Timing's a bit strange, midnight, but that's lovely.

This is an interesting discussion for me to read. I can't credibly input any Islamic opinions but I just want to mention that Shabbat, while it is Sabbath meaning the day of rest, actually is the name of the day, translating as Saturday and derived from a word meaning cease (as in rest). It isn't in itself some kind of blessing. *EDIT - I corrected my post, despite the similarity Shabbat is not also related to the word for seventh* And shalom is a regular greeting meaning peace.

Another thing is I can't believe that the primary purpose of a greeting is to promote conversion or serve Islam, and that a greeting that doesn't meet one of those criteria is impermissable. Is that correct?

And the only other thing I want to mention is that I hope nobody thinks I have a patronising take on this, I'm familiar enough with Jewish legal wranglings that I can observe a parallel and appreciate the nature of the conversation.

And Sh'vua Tov!

Joie de Vivre wrote:

The other thing is I can't believe that the primary purpose of a greeting is to promote conversion or serve Islam, and that a greeting that doesn't meet one of those criteria is impermissable. Is that correct?

I assume there is a greeting that is there for reasons other than (on a generic lever) to promote conversation?

Greetings that are forbidden are those that promote shirk. Using Battlestar Galactica as an example, "May the gods protect you" or some such would certainly not be allowed.

Then there were others I was unsure about - those that use incantations from another religion. There are instances where they have been allowed and not allowed. As for the greetings of shabbat Shalom, the above conversation should show that it is allowed.

@Noor - afaik the only time you are not allowed to pray for a non-muslim is once they are dead as the chance for guidance etc has passed and we cannot pray anymore for the person.

Joie de Vivre wrote:

And the only other thing I want to mention is that I hope nobody thinks I have a patronising take on this, I'm familiar enough with Jewish legal wranglings that I can observe a parallel and appreciate the nature of the conversation.

Nope - if we all had answered there would be no discussion

@ Naz do you have links to discussions/explanations on those ahadith?

A part of them say that to not move out of the way in a path - I assume this is to do with not developing an inferiority/persecustion complex, but those bits could do with greater explanation.

You wrote:

Joie de Vivre wrote:

And the only other thing I want to mention is that I hope nobody thinks I have a patronising take on this, I'm familiar enough with Jewish legal wranglings that I can observe a parallel and appreciate the nature of the conversation.

Nope - if we all had answered there would be no discussion

@ Naz do you have links to discussions/explanations on those ahadith?
A part of them say that to not move out of the way in a path - I assume this is to do with not developing an inferiority/persecustion complex, but those bits could do with greater explanation.

My thoughts exactly but i dont see how moving out of someones way makes you inferior :doubt: . I dont think there was a proper explanation as such but i could be wrong. Cant remember the sites from the top of me head. Ive got them bookmarked on the home comp, when i get home will find them and put them up.

if its impermissable, are we allowed to say hi/ hello to non-muslims?

Young Anonymous Muslimah wrote:

if its impermissable, are we allowed to say hi/ hello to non-muslims?

As far as im aware if anyone offers you salaam you are compelled to return it back. But if they say hi then there are issues as whether you can say hi back what with it not being a Islamic greeting. As for greeting someone first not allowed according to the hadiths i have come across but i could be wrong.

Its really hard to say coz the hadiths only tell us what to do if a Christian/Jewish person greets us. To my knowledge there is nothing addressing non Muslims (again i could be wrong). i think this is a really good question to put forward to a scholar.

Naz* wrote:

My thoughts exactly but i dont see how moving out of someones way makes you inferior :doubt: .

Think American "High school" shows.

It is not about not giving way, but about not backing down.

Ok ran a quick search and found some scholarly opinion which might shed some light on the matter. All of it can be found on IslamOnline.net.

Quote:

Asslam alaikum

1) How do you respond to a non-muslim saying asslam alaikum to you?

Answer
1.If a non-Muslim says salam to you then you also respond to him with "Wa Alaikum". The Salam is a special greeting that Muslims greet each other with. When you meet non-Muslims it is better to greet them with other general greetings such as, "Good morning", "Hello", or just "Greetings". However, if a non-Muslim says Salam to you, then you should respond to him likewise with respect and courtesy. Allah says in the Quran, "When someone gives Salam to you do not say to him 'You are not a believer'" (Surah 4:90).

Quote:

Can a Muslim give the Islamic greetings to a non-Muslim or vice versa?

Answer
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Exchange of greetings between Muslims and non-Muslims is not only allowed but recommended. It is part of the good manners that we should display. There is no clear-cut evidence that would make a distinction between showing this manner to Muslims only.

It is unfortunate that some scholars have misquoted the hadith, "do not greet the people of the book first" and put as a general rule for everybody, while the statement is taken out of context. The hadith talks about one specific tribe (Bani Quraitha), in a particular day because they were at fight with Muslims. Since "Salam" means peace, it did not sound logic to start the people you fight with it.

In addition, taking this hadith in general would contradict with some verses in the Qur'an. One of the verses is the saying of prophet Ibrahim, peace be upon him, to his father, "Salamun alaika", which mean peace be upon you. This is clear evidence in permitting the Salam between Muslims and non-Muslims.

It also goes in contradiction with the practice of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and his companions.

In Sahih Al-Bukhari we read that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) passed by a gathering in which 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul was present, and that had been before 'Abdullah embraced Islam. The gathering comprised of Muslims, polytheists, i.e., isolators and Jews. 'Abdullah bin Rawaha was also present in that gathering. When dust raised by the donkey covered the gathering, 'Abdullah bin Ubai covered his nose with his upper garment and said, "Do not trouble us with dust." The Prophet greeted them, stopped and dismounted. Then he invited them to Allah (i.e., to embrace Islam) and recited to them some verses of the Qur'an.

The above hadith clearly indicates that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) greeted non-Muslims.

Quote:

question: Is It Allowed to greet non-Muslims with the words "As-Salamu `Alaykum”?

Answer: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, thanks for the question you posed, it’s very interesting, and that is why we also try our best to furnish you with appropriate answer.

As far as greeting the People of the Book, Jews and Christians, is concerned, Sheikh M. S. Al-Munajjid, a prominent Saudi Islamic lecturer and author, states the following:

"Basically, it is not permissible to initiate the greeting of Salam to a non-Muslim. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Do not initiate the greeting of Salam to a Jew or a Christian…” (Narrated by Muslim)
If one of them says “As-Samu `Alaykum” – meaning, may death be upon you – or it is not clear whether they have said “As-Salam” or "As-Sam", then we should respond by saying “Wa `Alaykum” (and upon you).

On this issue, Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with them both, quotes Allah’s Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: “When the Jews greet you, they say ‘As-Samu `Alaykum (may death be upon you),’ so respond by saying ‘`Wa Alaykum (and also upon you).’” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

However, if a non-Muslim greets a Muslim with with the correct Islamic form of greeting (i.e., by saying ‘As-Salamu `Alaykum’ clearly), the scholars differed as to whether the Muslim has to return the greeting. The majority of scholars maintain that Muslims do have to return such greeting, and this is the correct view.

This is what is clear in the statements of Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allah rest his soul in peace: They (Muslim scholars) differed as to whether it is obligatory to return the greeting or not. The majority said that it is obligatory and this is the correct view. A group of scholars said that it is not obligatory to return such greeting, just as it is not obligatory to return the greeting of those who follow Bid`ah. But the correct view is the first one. The difference is that we are commanded to forsake the followers of Bid`ah by way of rebuke and to warn others about them, which is not the case with Ahl Adh-Dhimmah (Jews and Christians). (Zad Al-Ma`ad, 2/425, 426)

In returning the greeting, the Muslim should respond in the manner prescribed by Shari`ah, by giving a similar or better response, because of the general meaning of the following Qur'anic verse:

“When you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or (at least) return it equally.” (An-Nisa’: 86)

Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allah rest his soul in peace, said: If a Muslim is certain that the words used by Dhimmi in greeting him are ‘As-Salamu `Alaykum’, should he say ‘Wa `Alayka As-Salam’ or shorten it to ‘Wa `Alayk’? According to the principles of Shari`ah, he should say ‘Wa `Alayka As-Salam’, because this is more just, and Allah commands us to be just and to treat others well…" (Ahkam Ahl Adh-Dhimmah, 1/425, 426)"

Pay particular attention to the bold. Mega confused :?

The first one explains the latter.

The hadith is about a specific instance, but because other scholars do not know the specific situation it is referring to and have gone and made it a general rule, which according the the first is the wrong interpretation.

You wrote:

The first one explains the latter.

The hadith is about a specific instance, but because other scholars do not know the specific situation it is referring to and have gone and made it a general rule, which according the the first is the wrong interpretation.

But but but if the first bold bit talks about the hadith relating to a specific incidence how can then another scholar totally ignore that and make up their own ruling? Thats what it looks like to me.
Or has the latter scholar taken the literal meaning of the hadith rather than taking the metaphorical meaning like the first scholar? :?

p.s. someones deleted my bookmarks :x Wait till i find out who it was, there life aint gonna be worth living.

Anways ran a search cant seem to find the links but did come across this which i think might anwswer your question.

greeting non muslims

paragraph 4

wednesday wrote:

hmm, Naz, isn't the Bold hadith related to people who actually new that they were saying 'As-Sam' (death) instead of 'As-salaam' (peace) to the prophet intentionally?

and that's why we must reply by 'Wa'alaiykum' and not the whole thing... But I really don't see the bad in intiating a salaam, can soemone help why it ain't allowed (tis new to me!)

Yep they knew what they were saying and it was deliberate on their part hence why the Prophet replied the way he did. As for initiating read the above link at paragraph 4 that might answer your question.

But but but if the first bold bit talks about the hadith relating to a specific incidence how can then another scholar totally ignore that and make up their own ruling?

It is not about "ignoring it" but either lacking the information/background/context OR extrapolating that the situation itself did not matter in this case and that the quote applied to all situations.

PS the original question was NOT about greeting non muslims, but rather using the greetings of another religion.

(i asked shaykh faraz rabbani (sunnipath) about the questions raised, insha'Allaah they should clear up any confusion now, haven't read the thread so i don't no if the orginal questions have been answered)

You wrote:

@Noor - afaik the only time you are not allowed to pray for a non-muslim is once they are dead as the chance for guidance etc has passed and we cannot pray anymore for the person.

seems like you're right. we can pray for their guidance as well their health/wealth and everything else but not for their forgiveness if they die as non muslims that is.

regarding greeting non muslims with salam, this is conditioned by when there is no need or benefit in doing so. in general if they give us salam (non muslims) then we reply with 'wa'alaykum' and/or with other customary greetings.

as for other customary greetings (greetings used by people of other faiths), a smile and customary responses are fine.

[ref: Nahlawi, al-Durar al-Mubaha; Ibn Abidin, Radd al-Muhtar; Khadimi/Birgivi, al-Bariqa al-Mahmudiyya Sharh al-Tariqa al-Muhammadiyya; Nawawi, al-Majmu` Sharh al-Muhadhdhab]

Noor wrote:

regarding greeting non muslims with salam, this is conditioned by when there is no need or benefit in doing so. in general if they give us salam (non muslims) then we reply with 'wa'alaykum' and/or with other customary greetings.

as for other customary greetings (greetings used by people of other faiths), a smile and customary responses are fine.

Noor, can you PLEASE give me a reference for what you saying?!

You wrote:

But but but if the first bold bit talks about the hadith relating to a specific incidence how can then another scholar totally ignore that and make up their own ruling?

It is not about "ignoring it" but either lacking the information/background/context OR extrapolating that the situation itself did not matter in this case and that the quote applied to all situations.

PS the original question was NOT about greeting non muslims, but rather using the greetings of another religion.

So many ppl have have so many questions i got confuddled . Anyway cant find anything about using non islamic greeting by Muslims. InshAllah Noor's Scholar dude might provide some answers.

Ya'qub wrote:

Noor wrote:

regarding greeting non muslims with salam, this is conditioned by when there is no need or benefit in doing so. in general if they give us salam (non muslims) then we reply with 'wa'alaykum' and/or with other customary greetings.

as for other customary greetings (greetings used by people of other faiths), a smile and customary responses are fine.

Noor, can you PLEASE give me a reference for what you saying?!

huh

[center][color=darkorchid]Juma Mubarak! Shabbat Shalom![/color]

[img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/234/purplestarfishonrocksil0.jpg[/img...

<?php

$message[] = 'Juma Mubarak';
$message[] = 'Shabbat Shalom';

$display = implode(' and ', $message);

echo $display;

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Jumma Mubarak everyone

Jumma Mubarak Everyone

Juma Mubarak!

Shabbat Shalom!

wednesday wrote:

Why do I love the star fish, ducks, the space (look like an owl's eyes), the jungle/lake thing and the writting?

How was your friday?

Good... good... very... halal... totally.
{looks around suspiciously}

"<a href="http://www.therevival.co.uk/taking-part-non-islamic-festivals" target="0">Shaykh Salim Giza</a>" wrote:

There are different rulings for Muslims participating in non Islamic festivals and this depends on whether the festival is a religious cultural or habitual practice.

The following therefore applies; It is Haram for a person to take part in a religious festival belonging to other faiths where practices of Kufr or Shirk take place, i.e. singing statements which worship other deities e.g. ‘Jesus is the son of God’. Or where the act would mean going into a religious place of worship such as Church, Synagogue, Temple etc and then being part of their worship. It is also forbidden to take part in festivals such as Halloween as it entails a medieval pagan festival of the coming of winter.

It is Makrooh (disliked) to participate in festivals where there is no benefit to an individual and money is wasted.

It is permissible for a person to take part in an event which does not entail Haram activities and enables unity and love amongst each other.

A Muslim may not be allowed to take part in another person’s religious festival but must respect other people’s belief and therefore cannot criticise to cause offence to other faiths.

Also, Muslim leaders and scholars may be involved in activities such as multi faith events where the intention is to give the position of the Muslims and to provide Muslims with a positive view in front of other faiths.

Where Muslims take part in dinners or a get together especially if it involves members of their family who are Christians then this is perfectly allowed as long Haram activities as drinking or the presence of Alcohol or Music are not involved. It is important for Muslims to maintain family ties and show love and respect for others. Shaykh Gibril Haddad writes ‘Keeping family ties is an obligation on every Muslim, i.e. with one’s parents. If wine is served then such meals or gatherings are devoid of blessing and one should neither condone nor participate in them except for the minimum presence that filial respect demands’.

Sending Christmas cards to non-Muslims can be permissible if the intention is to promote good character of a Muslim but again this should not be done in general circumstances as it is a waste of money and time.

Of course Allah knows best.

Although this is a ruling on a different matter, it seems to me that maintaining good relations with non-Muslims, as well as family and others, "filial respect" and exhibiting general good character, is an important element in the Shaykh's thinking that could bear on this discussion.

^^^ ditto i agree. Thanks for that Joie de Vivre

Early Jummah Mabrook! people
and shabbat shallom!

Jumu'ah Mubarak and Shabbat Shalom!

The jubba that makes travel a breeze!

Jummah Mubarak and have a nice day tomorrow (that's safe, right?)

[IMG]http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4692/failownedstolencreditcabo8.jpg[/...

[center][img]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6660/20080815145713406620522qy6.jpg[/...

[color=deeppink]Sh'vua Tov![/color]

[img]http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3586/20070128183429img0052lk2.jpg[/im...

(More clouds here...)

jumma mubarak

dos shabbat shalom literaly mean shabbat peace? cuz i thort shalom meant peace?

It does.

So a late Jummah Mubarak and Shabbat shalom.