Religious leaders in Saudi Arabia want to impose restrictions on women praying in the Grand Mosque in Makka, one of the few places where male and female worshippers intermingle.
But women activists in the kingdom, the birthplace of the religion and where a strict interpretation of Islam is imposed, say the idea is discriminatory and have vowed to oppose it.
At present, women can pray in the immediate vicinity of the Kaaba, a cube-shaped structure inside the mosque, believed to have been built by Ibrahim (Abraham) - seen by Muslims as a prophet - and his son.
Muslims walk around this seven times according to rites first established by Ibrahim and re-established by Prophet Muhammad.
Plans by the all-male committee overseeing the holy sites would place women in a distant section of the mosque while men would still be able to pray in the key space.
Muslims say it is a basic right to be able to pray as close as possible to the Kaaba.
It is towards the Kaaba that Muslims around the world turn when praying.
'Discrimination'
Suhaila Hammad, a Saudi woman member of a body of world Muslim scholars, said: "Both men and women have the right to pray in the House of God. Men have no right to take it away.
"Both men and women have the right to pray in the 'House of God'. Men have no right to take it away"
Hatoun al-Fassi, a historian, said the move to restrict women's prayer in the mosque would be a first in Islamic history.
"Perhaps they want women to disappear from any public prayer area and when it comes to the holy mosques that's their ultimate aim," she said.
She said that the religious authorities have already restricted women's access at Prophet Muhammad's burial place in Madina.
[url=http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7C1B63D5-7633-4809-8811-623B67C97...
What the hell!!
They cant do that! It dsnt state it in the Quran or Hadith that women cant pray in Masjid al Haraami!
hu the hell do they think they are!
The ulama are not taking it away. They are merely proposing that women not pray in the sahn and rather read in a more spacious and more concealed place.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
They are being very snide on the women.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
[b]EDITED
-TPM[/b]
Blah blah, so now they want to restrict where women can pray, wont be surprised if they said next they aren't even allowed to use the mosque at all, views like that tick me off, ppl like that are what makes Islam seem oppressive to women, ARGH!!!
women already pray behind the men so they're at a distance from the Ka'bah anyway? So what's the article getting at?
:?
It's saying thet people are trying to ban women from praying in the non-roofed bit around the ka'abah, at the centre of the mosque.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The ignorami of this age should know that on Jumu'ah the women are not permitted to pray in the sahn anyway and this has been going on for years. Why didnt the ignorami comment on this? Is it because they dont know the details of what is and has been happening and get taken in by half-baked stories.
Similarly - the religion teaches women to be reading in the most concealed parts - the act of the Ulama is in line with commands of shariah. Those who dont know the full facts should find them out before slandering. And two important facts are that they wish for the women to have a larger area which is more concealed.
And finally - in our hanafi madhab the salah of a man is invalid if prayed next to a woman - too often we see the men and women praying next to each other in places such as behind the Maqaam Ibraheem alayhis salaam, or in other parts of the Mataaf/Sahn and generally in the masjid it is seen that men will riggle into the areas of women, women will riggle into the areas of men. Invalid Salah in our hanafi madhab - if the ulama are acting for the betterment and purity of the Holy Haram - it is the duty of every believer to assist them with their hand or with their speech or at the very least with their hearts.
Assalaamu alaykum
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
calling everyone ignorant does not do you any favours.
So drop that elitist attitude before the strain in your neck snaps it.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
the FACT of the matter is that the women will be deprived the right of praying right in front of the kaba-something that i was fortunate enough to do many many times
the kaba is for men AND women
unlike man-God is NOT sexist
if the cavemen have an issue with this then THEY should move and read elsewhere
good point..
i for one do not think its an attempt to degrade the women. it'd be stupid if it was.
i choose to believe that those who have been appointed to manage the most holiest place in the muslim world would have the best intrests of all, both man and woman.
I dunno, maybe there is a better way to sort out the wriggling that's not gonna look so unfair on the women. If anyone has any idea's I say write a letter to the Ulema in Saudi detailing your plans.
but as it stands the wrigglings gotta stop imo.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
I learnt recently that before the bloodbath which gave the saudi's control over the hijaz, there used to be four Jamaah's in Masjid haram. FOUR. One for each madhab.
Now I was surprised. That is what I call working over differences. Being inclusive.
Then the saudi's took over, and after the bloodbath as the time of hajj on GROUNDS WHERE IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TAKE ANY LIFE, all that and many other things were alterred.
Now that may be history, but it shows you cannot just say something is for the better without looking into it.
You may have noticed that while this is my third post in this topic, I still have not actually made an opinion on the subject at hand. (Incidentally this was one of the reason Med's arrogant post riled me up. I get the distinct impression he thinks he is better than us.)
and the higlighted bits by Khan of Med's post have no meaning. You see that is general for the whole mosque, and not just the sahn area. SO invalid in this specific case.
And Med I would like evidence for your assertions. SO that is all they are. Assertions with no proof.
I must admit I aint no fine and dandy Aalim, so I will take my time before I make up my mind. I just want people to provide proof.
And there is back up for the status quo as there a hadith which says the ummah will never unite over an issue with a wrong judgement or something. Since the status quo has been unanimously accepted til now, I will assume that the ummah had united over something.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaam
Hajj is mixed…Safa/Marwa is mixed, Tawaaf is mixed, the walk to Mina is mixed, stoning of the devils is mixed, the standing of Arafaat is mixed, the night of muzdalifah is mixed….in fact the roads of Makkah during Hajj times are unbelievably crowed (and mixed) it used to take us over an hour to get to our hotel which was a five min walk from the Haram.
When the Adhan is called in Makkah and Medinah people do their sajda wherever they’re standing…often mixed.
If the government has an issue with free-mixing…they have a LOT to sort out… because of the large number of people who go there every year and the whole issue of staying near your mehram….I don’t see how they’ll ever solve this problem.
I did my Hajj in 04 and was fortunate enough to read my Salaah directly in front of the Kab’ah many times….
I used to often read Salaah in front of the Ka’bah…I used to sit amongst the women…it wasn’t actually a “women’s area” however men and women often used to divide themselves….only in extreme situations they were unable to do so.
You see the Kab’ah in the pictures, you see it on TV etc…however, NOTHING prepares you for the actual sighting of the Kab’ah.
The first time I read my Salaah there, I was awestruck by its magnificence; its beauty cannot be described in any other way except by pure experience of its presence….reading Salaah directly in front of the Kab’ah is both humbling and inspiring…I myself couldn’t stop my tears…it’s a mind blowing experience.
After experiencing the beauty/presence of the magnificent Kab’ah I feel for the sisters who’ll be robbed of this gift should the government get their way…Inshallah it shouldn’t come to this.
Wasalaam
Some people are so foolish.
Yes I know that what I believe is correct, thats either arrogance or yaqeen - either way I dont apologise for it.
Some people have said that the Ka'bah is for both men and women. What did they mean by this? Did they mean that men and women can pray equally clsoe to the Ka'bah, that they can pray next to each other? This needs to be clarified.
Funnily enough in the time of Nabi Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam it was only men who prayed inside Ka'batullah. In this regard Ummul Mu'mineen Aisha radhiyallahu anha asked and was informed by Nabi salallahu alayhi wa sallam that the ladies may pray in Hateem.
Perhaps the juhhaal of the forum can explain to me why Nabi Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam didnt arrange for the women to pray with the men in Ka'batullah, or even why Nabi salallahu alayhi wa sallam did not allocate a seperate time for women to pray inside Ka'bah?
I await an answer with great anticipation but just as more often than not happens in this place - it will be answered with a sarcy comment which wont answer the question and people will move on.
Khayr - ALLAH has blessed the land of Hijaz with true monotheists and I go along with what my barelwi Ustad says:
"Ya ALLAH jo teri raza woh meri raza"
And beshak the Muwahhiddun in saudia are ALLAH's ridha. May ALLAH preserve them - ameen
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
ok, you do realise the hateem was originally a part of the actual Ka'bah? and that is is in the ocurtyard section. Nay it is touching the ka'abah.
So your own evidence does not stack up with what you utter.
Besides noone is talking about praying in ka'batullah, but around it.
Arrogance is not about you believing yourself to be right. It's because you believe yourself to be better.
And this issue is not even about segregation. Thinking back, I believe I remember a segrated section somewhere near maqaam-e-Ibrahim for women only which is in the sahn. Now it's the segregated areas as such which will be abolished.
And as you yourself kindly pointed out there is a hadith asking for the women Ummul Mumineen to pray in the hateem. That is also in the sahn.
So you can take your holier than thou attitude and actually check things up before just blurting things out as if you are an authority.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I thought that only pious people, politicians, leaders or people with the right links were allowed to pray INSIDE the Kab’ah.
Most men/women are not allowed in.
Like Admin rightly pointed out, the issue is regarding the circular area around the Kab’ah which only a few years ago was made even larger since they knocked the well of Zam Zam down.
p.s what does "Juhhaal of the forum" mean, I'm assuming its the same as being "Jahil"?
It's the plural.
Hence my strongly worded responses.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Your posts were informative. You're pretty clued up, I learnt quite a bit.
Just used the information presented to me to form a different conclusion that the one that was being rammed down my throat.
I have asked Med for more info aswell (about the rules of hanafi salaah to be specific. It does not settle well with what I had previously heard).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Just because the saudies are living in arabia, where the Kabah is, it dsnt give them the right to decide whether if the women can pray ther or not. islam isnt just for saudis and islam dsnt say only they can decide whats right and wrong.
If they think it is a major problem women praying ther, they shud get together with the scholrz around the muslim world and decide whther if ther is a problm or not.
I know theres mixed reactions to this appeared report, some have approved to it and some having disapproved, non the less i for one does not think this idea is discriminatory, the ulema obviously having come to a conclusion for the betterment and good of the women, there are many good points to this that negative , amd defo not an attempt to degrade women like someone mentioned that would be a daft reason.
There is nothing obvious about that.
You are making a number of assumptions:
1. Ulama can never be wrong.
2. Ulama ALWAYS have the best interest of others at heart.
3. It has actually got anything to do with Ulama in the first place
and many many more.
Considering that the Saudi's salughtered about 10,000 people on the day of hajj, on the grounds of hajj to found Saudi Arabia (with the support of the salafi movement), 1 and two are not as clear cut as you say.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
1. Please provide evidence for this.
2. Are you referring to the first Saudi state or the second?
3. Perhaps you can also inform us of the activities of Shareef Hussain, of the Merchants of Jeddah, and also of the troops sent by the Pasha from Egypt and throw in some info for forum members about the activities of the soldiers of the turkish sultan. All in the interests of fairness and not be discriminatory ofcourse bruv. Thanks in advance.
4. Finally the activities of ones forefathers is irrelevant to today. The sins of our elders are upon them and we are only responsible for our own souls.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Irrelevant questions.
You see all that shows is that trust in them doing the right thing is not and cannot be implicit. They are not guilty, as it was previous people who did the crimes. But there is precedence. That is just to refute the line 'they must be doing the right thing'.
You see, no scholar or normal person is ma'sum. We can all sin. We all DO sin. So you cannot implicity imply such loyalty as is suggested. (This implies to all groups. So others may slaughter me on this aswell if they like for questioning their loyalties to their respective scholars.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
These questions would be irrelevant if no-one mentioned the previous alleged activities of the saudi hukumah.
However - as certain persons drew attention to such allegations the subsequent reasoning requesting proof and further clarification is entirely relevant my brother.
One cannot make a post, attempt to discredit the modern day Ulama of Tawheed by referring to historical propogandas/allegations and not expect it to be commented on.
Beshak the Ulama are not ma'soom.
But we can say that using the sources of Wahy (Quran, Hadeeth e Qudsi, Ahadeeth e Nubuwwah), along with the Aathar of Sahaaba Karaam, the Classical Texts and the Ijtihaad of the Mujtahideen A'immah - using ALL these sources - we can see quite clearly that the proposals made by the Ulama of Tawheed is entirely based upon haq.
When the Ulama promote virtue - note the reason this Ummah is Khayra Ummatin (the Best of Nations) is because we promote the Virtue and Prevent the Vice. What needs to be seen is that we are not the best Ummah because we permit the permissible and forbid the impermissible but rather our virtue is attained on the basis of promoting VIRTUE - and this is a higher category than merely promoting the permitted.
Going back to the Ulama. The Ulama are promoting a virtue, no believer in the Tawheed of ALLAH and the Risaalah of Nabi Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam can deny that the womans virtuous prayer is in her home and this was encouraged by none other than our Sayyid salallahu alayhi wa sallam. It should be noted that the actions of the Ulama are in accordance with the advice of Nubuwwat salallahu alayhi wa sallam:
1. The women should be concealed in their prayer
2. They hope to provide a larger more concealed place of prayer.
assalaamu alaykum
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Bro, they consider you a mushrik. I would not call that the ulama of tawheed.
And it is irrelevant as we are not discussing past acts, but drawing precedence to show that you cannot so completely put your trust in others.
Wrong.
Previously (well currently, as I expect this not to have been implemented yet) there were CONCEALED AREAS FOR WOMEN TO WORSHIP IN THE OPEN ROOF SECTION. I even mentioned the location of one (though that is thinking back 13 years) such area.
And considering the area's are being removed, it's a net loss of area.
And it is all pointless anyway as women would still be there. Afterall they also have to do tawaaf.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
LOOOOOOOL.
Kindly provide evidence from the ulama that they consider me a mushrik. On what basis, on what aqeedah. I will be intrigued to find out further - specially as our Ulama have madaaris in Saudia and also teach in Both Haramayn.
Something in accordance with the shari'ah and ALL the proofs of religion does not become wrong merely by the speech of non-entities like myself and yourself bruv. Mute point.
Tell us which area is being removed? Are you even aware of what portions are proposed to be changed or modified or not?
And women doing tawaaf in mataaf is different to them bowing and prostrating in the sahn.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
I can't seem to find any aerial photo's of masjid haram online.
But on the side of the door to the ka'abah and maqam-e-Ibrahim, there is a section which is women only.
and what 'ALL proofs of shariah' are you talking about? It's another assumption.
In answer to why they consider you mushrik, it's the issue of taqleed. They consider it shirk. 'You only follow Allah (swt)'. They may not act against it, but then they do not against others either.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
All proofs of shari'ah refers to:
wahy
Aathar e Sahaabah.
Aqwaal e Mujtahideen A'immah
My brother that comment about shirk and taqleed is laughable. Actually read what Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah wrote, what Shaykh Ibn AbdulWahhab al HAMBALI rahimahullah wrote, what the Shuyuukh from Aal Ash-Shaykh say, what leading ulama of tawheed recent history such as Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen say about taqleed.
Truly - I would have thought you would not be taken in by uninformed slanders about the ulama and rather study their own books before coming to conclusions.
BY ALLAH - among the people of knowledge of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia they have no problem whatsoever with taqleed.
And the taqleed that they reject is the one that we the ahnaaf of indo-pak also neglect.
I really am baffled at such a huge slander on the ulama.
Give us some references brother of the ulama.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
????
have u ever been hajj/umrah?
wouldnt u WANT to read ur salah in front of the kabah?
the idea that only men can read salah in front of kabah and not women is not discriminatory to u?
:roll:
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