Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques
Richard Kerbaj
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21239882-601,00.html
SENIOR Muslim leaders have called for the Australian flag to be flown outside the nation's mosques as an expression of the Islamic community's "loyalty" and commitment to this country.
Muslim clerics yesterday urged Australia's 300,000 Muslims to back the idea as a symbol of "integration" and pride.
The former chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim reference group, Ameer Ali, pushed the Australian Muslim community yesterday to adopt the flag.
"Even in Muslim countries in the mosque they fly the national flag ... (such as) in Pakistan. If that can be done in a Muslim country why not in Australia?" Dr Ali said.
He said Muslims opposed to the flag being displayed outside mosques were religiously narrow-minded. "I think they are looking at it from a very narrow, religious angle," he said.
Dr Ali said he spearheaded the initiative of displaying the flag outside Muslim schools owned by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils when he ran that organisation in 2002.
He also ensured that students sang the national anthem during special functions.
"We are Australian Muslims," he said. "And it (the flag) is a symbol of our national identity."
One of Australia's most respected female Muslim leaders, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said displaying a national flag outside mosques would not conflict with Islamic teachings.
"Putting the Australian flag (outside mosques is) a good sign of integration, of being at one with everyone else in this country and our pride in being Australian," said Sister Abdel-Halim, also a former senior member of John Howard's Muslim advisory body.
"I don't see anything at all that would contradict Islamic teachings in any way. It would be a nice gesture to have it, especially now that Muslims really need to underline the fact that they are loyal to this country."
Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.
Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.
But the move, backed by several LMA board executives, to display the flag outside Lakemba Mosque, in Sydney's southwest, were staunchly opposed by some community members.
It is understood that the LMA's proposal came after a Muslim man tore down the Australian flag from the Lakemba office of the Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, last year and stomped on it to express his opposition to it.
It is believed that Sheik Hilali - who recently labelled Westerners liars and oppressors and said Australia belonged more to Muslim immigrants who "paid for our passports" than Anglo-Saxon convicts - reprimanded the man before ordering him from the office, on the same premises as the mosque.
But Muslim leader Keysar Trad said last night some community members would consider the idea of displaying the flag as "politicising a place of worship".
"I have no problem with the flag being at Muslim schools, but a place of worship is for all people to be equal and as such I believe places of worship should maintain the tradition of not raising the national flag," Mr Trad said.
And prominent Sydney-based Islamic cleric, Khalil Shami, expressed fears yesterday that hoisting the flag outside mosques would lead to potential violence and further division within the community among factions opposed to the idea.
Comment:
Its quite funny how these so called religious leaders say that being loyal to a nation state which is based on non-Islam is compatible with the teachings of islam, yet they fail to provide a single reference from Islamic sources. Maybe its because Islam obliges loyalty to Islam and the ummah only.
In terms of integrating into western society Muslims are prepared to do that, but not at the cost of losing our identity as many other communities have done already.
In their quest to be loyal to Australia and to integrate fully maybe these imams should lead by example and allow their sons and daughters to sunbath, go to nightclubs and pubs and engage in relationships with the opposite sex, after all this is quite normal and acceptable nowadays and only the backward and ignorant Islamic fundamentalists oppose such activities as being decadent and wicked.
Anyone wanna play spot the irony?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Maybe u should lead the way brother inshAllah.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
I am not the one attacking others.
When judging others it is important to stick to the same standards.
Otherwise it is called hypocrisy.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
erm i agree with the cleric who said there's no need to hang flags outside places of worship they shouldn't be used as a place of politics. identity and loyalty can be shown in other areas of life, and community centres are perhaps the best places. i've not seen churches, gudwaras, or temples flying national flags so why should mosques? I think these muslims are being over zealous to appear "integrated". if they wana do it then i don't see the crime, but i'm not an islamic scholar so i'm reserving judgement on that.
Brother showkat i can understand ur sentiments in certain posts u have made and u are a talented writer. However what comes across even in this last comment u made is i duno hatred of the country u live in? So do you really despise the uk and other western countries? If so and your feelings run so deep isn't it better to migrate i mean it appears as if everything here goes against the values u hold?
yes this country has it's problems but is it really that bad yet...? Can you write a poem regarding the merits of this country for muslims coz i can think of many that we take for granted but wud beg for if we were under a dictatorship.
the Paki flag was stuck in my face a zillion times when i was on holiday
God - Pakis can be so patriotic :roll:
even though I'm not a patriotic person i used to stick my flag in their face too
no literally of course
i just used to big up the education, standard of living, NHS system of England etc
and would wear my sisters bright red "ENGLAND" footballers top :twisted:
Thats the only reason why they want to put flags on mosques
because in a muslim country , the majority of people are muslim ...duh
well why do we have to prove how loyal we are , jus because we are muslims we have to PROVE and SHOW how loyal we are to our national government and if we dont show how loyal we are and show how much we support our country that means were all terrorists and walk around with bombs under our jackets :roll:
if they wanna show how australian they are why not put the flags on there houses and wear those silly ozzy hats shouted 'good-day mate'
the mosque is for worship not for any political reasons to show how loyal we are
I wish our leaders such as Blair could put the same amount of effort in showing how loyal they are to british muslims instead of being ultra suspicious of us and arresting us for no reasons :roll:
loooool.
Americans are very patriotic, first thing that struck me was every house had a flag flying outdoors very prominently, just like the movies!. ironic even despite 9/11 american muslims are still viewed as americans, they seem to have little identity crises as compared with brit muslims. i mean how many times have u heard what is it to be a british muslim, can you be both what comes first blah blah blah. it doesn;t seem to be an issue in the usa, why is that?
u know gov are talking about introducing a song in primary schools like the pledge of allegiance that american kids sing u know the anthem u musta heard it they put their hands on their hearts and sing it in assemblies every morning. now i know many parents muslims, christians, atheists, sikhs, hindus who would go crazy if their kids were made to do this. wud u guys be ok with ur kids doing this in the uk?
I got no opinion on the subject.
Could not care less either way.
I was just pointing out the irony of demanding proof when not giving any.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Well its quite obvious that Muslims should only be loyal to Islam and the ummah, but if some people require proof because they are not sure about this issue then all they have to do is ask.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
Its not hatred of the this country at all rather i believe we should hold onto the Islamic values which are superiour to any other values.
If u think that this country is a great place to live then please mention why?
Also as for migration, question is where? Also do not the the people who believe in Allah have more right to be here than people who deny the existence of a creator in the correct way and rule and judge by other than what that creator has revealed?
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
That is not proof. Nor does it live up to your own standards.
"It is quite obvious that pigs can fly." does not mean they can.
(call this effective debate skills 101)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
well brother can u think of no merits at all, surely u can?
i'm not a patriot however there is nothing wrong with pointing out the benefits we have here rather than all the negatives all of the time, nor with loving ones birthplace that is quite natural.
1) despite the misconceptions, ridicule etc muslim women can still wear the headscarf and niqab in this country. This non muslim country doesn;t have to give us this right. There are plenty of so called muslim nations that don't allow muslim women to cover all in the name of "democracy", i.e Turkey, , certain parts of Morocco, Tajikistan.
2) We are given rights to have our places of worship, granted in some areas of the country it may be restricted. But this is a right not a privelege isn;t it? who says blair must accomodate muslims or any other faith, it is a secular state. In many muslim countries they won't even allow churches to be erected even tho our prophet
never disallowed such things. seems so unislamic to me, and ironic.
3) There are a few muslim schools, although now it seems to be under close view of the gov. some are even state funded, or helped to remain private with grants. how many muslim countries would give grants to non muslim religious schools?
4) we are permitted "halal meat" from within our country or from outside, and have had this for many decades. I think it's sweden which prohibts slaughter under the halal and kosher methods. they can import but its so expensive that it is scarcely done. Think about that next time ur at the butchers.
5) for all it's problems we have free speech poems such as urs would be banned had they shown any sort of animosity towards muslim leaders, even if these muslim leaders were corrupt. that's how many muslim countries function under the guise of islam.
6) free healthcare, ok it's technically paid for via our taxes but it helps, particularly those less well off. How many muslim countries offer this. i can't help but think we would struggle well i certainly would. that's one reason i can't leave would need a really good professional job before i could even think about leaving for a muslim country.
7) Housing- free, or low cost housing is available. if ur skint in other countries too bad u will be in the shanty towns or a cardboard box.
8 ) welfare system- many of us get the dole, working tax credits, income support, child benefit etc etc many other countries muslim or otherwise don't offer this. how would we cope without it?
9) women can work if they wish and drive cars some muslim countries women cannot do this.
10) free education all the way up to uni in some cases, it's not free or available to all acrss the world.
These are all benefits which we take for granted im sure there are more, but those came off the top of my head.
Admin
I will only provide proof if u are of the opinion that we should not be loyal to Islam and the ummah? based on evidences of course.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
I want proof that doing so is being disloyal to Islam and the Ummah.
You are making a judgement and not providing evidence for it. And as you yourself have said you dislike such behaviour.
I do not know wether it is allowed or not. So, simply put I am not holding an opinion.
So why is this an act of disloyalty to Islam and the Ummah.
That is a very big statement indeed, and I require evidence to back it up.
Otherwise not only are you as bad as those you are condemning, but worse - hypocritical.
Please do not make unfounded accusations. If you believe this is an act of disloyalty, provide proof.
I for one am glad to be british and living in England.
If you are asking about personal taste - I dislike decorations. They try to hide from the actual.
But that is in general and nonspecific to any cause.
However I cannot see an issue of people putting flags there.
Should the Saudi's stop? (do they put flags on mosques?) Should the Pakistanis? (same question as in the last brackets) should others? (and again)
Me, I do not care about them. Just the fact that you asre making a statement as if it is from Islam, without backing it up.
That is a very big issue in my eyes.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaams Not bad response Admin, u only used the word hypocritical only, not bad at all, adhaab on this board is improving alhamdulilah. Nice also to see that u are leading by example, i certainly take my hat of to you brother.
Muslims should only be loyal to Islam and not to any national flag which is the manifestation of nationalism and non-Islam and the kufr vlaues that it entails.
What u understand and what these people understand and have said is totally different, do u agree or disagree?
It is common knowledge that Muslims should be loyal to Islam and not anything whihc is non-Islamic. Even the non-Muslim knows that u cannot be loyal to non-Islam as well as Islam. Its a simple point.
Well if u dont have an opinion then what are we discussing? Unless u state your opinion what is the point of discussing?
What is the usool u follow and on what basis do u accept evidences? Please answer this then we can proceed.
When u say u are proud to be british and living in england doe sthat mean u regard brit soldiers as your boys? Also when england play lets say pakistan who do u support? also if the Khilafah was established would u regard it as your state or would u join the brit army if asked to do to fight against the Khilafah? Also what is your view on brit values ?
Also u have stated some opinions at long last, alhamdulilah can u also provide evidences for them?
Jzk
nice to see we can have a civil discussion without getting emotional, anyone else who feels proud to be british and join the brit army to go to Iraq and become a martyr can also reply.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
i'm very proud to be british
i'm proud to live in the multicultural city of London
but just cos i'm proud that dont neccessary mean that i love it so much that i'd fight against muslims in Iraq
ur understanding is very extreme
I am not beiong emotional. Cold and calculating.
As I have said this issue I do not care about.
What is your description of 'Do as I say, not as I do!'?
Proof?
Which people? (I assume the aussies? the clerics?), and why should I know what they understand? So neither.
This is why you have to prove it not Islamic instead of just stating so. ALso I like chips. I also like pizza. Not everything is mutually exclusive.
I do not hold an opinion on the subject at hand, but I DO have one on holding others to a different standard than yourself.
The Usool of what? as I said all I expect is you to back something up if you think it is not allowed. I have nmot said it is allowed, or not allowed.
Brit soldiers are not my boys, but if they do good, I can applaud that. If they do wrong I can question that. If you believe britain has no redeeming qualities, please feel free to leave for a place that does.
Sport is irrelevant in the bigger picture. My allegiances can and do change. In Cricket I did support pakistan, but now i just cannot be bothered either way.
There is no khilafah. There will not be one in the near future (Well I cannot see one arising any time soon looking at how fractured and helpless the muslim community as a whole is). If there is one, not all Muslims will agree with it. Afterall Iran is run on shia principles. Is it the Khilafah? What do you mean by khilafah? what for will it have? what function it have?
Since there is no 'khilafah' I do not know and cannot honestly answer this question. It is also a stab in changing the subject to something else.
All these are opinions, not fatwa's or Islamic verdicts. They do not need to be backed up apart from saying this is what I feel.
On the other hand if you make a judgement saying that is the Islamic position, you need to offer proof.
If you ask for proof for an opposing position, but do not offer your own, then it is... What word would you use?
and can you please live to your own demanded level and back up your point that having flags is being disloyal to Islam and the Ummah (and I suppose by thjat you mean it is banned...)
I can haev a civilised argument where ever and when ever, but I am asking you to back up your statements.
Just by saying something does not make it right. nor does it make it the islamic positon.
As I mentioned earlier, saying 'pigs can fly' does not make it true. A fatwa needs proof. saying something is against Islam is a fatwa.
Oh, and what makes you more knowledgeable than these clerics? is there a reason you feel you have the authority to dismiss them? (Since you mentioned Usool, I assume you are either a student, or have done some course or something...)
I do not even have an opinion on the subject at hand, and you are finding my stance hostile. Mayhap you need to look at your posts a little more closely.
For I have not been hostile in this topic. I do know how to be hostile, but i just feel your arguments need a lot of work. When your weaker ones are shot down you will be left with stronger ones. Do not feel it as insulting, it is something people go through.
You get fed arguments, you filter the weak ones out and get left with the strong ones. Then you should form an opnion.
A good lesson in life. One that is painfully learnt.
So why should I be against whatever was in that first post?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaams brother yet again, i hope this time u remember to reply or maybe u want proof for replying as well?
Yes i can provide u with proof, but before i do i would like to know what constitues proof in your opinion?
Also u have mentioned many things without proof i hasten to add. Also just because scholars or whoever says certain thing sit doesnt mean we should accept them. Obviously u being a rare Muslim who thinks its possible to be british as well as Muslim accepts anything which conforms to this opinion and thats the reason why my posts and comments infuriate u so much.
I await your definition of proof as well proof for your points so that i can respond in kind inshAllah.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
Which things do I need to reply to?
What colour is your passport? Mine is red. (Well It was when i last looked at it all those years ago... I think it ran out in 2002 I think...) If yours is red too, then congratulations! you too are part of that rare Muslim breed. One of around 2 million.
For an Islamic matter, Proof is Qur'an and sunnah. But since we are on a forum, and not all scholars (I am not one), I am willing to take the word of a scholar who is using the Qur'an and sunnah for his verdict.
If the scholar is not, then what difference is there between that scholar and the ones you quoted above? (assuming they are not usign the Qur'an and Sunnah. But they probably are. Or should be.)
If someone privudes adequate proof I am willing to change my opinions, as they can be wrong. On the other hand if no proof is provided, what makes their opinions more valid than mine?
But then again this is not about me. It is about you. You demanded Islamic sources from the people in the article you quoted. Then you made a claim for which you provided no sources.
Your posts do not infuriate me. They just show me naivety. A simplicity. An air of innocence. I am not arguing against you, just pointing out flaws in yuor argument and asking for proof.
It was you who started this topic. It was you who commented on another. It was you who said 'yet they fail to provide a single reference from Islamic sources' and followed this up by saying 'Maybe its because Islam obliges loyalty to Islam and the ummah only' without providing a single reference from Islamic Sources.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Proof for what?
Which statement of mine do you wish me to back up?
The one where I said I have no opinion at the matter at hand? The one where I quoted you and asked for someone to spot the irony?
The one where I stated there is no khilafah?
Proof for which Cricket team I support? (alas I fail here. I have no shirt for any team sio cannot privide evidence. Woe to me.)
Or was it the one where I said that pigs do not fly just becasue someone says so? I can prove this easily. Just go to some farm where they rear pigs. You will see they are all on the ground. Try to get one to fly. If you want, you can even cheat and say 'Pigs can fly'.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
PS I am enjoying this topic.
Some of my comments are hilarious. (I am easily amused)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaams once again brother
I'm glad you are enjoying yourself, probably much better than being the Admin of this forum only, its always better having a discussion. Just as a reminder to both of us that Allah swt is witness to this dialogue so Islamic adhabb is very important.
When i asked u for your definition of proof, i think u know what i mean . But i will explain yet again, i can quote u ayahs and hadith, but will it convince u? Or do u have a a different definition of proof?
By the way i intend to circulate this discussion widely so that others can also be amused and contribute inshAllah.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
U wanted daleel, here u are, plenty in this fantastic article
A MUSLIM'S NATIONALITY AND HIS BELIEF
The day Islam gave a new concept of values and standards to mankind and showed the way to learn these values and standards, it also provided it with a new concept of human relationships. Islam came to return man to his Sustainer and to make His guidance the only source from which values and standards are to be obtained, as He is the Provider and Originator. All relationships ought to be based through Him, as we came into being through His will and shall return to Him.
Islam came to establish only one relationship which binds men together in the sight of God, and if this relationship is firmly established, then all other relationships based on blood or other considerations become eliminated.
"You will not find the people who believe in God and the Hereafter taking as allies the enemies of God and His Prophet, whether they be their fathers or sons or brothers or fellow tribesmen." (58-22)
In the world there is only one party of God; all others are parties of Satan and rebellion.
"Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of rebellion. Then fight the allies of Satan; indeed, Satan's strategy is weak." (3:78)
There is only one way to reach God; all other ways do not lead to Him.
"This is My straight path. Then follow it, and do not follow other ways which will scatter you from His path." (6: 1 53)
For human life, there is only one true system, and that is Islam; all other systems are Jahiliyyah.
"Do they want a judgement of the Days of Ignorance? Yet who is better in judgement than God, for a people having sure faith? (5: 50)
There is only one law which ought to be followed, and that is the Shari'ah from God; anything else is mere emotionalism and impulsiveness.
"We have set you on a way ordained (by God); then follow it, and do not follow the desires of those who have no knowledge." (45:18)
The truth is one and indivisible; anything different from it is error.
"Is anything left besides error, beyond the truth? Then to which do you go?" (10:32)
There is only one place on earth which can be called the home of Islam (Dar-ul-Islam), and it is that place where the Islamic state is established and the Shari'ah is the authority and God's limits are observed, and where all the Muslims administer the affairs of the state with mutual consultation. The rest of the world is the home of hostility (Dar-ul-Harb). A Muslim can have only two possible relations with Dar-ul- Harb: peace with a contractual agreement, or war. A country with which there is a treaty will not be considered the home of Islam.
"Those who believed, and migrated, and strove with their wealth and their persons in the cause of God, and those who gave them refuge and helped them, are the protectors of each other. As to those who believed but did not emigrate, you have no responsibility for their protection until they emigrate; but if they ask your help in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and you there is a treaty; and God sees whatever you do. Those who disbelieve are the allies of each other. If you do not do this, there will be oppression in the earth and a great disturbance. Those who believe, and migrate, and fight in the cause of God, and those who give them refuge and help them, are in truth Believers. For them is forgiveness and generous provision. And those who accept Faith afterwards and migrate and strive along with you, they are of you." (8:72-75)
Islam came with this total guidance and decisive teaching. It came to elevate man above, and release him from, the bonds of the earth and soil, the bonds of flesh and blood-which are also the bonds of the earth and soil. A Muslim has no country except that part of the earth where the Shari'ah of God is established and human relationships are based on the foundation of relationship with God; a Muslim has no nationality except his belief, which makes him a member of the Muslim community in Dar-ul-Islam; a Muslim has no relatives except those who share the belief in God, and thus a bond is established between him and other Believers through their relationship with God.
A Muslim has no relationship with his mother, father, brother, wife and other family members except through their relationship with the Creator, and then they are also joined through blood.
"O mankind, remain conscious of your Sustainer, Who created you from one soul and created from its mate, and from the two of them scattered a great many men and women. Remain conscious of God, from Whose authority you make demands, and reverence the wombs (from which you were born). (4:1)
However, Divine relationship does not prohibit a Muslim from treating his parents with kindness and consideration in spite of differences of belief, as long as they do not join the front lines of the enemies of Islam. However, if they openly declare their alliance with the enemies of Islam, then all the filial relationships of a Muslim are cut off and he is not bound to be kind and considerate to them. Abdullah, son of Abdullah bin Ubayy, has presented us with a bright example in this respect.
Ibn Jarir, on the authority of Ibn Ziad, has reported that the Prophet called Abdullah, son of Abdullah bin Ubayy, and said, "Do you know what your father said?" Abdullah asked. "May my parents be a ransom for you; what did my father say?" The prophet replied, "He said, 'If we return to Medina (from the battle), the one with honor will throw out the one who is despised." Abdullah then said, "O Messenger of God, by God, he told the truth. You are the one with honor and he is the one who is despised. O Messenger of God, the people of Medina know that before you came to Medina, no one was more obedient to his father than I was. But now, if it is the pleasure of God and His Prophet that I cut off his head, then I shall do so." The Prophet replied, "No". When the Muslims returned to Medina, Abdullah stood in front of the gate with his sword drawn over his father's head, telling him, "Did you say that if we return to Medina then the one with honor will throw out the one who is despised? By God, now you will know whether you have honor, or God's Messenger! By God, until God and His Messenger give permission, you cannot enter Medina, nor will you have refuge from me!" Ibn Ubayy cried aloud and said twice, "People of Khazraj, see how my son is preventing me from entering my home!" But his son Abdullah kept repeating that unless the Prophet gave permission he would not let him enter Medina. Hearing this noise, some people gathered around and started pleading with Abdullah, but he stood his ground. Some people went to the Prophet and reported this incident. He told them, "Tell Abdullah to let his father enter". When Abdullah got this message, he then told his father, "Since the Prophet had given permission, you can enter now."
When the relationship of the belief is established, whether there by any relationship of blood or not, the Believers become like brothers. God Most High says, "Indeed, the Believers are brothers," which is a limitation as well as a prescription. He also says:
"Those who believed, and migrated, and strove with their wealth and their persons in the cause of God, and those who gave them refuge and helped them, are the protectors of each other." (8:72)
The protection which is referred to in this verse is not limited to a single generation but encompasses future generations as well, thus linking the future generations with the past generation in a sacred and eternal bond of love, loyalty and kindness.
"Those who lived (in Medina) before the Emigrants and believed, love the Emigrants and do not find in their hearts any grudge when thou givest them something, but give them preference over themselves, even though they may be poor. Indeed, the ones who restrain themselves from greed achieve prosperity. Those who came after them (the Emigrants) say; 'Our Lord! Forgive us and our brothers who entered the Faith before us, and leave not in our hearts any grievance against those who believe. Our Lord! You are indeed Most Kind, Most Merciful." (59:9-10)
God Most High has related the stories of earlier Prophets in the Qur'an as an example for the Believers. In various periods the Prophets of God lighted the flame of faith and guided the Believers.
"And Noah called upon his Lord and said, 'O my Lord, surely my son is of my family, and Your promise is true, and You are the Justest of Judges'. He said, "O Noah, he is not of your family, as his conduct is unrighteous; so do not ask of me that of which you have no knowledge. I give you the counsel not to act like the ignorant.' Noah said, O my Lord, I seek refuge with You lest I ask You for that of which I have no knowledge, and unless You forgive me and have mercy on me, I shall be lost". (11:45-47)
"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain commands which he fulfilled, he said, 'I will make you a leader of people'. He said, 'And also those from among my offspring'? He answered, 'My promise does not extend to the evildoers". (1:124)
"And when Abraham said, 'My Lord! Make this a city of peace and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day'. He said, 'And those who reject faith, I will grant them their pleasure for a while, but will eventually drive them to the chastisement of the Fire. What an evil destination!" (2:126)
When the Prophet Abraham saw his father and his people persistent in their error, he turned away from them and said "I leave you and those upon whom you call besides God. I will only call upon my Sustainer, and hope that my Lord will not disappoint me." (19:48)
In relating the story of Abraham and his people, God has highlighted those aspects which are to be an example for the Believers.
"Indeed, Abraham and his companions are an example for you, when they told their people, 'We have nothing to do with you and with whatever you worship besides God. We reject them; and now there is perpetual enmity and anger between you and us unless you believe in One God." (60:4)
When those young and courageous friends who are known as the Companions of the Cave saw this same rejection among their family and tribe, they left them all, migrated from their country, and ran toward their Sustainer so that they could live as His servants.
"They were youths who believed in their Lord, and We advanced them in guidance. We gave strength to hearts, so that they stood up and said, 'Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. We shall not call upon any god apart from Him. If we did, we should indeed have said an awful thing. These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him. Why do they not bring a clear proof for what they do? Who can be more wrong than such as invert a falsehood against God? So, when you turn away from them and the things they worship other than God, take refuge in the cave. Your Lord will shower mercies on you and will provide ease and comfort for your affairs"! (18:13-16)
The wife of Noah and the wife of Lot were separated from their husbands only because their beliefs were different.
"God gives as an example for the unbelievers the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were married to two of Our righteous servants; but they were false to their husbands, and they profited nothing before God on their account, but were told, 'Enter you both into the fire along with those who enter it." (66:10)
Then there is another kind of example in the wife of Pharoah.
"And God gives as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharoah. Behold, she said, 'My Lord, build for me in nearness to You a mansion in heaven, and save me from Pharoah and his doings, and save me from those who do wrong." (66:11)
The Qur'an also describes examples of different kinds of relationships. In the story of Noah we have an example of the paternal relationship; in the story of Abraham, an example of the son and of the country; in the story of the Companions of the Cave a comprehensive example of relatives, tribe and home country. In the stories of Noah, Lot and Pharoah there is an example of marital relationships.
After a description of the lives of the great Prophets and their relationships, we now turn to the Middle Community, that is, that of the early Muslims. We find similar examples and experiences in this community in great numbers. This community followed the Divine path which God has chosen for the Believers. When the relationship of common belief was broken - in other words, when the very first relationship joining one man with another was broken,-then persons of the same family or tribe were divided into different groups God Most High says in praise of the Believers:
"You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day loving those who fight God and His Messenger, even though they be their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. These are the people on whose hearts God has imprinted faith and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which rivers flow, to dwell therein. God will be well-pleased with them and they with Him. They are the party of God; truly the party of God will prosper.' (58:22)
We see that the blood relationships between Muhammad -peace be on him - and his uncle Abu Lahab and his cousin Abu Jahl were broken, and that the Emigrants from Mecca were fighting against their families and relatives and were in the front lines of Badr, while on the other hand their relations with the Helpers of Medina became strengthened on the basis of a common faith. They became like brothers, even more than blood relatives. I his relationship established a new brotherhood of Muslims in which were included Arabs and non-Arabs. Suhaib from Rome and Bilal from Abyssinia and Selman from Persia were all brothers. There was no tribal partisanship among them. The pride of lineage was ended, the voice of nationalism was silenced, and the Messenger of God addressed them: "Get rid of these partisanships; these are foul things", and "He is not one of us who calls toward partisanship, who fights for partisanship, and who dies for partisanship."
Thus this partisanship-the partisanship of lineage-ended; and this slogan-the slogan of race-died; and this pride- the pride of nationality- vanished; and man's spirit soared to higher horizons, freed from the bondage of flesh and blood and the pride of soil and country. From that day, the Muslim's country has not been a piece of land, but the homeland of Islam (Dar-ul-Islam) - the homeland where faith rules and the Shari'ah of God holds sway, the homeland in which he took refuge and which he defended, and in trying to extend it, he become martyred. This Islamic homeland is a refuge for any who accepts the Islamic Shari'ah to be the law of the state, as is the case with the Dhimmies. But any place where the Islamic Shari'ah is not enforced and where Islam is not dominant becomes the home of Hostility (Dar-ul-Harb) for both the Muslim and the Dhimmi. A Muslim will remain prepared to fight against it, whether it be his birthplace or a place where his relatives reside or where his property or any other material interests are located.
And thus Muhammad - peace be on him - fought against the city of Mecca, although it was his birthplace, and his relatives lived there, and he and his Companions had houses and property there which they had left when they migrated; yet the soil of Mecca did not become Dar-ul-Islam for him and his followers until it surrendered to Islam and the Shari'ah became operative in it.
This, and only this, is Islam. Islam is not a few words pronounced by the tongue, or birth in a country called Islamic, or an inheritance from a Muslim father.
"No, by your Sustainer, they have not believed until they make you the arbiter of their disputes, and then do not find any grievance against your decision but submit with full submission." (4:65)
Only this is Islam, and only this is Dar-ul-Islam- not the soil, not the race, not the lineage, not the tribe, and not the family.
Islam freed all humanity from the ties of the earth so that they might soar toward the skies, and freed them from the chains of blood relationships -the biological chains - so that they might rise above the angels.
The homeland of the Muslim, in which he lives and which he defends, is not a piece of land; the nationality of the Muslim, by which he is identified, is not the nationality determined by a government; the family of the Muslim, in which he finds solace and which he defends, is not blood relationships; the flag of the Muslim, which he honors and under which he is martyred, is not the flag of a country; and the victory of the Muslim, which he celebrates and for which he is thankful to God, is not a military victory. It is what God has described:
"When God's help and victory comes, and thou seest people entering into God's religion in multitudes, then celebrate the praises of thy Lord and ask His forgiveness. Indeed, He is the Acceptor of Repentance." (110:1-3)
The victory is achieved under the banner of faith, and under no other banners; the striving is purely for the sake of God, for the success of His religion and His law, for the protection of Dar-ul-Islam, the particulars of which we have described above, and for no other purpose. It is not for the spoils or for fame, nor for the honor of a country or nation, nor for the mere protection of one's family except when supporting them against religious persecution.
The honor of martyrdom is achieved only when one is fighting in the cause of God, and if one is killed for any other purpose this honor will not be attained.
Any country which fights the Muslim because of his belief and prevents him from practicing his religion, and in which the Shari'ah is suspended, is Dar-ul-Harb, even though his family or his relatives or his people live in it, or his capital is invested and his trade or commerce is in that country; and any country where the Islamic faith is dominant and its Shari'ah is operative is Dar-ul-Islam, even though the Muslim's family or relatives or his people do not live there, and he does not have any commercial relations with it.
The fatherland is that place where the Islamic faith, the Islamic way of life, and the Shari'ah of God is dominant; only this meaning of 'fatherland' is worthy of the human being. Similarly, 'nationality' means belief and a way of life, and only this relationship is worthy of man's dignity.
Grouping according to family and tribe and nation, and race and color and country, are residues of the primitive state of man; these jahili groupings are from a period when man's spiritual values were at a low stage. The Prophet-peace be on him-has called them "dead things" against which man's spirit should revolt.
When the Jews claimed to be the chosen people of God on the basis of their race and nationality, God Most High rejected their claim and declared that in every period, in every race and n every nation, there is only one criterion: that of faith.
"And they say: 'become Jews, or Christians; then you will be guided'. Say: 'Not so: The way of Abraham, the pure in faith; and he was not among those who associate other gods with God'. Say: 'We believe in God, and what has come down to us, and what has come down to Abraham, Ismail and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes (of Israelites), and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to other Prophets by their Sustainer. We do not make any distinction among them, and we have submitted to Him. If then they believe as you have believed, they are guided; but if they turn away, then indeed they are stubborn. Then God suffices for you, and He is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. The baptism of God: and who can baptise better than God? And we worship Him alone." (2:135-138)
The people who are really chosen by God are the Muslim community which has gathered under God's banner without regard to differences of races, nations, colors and countries.
"You are the best community raised for the good of mankind. You enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, and you believe in God." (3:110)
This is that community in the first generation of which there were Abu Bakr from Arabia, Bilal from Abyssinia, Suhaib from Syria, Selman from Persia, and their brothers in faith. The generations which followed them were similar. Nationalism here is belief, homeland here is Dar-ul-Islam, the ruler here is God, and the constitution here is the Qur'an.
This noble conception of homeland, of nationality, and of relationship should become imprinted on the hearts of those who invite others toward God. They should remove all influences of Jahiliyyah which make this concept impure and which may have the slightest element of hidden Shirk, such as Shirk in relation to homeland, or in relation to race or nation, or in relation to lineage or material interests. All these have been mentioned by God Most High in one verse, in which He has placed them in one side of the balance and the belief and its responsibilities in the other side, and invites people to choose.
"Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brothers and and your spouses and your relatives, and the wealth which you have acquired, and the commerce in which you fear decline, and the homes in which you take delight, are dearer to you than God and His Messenger and striving in His cause, then wait until God brings His judgment; and God does not guide the rebellious people." (9:24)
The callers to Islam should not have any superficial doubts in their hearts concerning the nature of Jahiliyyah and the nature of Islam, and the characteristics of Dar-ul-Harb and of Dar-ul-Islam, for through these doubts many are led to confusion. Indeed, there is no Islam in a land where Islam is not dominant and where its Shari'ah is not established; and that place is not Dar-ul-Islam where Islam's way of life and its laws are not practiced. There is nothing beyond faith except unbelief, nothing beyond Islam except Jihiliyyah, nothing beyond the truth except falsehood.
(Sayyid Qutb Rahimahullaahu, Milestones, chapter 9)
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
No probs. It is a public forum. However I will be greatful if you do let me know which forums they are.
But don't you find yourself a little condescending with the whole 'will you accept the qur'an' bit... before then I had entirely no idea what you meant. Since it was you who was wanting proof from whoever it was you quoted in that article.
I will read your next post in a few mins, but lunch is calling.
(and remember that I do not have an opinion on the actual subject, more the way things should be discussed.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
brothers.. i aint taking no sides on here..
but i think u guys should chill. personally i think the direction this topic has taken is pointless. show me proof, your proof my proof, who should supply the proof, what is proof etc etc aint gonna get anywhere.
personally i don't believe it is fair a brother asking another brother for proof on an Islamic forum without having had checked their scholarly credentials.. putting a brother on the spot like that is asking for them to go away and get proof.
either way it would be unwise to accept that proof, as he's just a brother off a public forum not a scholar (forgive me both, if you are).
again chill, discussions like this do tend to get heated.. exactly the opportunity where shaitaaan looks to be involved.
peace.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Thanks khan.
We are not having a heated argument. For that to happen, I need to oppose his viewpoint. I am not.
I am just asking him to stick by his own standards he demands of others.
Your passport implies the former. You are in a contract with the state.
And having a look at that article, it ticked all the boxes. proof? check. opinion? check? by a scholar? check.
Only problem is that it has got nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. Which is placing a national flag on or near a mosque.
Please address the subject at hand.
I have been kind in allowing a lot of fishing (changing the subject, looking for an out with different questions...). This is becasue I am not arguing against your point, just asking you to back it up as you have demanded your detractors do so for theirs. And on here it is you who have made an Islamic Edict that it is a betrayal of Islam and the Muslims.
If you want to discuss a diferent subject, start a new topic. This one is about the article you quoted and then refuted.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Admin
Firstly on several occasions i have given u salaams for whatever reason u have refused to reply, hence i would ask the question , Are u Muslim? I need to verify this and i dont mean to insult u, because i honestly dont know.
Also why do u feel the need to opose a viewpoint unless u disagree with it.
Nationlaism is haram in Islam Muhammad saw said " the one who calls for asabiyah, fights for asabiyah and dies for asabiyah does a death of jahaliyah".
All flags based on nation states are haram as they are a propagation of nationalism hence its haram to put them up in the way the article suggests.
Now i have stated my opinion, its time u brought evidence for yours, assuming of course that u have some.
Also can u please explain how it is possible to be british and Muslim at the same time? What do u mean by your statements.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
Alhamdulillah I am Muslim, but once again this is irrelevant. Do you like to just fish around?
This is an ongoing discussion so I can forget to niceties such as Salaam. it is a personal flaw. One that I should see to.
There is also a hadith that defines nationalism as 'supporting your people in something which is wrong.'
Until you do that it is not nationalism.
If you do that even if for a 'Khilafah', it is still nationalism and still forbidden.
I have a British passport. That makes me British. I am Muslim. that makes me both. This is offtopic, but as explained earlier it is possible to like both chips and pizza.
Heck people can even order aburger, fries and a diet coke!
Do you have a British Passport? If so you are British. Are you Muslim? If so you are British and Muslim. One of around 2 million.
Is your position that if you have a british Passport you cannot be a Muslim? Big statement,. but I will let you off as again this is a different subject.
The subject at hand is wether people can put flags on mosques. Finally you have put an argument forward for it. Thankyou.
I disagree with your assessment, but atleast you have moved past the point of demanding evidence and not providing it.
My personal position is that mosques do not need flags. This is not based on a religious view, but personal. (hence the 'do not need' instead of 'should/should not have')
I do not feel the need to oppose you if I disagree. I just picked a safe topic to do so, as onm others I have considered your points weak, but since opthers were argung I did not want iot to look as people were ganging up on you. This time I got first dibs.
You see all those years ago i was also filled with weak arguments. THen they got beaten out of me, leaving me with the stronger ones. Weak arguments make your whole case look weak even if it is strong, so I am doing you a favour.
For all we know there is a ruling that Mosques cannot be personalised in such manner. If there was I would understand it, but if there is not, it is not a good thing to make one up.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaams Brother
JazakAllah khair for your reply, i will reply soon inshAllah. I am about to catch my train for uni, i have lessons tomorrow and tuesday, so will inshAllah reply as soon as i am able.
[url]www.7cgen.com[/url], the place to be
Salaam
Thankyou for letting me know. (even though there is a good chance i will have moved on since. Not too much is of real interest to me in this topic.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
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