buildings. Shortages of chlorine increase the risk of waterborne diseases.

Routine blackouts disrupt every aspect of life for everyone. Hospitals are struggling to power life-saving machinery and it is ever more difficult to maintain laundry and other essential services.

Even patients in need of medical treatment unavailable in Gaza, are often denied passage out of Gaza. Scores of people have died in the past year when they could have been saved if only they had been allowed to travel.

Amnesty International

This attack by Israel which has killed over 200 Palestinians in Gaza is a response to this:

On Friday, 13 rockets and mortar rounds hit southern Israel, causing no casualties but damaging a house that was unoccupied at the time.

Two Palestinian girls were killed when what was thought to be a stray rocket or mortar round hit their house in the north of the territory.

Telegraph

Who this the upcoming elections have anything to do with this action?

hmmmmmm

Some things never change. Israel kills hundreds and no one in the international community says anything.

Ofcourse the international community reacted. It wished for a peaceful resolution. One where Israeli citizens are free from terror.

I see the logic - Hamas has been bombarding Israel albeit ineffectively. Israel no longer occupies Gaza so the time is judged right (too soon I believe) to blow the puff from this enemy entity, as well as to achieve specific objectives like eliminating enemy weaponry and ops centres. I don't think such a heavy-handed strategy works for Israel because any world support they have is reluctant, people know the script, Israel's firepower is locally supreme and ought to be used most carefully, which begs the question of whether a more proportioned response would be any use, and in any case the government won't be "eye-for-an-eye"ing stuff like the Palestinian textbooks that essentially define every Jew or every Israeli as the enemy for life. So it doesn't work for Israel because it feeds into the Hamas storybook with Israel as villain and because the world inevitably steps in to tie Israel's hands. And I can't approve of a response that will spawn such killing and destruction and that does not meet very useful objectives in the way of arriving at a détente. Hamas is very committed and the ceasefires it calls for when weakened by Israel - with overwhelming global support for anything so peaceable as a ceasefire - are only to be kept until Hamas restores its fighting power. So I don't know what would be a good outcome, and hopefully some strategic planner does. The operation makes sense as a firm response with clear objectives but not knowing how it has been planned and what are these exact objectives makes it impossible to comment to support or condemn it in principle.

A large number is reported dead. My hope is that Israel is avoiding those who do not fight with Hamas and that any such casualties are very few, and that in 2009 miracles come about to bring peace to the region, that people in Gaza live in peace and people in Israel live in peace and neither has cause to threaten or attack the other.

ftr

no probs.

Problem with bombs is that they are never not indiscriminate.

I see no solution to this issue. It's bleak.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7801662.stm

I have not felt anger in quite a while. It makes me shiver.

(or is that the cold?)

Over 280 dead now. Are they 'martyrs' though? Officially? if they are 'innocent civilians' then, by definition, they are not fighting (in the way of Allah (swt) or not). Isn't a 'martyr' (shaheed) ONLY someone who fights in the way of Allah (swt) and dies in the process?

wednesday wrote:

and what if you die in the name of your land/ country/ state?

Then you are a dead nationalist? I don't know.

"Yesterday <a href="http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5801" target="0">DEBKAfile</a>" wrote:

The first objective of a ground force in the coming hours will be to destroy "Lower Gaza," the underground city designed by an Iranian general and spread under most of the enclave's area. This subterranean sanctuary kept the bulk of the Hamas army, 15,000 men, their officers and leaders, out of harm's way during the Israeli air offensive Saturday. Their resistance must be broken before Hamas can be brought to surrender. Until then they will fight on.

IMO that can also be a good thing. It all depends on the actions.

There is a form of Nationalism that is not allowed, but that is only when you support your people when they are in the wrong.

However in war, its not a good thing to die for your beliefs. Its always better to get the other side to die of theirs.

As for the original question, I think I have heard the murder victims are considered Shahid. No idea if it was just my mind or if there is some basis for that.

You wrote:

As for the original question, I think I have heard the murder victims are considered Shahid. No idea if it was just my mind or if there is some basis for that.

Is 'having the same status of Shaheed' the same as being 'considered Shaheed'?

Best to ask a scholar.

A martyr might or might not be an innocent victim. War will kill innocent victims and that is always to be minimised and regretted and a strong reason to use force with caution if at all. Whether those killed, innocent and fighter alike, are considered martyrs depends very much on what they stood for, and then their martyrdom might not interest me. To underline the distinction, several martyrs[sup]1, 2, 3[/sup] today took the lives of many innocent victims, themselves not all martyrs.

Quote:

"The suicide attacker pulled his car outside the polling station, and asked people to push the vehicle, saying that it had broken down," North West Frontier information minister Mian Iftikhar Hussain told the Associated Press.

"His purpose was to gather the maximum people around the car. The moment people started pushing the car, he blew it up."

Quote:

A suicide bomber has hit a government building in eastern Afghanistan, killing 16 people, 14 of them children, local police said.

A doctor at a hospital in Khost said 58 people - many of them children - were hurt in the attack, close to a school.

Quote:

At least 22 people have been killed in a car bomb attack in a Shia district of Baghdad, security officials have said.

Women and children were reportedly among the dead in the blast, near a bus station in the Kadhimiya district. At least 54 others were injured.

Joie de Vivre wrote:

A martyr might or might not be an innocent victim. War will kill innocent victims and that is always to be minimised and regretted and a strong reason to use force with caution if at all. Whether those killed, innocent and fighter alike, are considered martyrs depends very much on what they stood for, and then their martyrdom might not interest me. To underline the distinction, several martyrs[sup]1, 2, 3[/sup] today took the lives of many innocent victims, themselves not all martyrs.

Quote:

"The suicide attacker pulled his car outside the polling station, and asked people to push the vehicle, saying that it had broken down," North West Frontier information minister Mian Iftikhar Hussain told the Associated Press.

"His purpose was to gather the maximum people around the car. The moment people started pushing the car, he blew it up."

[sup]1[/sup]

Quote:

A suicide bomber has hit a government building in eastern Afghanistan, killing 16 people, 14 of them children, local police said.

A doctor at a hospital in Khost said 58 people - many of them children - were hurt in the attack, close to a school.

[sup]2[/sup]

Quote:

At least 22 people have been killed in a car bomb attack in a Shia district of Baghdad, security officials have said.

Women and children were reportedly among the dead in the blast, near a bus station in the Kadhimiya district. At least 54 others were injured.

[sup]3[/sup]

Since when are suicide bombers 'martyrs'? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

There were other casualties in those reports - some of them people who were trying to help a hapless stranger, or people in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ya'qub wrote:

Since when are suicide bombers 'martyrs'? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

That depends who you ask, but they can be said to have died for a cause, whereas innocent victims do not die in the way of a cause of their own choosing. It is a distinction. The reason why it is infinitely preferable not to call suicide bombers martyrs is because it overlooks their indisputable status as mass murderers.

Joie de Vivre wrote:

The reason why it is infinitely preferable not to call suicide bombers martyrs is because it overlooks their indisputable status as mass murderers.

Also, perhaps, the fact that, traditionally, 'martyrs' are killed by the people they are opposing, whereas Suicide Bombers are killed by...err... (the clue is in their title).

wednesday wrote:

But if their intention is to fight for the sake of Allah, then what? Can we judge whether if they are martyrs or can we not judge at all?

I'm not sure. I think their are specific frameworks as to who is and isn't a 'martyr' in an Islamic sense. Some people certainly HAVE been declared 'martyrs'. Dunno if this is correct to do or not.

I suspect not (apart from the people who died when they were fighting alongside the Prophet (saw)).

But it depends at whose hands you die.

and if you are killing enemy soldiers, or innocent civillians who may even be on your own "side"..

You wrote:

But it depends at whose hands you die.

and if you are killing enemy soldiers, or innocent civillians who may even be on your own side..

can you put quotation marks around 'side', please?

Nabi [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] mentioned, ‘There are seven types of people who are considered as Shaheed although they were not killed in the battlefield: a) A person who has lost life in a plague, b) Person who has drowned, c) Person who had suffered from a side pain, e.g. appendix, etc. d) Person who suffered from a stomach ailment, e) Person who was burnt, f) Person who died due to an impact, e.g. wall fell on him, hit by a vehicle, etc. g) Woman who dies due to childbirth. (Abu Dawud)

The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, "Whoever is killed protecting his wealth is a martyr. Whoever is killed protecting his family is a martyr..." (Ahmed and Tirmidhi)

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whoever dies protecting their property is a martyr." [Bukhari and Muslim]

Thanks - Much appreciated.

So what remains is "for queen and country" then? Got any inklings as to which way that goes? Any links, or scholars you can ask?

Gaza massacre over 300 killed - Emergency Protests

LONDON
Monday 29 December 4.00pm – 6.00pm
Protest opposite Israeli Embassy W8 - Kensington High Street. Nearest tube: High Street Kensington. From station turn right.
Protests organised and supported by PSC, Palestine Return Centre (PRC), Palestinian Forum of Britain (PFB), British Muslim Initiative (BMI), Stop the War, Friends of al Aqsa, Muslim Association of Britain (MAB), Respect, Islamic Human Rights Commission, Association of the Palestinian Community in Britain (APC), Jews for Justice for Palestinians (JFJFP), Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods (JBIG), Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD), International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN), Haldane Society

BIRMINGHAM
Monday 29 December, 5.00 pm, outside Zavvi, Waterstones, High Street, Birminham City Centre (near the bull in the Bull Ring Centre)

HALIFAX
Monday 29 December 4-5pm, outside Central Library

YORK
Monday 29 December 12 - 2pm St Sampsons Square, please come for all or part of our vigil

SHEFFIELD
Monday 29 December, 4pm, outside Town Hall

BRADFORD
Monday 29 December 2pm, Centenary Square. We will provide leaflets please bring placards, banners etc or bring with you marker pens and large size paper.

Tuesday 30 Dec
CARDIFF
Tuesday 30 December 12 to 1pm. Nye Bevan Statue, Queen Street

Saturday 3 Jan
PORTSMOUTH
Saturday 3 January 11am, Guildhall Square

Organised by Portsmouth Network for a Just Settlement of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, and Portsmouth Stop the War Coalition

Yes it is.

From http://monotonous.org/2008/12/29/extreme-moderates/:

Tzipi Livni framed the current conflict in Gaza during her address to the Knesset, “The world is divided between peace-loving moderates, and war-mongering extremists”.

On Saturday the moderates carried out a strike that left over 200 dead in less than 5 minutes. The body count is growing, we are past 300 Gazans killed, Saturday and today brought the first two Israeli civilian casualties. The peace-loving moderates vowed not to stop the overwhelming destruction until “the reality on the ground changes”.

Livni continued and said “We expect the world’s support for those who fight the free world’s struggle”. On this point all agree, Gaza is not part of the free world.

Dalia Itzik, the Knesset chairperson said “this is not a time for politics, we must stand behind the army”. Similar statements were heard across the political spectrum from left to right. Besides a Tel-Aviv minority, the only bitter cries of descent are coming from Palestinian-Israelis. The media has been quick to point it out, and the threat of this fifth column.

The pattern is familiar, the Israeli street is proud of the IDF’s potent use of force: The smart bombs, the effective intelligence gathering, and the cool-headed generals. A true Israeli moment. As Gideon Levy wrote “Operation Cast Lead, it will end with a Kleenex”. In a country where corruption and incompetence reign supreme in the halls of government, it’s citizens trust their future in the professional and war-hardened hands of the defense establishment. The IDF had some low-points, but it never stopped being a winning brand. What pride would we have left without it?

I voted for Labor in ‘99, maybe I was foolish. In the last four years I have vowed not to vote for Labor many times, but here is another reason: The few Knesset seats that it will win in the general elections will have been procured with blood.

i think its hamas fault. they are a terrorist group and attack israeli civilians and they stole gaza from the plo who own everything to do with the palestine thing. i hope we muslims get rid of all these terrorists and kill them all in one go because then the world will know how muslims are good people and how we never kill anyone. i dont know why the muslims dont all go and kill the terrorists themselves because we are the ones who suffer more from the attacks. if we killed or jailed up the terrorist extremists and made friends with the people from other religions then everyone would be happy except the terrorists who dont count. then islam would spread everywhere and we would have loads of different muslims.