So, i was reading the shabina begum thread, the young muslim female who would like to wear the jilbaab was it? in school n she took the school to court etc, you all kno the case, anyhow...
Some points were raised about Hizb ut Tehrir, and i got to thinking (its always trouble when I think) what exactly is hibz ut tehrir all about. The media likes me to think they are terrorist supporters, like al mahajiroon who i think are a split offa HT. I kno a crazy guy who is a part of HT, he's become crazy now that he's with HT, he wasnt crazy before.
The HT, what do i know about them?
Well, they want a khilafah somewher, n they think they can get sunni's n shias living together (yeh right, dream on fools).
They do not respect the rules and laws of this kuffar land, which begs the question as to why they live under kuffar rule...
Groups and people I associate with HT?
[u][b]Al-Mahajiroon/Al-Goraba/Al-Loonies[/b][/u]
[b]Anjum Choudary[/b] Yup the guy who is the only "muslim" on TV cuz all the others dunt have big enough beards or dunt wear hijab, so they cant possibly be muslims can they? But wait a minute, i dunt remember hearing if I dont have a hugh beard i cant b a muslim. Oh another thing, thought muslims were well mannered, this guys "[i]Shaykhs[/i]" dint teach him that did they?
[b]Omar Bakri[/b] Yup the guy who fled the country, although he'll hav you think he went at his own will, now living in lebanon I think, originally started Mahijroon if my sources are correct. Anjum choudary is his bitch, oh i mean... :oops: his associate
[u][b]Supporters of Sharia[/b][/u]
[b]Abu Hamza [/b] Yup the pirate with the hook and the eye patch, who says he received the injuries by helping in the afghan-russia war. Although Me n my friends have other theories 
...We dunt need to worry much about him cuz he's pickin up soap in prison for the next few years. But has he already been allowed to preach hatred too long?
Now, HT, What are they, what do they want, what are their aims and ambitions, do they really want a khilafah? where? is the position for leader of the khilafah still open? if so, can i apply online?
lol ohhh dear. :?
why is it that people associate everything 'crazy' to HT? i blame the Muhajiloonies. they formed their own group coz they disagreed with HT (which was obviously too moderate for them!) :roll:
the HT members i know are some of the most eloquent, polite and forthright people i have had the pleasure to meet. ofcourse u get the few crazy people in every group, and thats a shame because everyones so eager to smear HT, muslims included. :?
its a common misconception that HT want to overthrow the government and put in place a Khilafah system in the UK. since their inception they have primarily been working towards the establishment of Khilafah in the Middle-East, in countries where the population is predominantly Muslim. and HT-UK have been attempting to make this idea of Khilafah more acceptable to Western Muslims, because many of us see it as ancient and doomed to fail or summat. :?
an extract from the HT website:
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
why not? i find that offensive.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
So they want khilafah in arab countries somewher? well, thers shia countries of wahabi counntries, whabis think evrybody but themselves are kafir, so unless HT are predominantly wahabi then it aint hapnin, as for shia countries, thers always this differnce of opinion, which leads to something being blown up between shia's and sunni's, or atleast lately it seems that way. Either that, or the wahabis are tryna get a war started between shia's n sunni's. Which i think is very possible although evryone will call it conspiracy theory.
So, anyhow, HT are not extremist? ok, so wher duz the khilafah take place? and who leads it, cuz a khilafah system needs an ameer, a leader, who is it? Tony Blair, Saddam Hussain, Ahmednajad, who?
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
I am sure we can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to name twisting...
I do not know muchabout HT's, apart from they were banned at my uni.
I met one, and his position was he could not tell me what their position was until I joined the group... and I would refuse to join any group before knowing what they stood up for.
Apart from that my knowledge on them is either thirdparty, or hearsay.
one thing we have to be clear about is that they are oficially non-violent. not pacificsts, or anti-violence, but their current policy is against violence.
They do not want buses blown up in london, or anywhere else.
And they are massively influential in british uni's. Their main targets are those who do not know Islam. These people are easily impressed by Islam. (why did their parents not teach them?)
They have good points, and they have bad points. One of the bad points, which some members share with loads of other people is the lack of will to use their brains. I have come across this in amny people, so its not exclusive to them. 'you do not have to understand it'. That is taqleed. but do tey acept madhabs?no...
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
I must be mistaken then.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The guy i kno who is a member of HT, he wasnt practising, and hardly knew a thing about islam b4 HT came along n snatched him up. now he's abit loopy.
HT do accept madhabs cuz the guy i kno is hanafi. But they are a lil sectarian, mayb not the group, but definatly scholors who work with HT teach sectarianism.
So, this info so far leads me to think HT are all good,but i feel as tho im only getting one side of the story, why are they banned at universities? Why do many people dislike them.
Are HT trying to get in politics in UK, or r they jus dreamin of khilafah.?
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
According to them man made law is haraam/kufr/shirk, so muslims are not allowed to participate in uk politics, or any democratic process.
so, no they are not trying to get into uk politics. Well they may be now that their existence is threatened...
I have no idea why they were banned at the uni though...
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
If there was any truth to that statement the then “Wahabi” would have banned everyone but themselves from performing hajj!
I can't believe how some muslims are sometimes. We always complaining that the non muslims fail to understand and the media misrepresent Islam, but at the same time we do the same to our fellow muslims as well. It seem HT and the Wahabbi's are the number one victims of this, well in the mainstream sunni population i have seen. It seem that we have a group of muslims who analyse and look for weakness in other muslims. The hadith about covering the fault of the other muslims doesn't seem to apply anymore.
I agree that HT and some of these other groups are far from perfect, but the same is said of all muslims IMO at the Moment. I personally found HT very helpful when i first start taking Islam seriously and it help me understand the conflict of intrest i had in my mind, the idea that HT are only about the Khalifah is wrong, they have done loads of work in the area of Drug abuse and other contempary issue and to my mind were the first group to bring English speeches and literature on islam when they first came popular. Plus in my area we only have like 10 HT member but they by far the most active muslims in the area. They have changed alot since there peak 10 years ago as they had to.
On the Khalifah, i remember even Zaid Shakir mentioning that the West are truely scared of giving full Democracy to the muslims country as they seen the people opinion in Iran and Palestine indicate a move to a more islamic based government. Whether it based around the HT model or will evolve to be different, one thing has to said is that HT as a group have brought more awareness over this. I recommend people read the following interview of the HT
[url=http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2368393]HT[/url]
The sad thing about this whole mentality is that, most of these people haven't really even discuss or approach any group and had a serious discussion with them. They will tke one or two example, read somethoing in the media and form their ideas from that. If people were to go with a open mind, you find that the most muslims don't have different intention then any other muslims, just because they may think different, doesn't automatically make them wrong.
To my mind, too many muslims have the mentality of football supporters, you will never see a Manu fan big up the way Arsenal play and will always look for negative in what they do, just like they will do with Chelsea and vice versa as well. But you find a person who just love watching Football and support no team, will embrace anything good he see in Football. This is one of the reason i can never see myself following one Shaykh or one group.
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
well said yuit, i agree.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
You'd be surprised what they are trying to to, I was fortunate enough to see a slideshow of places in makkah and madinah. It was presented by a Historian of Makkah and Madinah, he has studied under Alawi scholors from Makkah.
Anyway, he was saying that the saudi's (wahabi scholors to be precise) are trying to change the visa's for umrah and hajj, so that when anyone goes, they go to makkah only and are not allowed into madinah, becuz apparantly when we go to madinah all we do is commit shirks and biddahs.
And besides that i have many family members who are Wahabi's, 2 of which are Imam's in mosques, and 2 who are in schools training to become scholors. And, they str8 up tell me im a kafir if i do this and that and if i beleive in tawussul etc then im a kafir.
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
Yuit, the reason i put this thread up is cuz i saw HT n al mahajiroon bein dissed in another thread, n wanted to kno more about them, cuz i kno hardly anything about them.
Who will be the Leader of the khilafah ive still no answer.
Oh another thing, who runs HT? one person or a group? is there a central entity?
Do HT have crazy Media Relations people like anjum choudary?
Oh, anjum choudary is definatly a nutcase, i dunt expect to see anyone try to stick up for him :x
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
the main objective of hizb ut tahirr is to estblish an islamic state n 2 bring islam bk in the western world. alot of my frends are membrs of hizb ut tahirr n thr not crzy, they just wnt khalifa. if u wana no more about them check out thr website.
http://hizb.org.uk/
an extract from the HT website:
I would want to know why?
Is that not working for it universally, maybe? maybe not? seems a bit totalitarian but still amkes some sense, sort redo what was undo after about 1924. er..I hope they mean enjoining the good and forbidding the bad, or are they saying the Muslims should make Da'wah from inside these countries? Should know what they mean by 'carrrying' essential part of islam seems a bit iffy. But well said about Islamic culture!
Naturally? is it just me or are they being a bit secretive, They don't actually delve into what Da'wah theyre carrying (in the above paragragh) but do use some leading language to make an impression upon the reader.
Oh well, at least there's a voice being raised for the Khilafah.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Thing is, the khilafah system i dnt think will work today, the khilafah which ended in 1924 or thereabouts, ended due to a dodgy leader, Harun Rashid I think his name was, summin rashid anyway. B4 him it was all good, but Ameer Rashid came n kinda ruined things, sold out basically, which is well documented.
In the state we are in, were there is a colonisation within the muslim ummah, only a few pockets of which feel asthough everybody should agree with difference of opinion, myself included.
Everybody else, like to beleive only they are right, n the rest are to liberal or are too extreme, and they call one another kafir for some of the sillyiest reasons. This is the precise reason i mentioned Anjum Choudary, this guy represents A group which agree with HT in the khilafah thing but is a lil too violent to be HT to my knowledge. Imagine some fool like him having an important role in a khilafah system, he'll go power mad n kill anyone who doesnt have a beard or doesnt wear hijab.
This colonisation within the ummah is the reason i cant see a khilafah working for the ummah as a whole, there will be some who will be able to get along, others will go crazy n blow up mosques, darbars etc. Call me crazy but I think [b]A khilafah System in our time is an invitation to civil war[/b]
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
the HT issue again!!!!
no surprise Dust and YUIIT are there to defend the Muslims again..bless....how sweet.
its funny, we're not allowed to constructively criticise anyone anymore. They're Muslim...even if you dont like what they do, preach etc...you cant criticise them.....
i dont think so...
as long as criticism is constructive, done for the right reason then nothing wrong with it.
i get criticised awful lot, revival gets criticised alot...i dont mind. constructive criticism i take on board, stupid criticism ...i ignore....
i disagree with HT on many , many things...
great ulema disagree on HT on many many things...wel actually hardly any great well renowned world scholars agree with HT...but anyway... as Dust and Yuit say...' they're good'.. 'we should support them'.
So to the 'Defending Duo'.... let ppl criticse..we're not sheeps, we can agree, disagree, criticise...as long as it is done in a proper way...
I have to say I'm not as anti-HT as I was before. They have alot of eloquent spokespersons and their critiques of western secular liberal democracy are thought-provoking. And their anti-drugs efforts give the rest of the community an avenue through which to better society.
But I don't like their segregationist policies of not getting involved in the political system. Their contention that becoming politically active is an act of kufr is frankly unnecessary. There's no need for it.
And their message isn’t helped by their ‘supporters’. The media spokespeople are always eloquent and come across as genuine. But if you come across someone who’s read a few pamphlets or been to the website and conferences you can expect a barrage of loud slogans and accusations of kufr and whatnot.
The reestablishment of the khilafah is a very trick business. There’s no agreement as to what powers or status the khalifah would have. Would he be a continuation of the system from 1924 or 1923? In either of these cases which government would he be answerable to? Would we even follow the Ottoman model? Or would we pick another model from another time in Islamic history from a different part of the world? It’s a tough business for which consensus among ulema is needed – not pamphleteering.
If, If a khilafah was to retun, i cant see the Abbaside, andolusian or Ottoman-esqe models working in this day and age. The systems changed from tym to tym and rightly so.
We are in a day and age in which technology and media define or run our lives. Also, havin a Caliph who will run the Caliphate his whole life, is it wise? Muslims hav let corruption ruin them, and sectarianism has also ruined us majorly.
Who will run the khilifah?
If a sunni duz it, wat do the shias, wahabis, deobandis etc do? vice versa.
Also, how will this guy kno how to run a country? when HT are not involved in politics or running anything, all they are doing is community work, which is good n fair enuff, but a difference between runnin a country n helpin with drug problems.
Also also, R HT blinded to the signs of the final hour, many of which clearly state muslims will fight n bicker amongst themselves n there will b no consensus between muslims, until Imam Mehdi a.s.
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
I think 'Ed can still feel his emotional scars from when he was at uni... in 1884? :twisted:
To be honest I was of the opinion that HT are all wrong.
Then at the Muslim Unity convention in Manchester, I agreed with every point made by their speaker.
I still have a somewhat unnatural suspicion of them... which is not good.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
down with the HT!!!
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
you know what Ed, forget it. there's no point in me even replying anymore because you'll just continue being condescending.
wassalaam.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
I knew you would get abit excited over this thread and thank you for your kind words
. Remember you was the one talking about Wisdom in how you project yourself, now from past experience i sure you know where these thread normally end up, I remember BB, who i assume is your Big Brother (same type of style as you) ranting and raving over this subject, my only objective was to stop that happening again. Because it sad but some muslims do have Hatred for other muslims and can not critise fairly. So they no need for your cheap shot and i think you need to apologies to Dust who is by far one of the fairest poster on this forum, who also back up her opinion with evidence.
Plus I have nothing against people critising them, as long as it done in the right manner and alhumduillah Beast has done it well, there is alot of question that still need to be answer and I can kind of understand where Razor coming from. But i like to think we do have some muslims out there who can unite the ummah, i always hearing the word Awliya and IMO no Shaykh or Scholar can be really seen as a true Awliya, if he hasn't the ability to unite the ummah and see past what groups and sects people have, if anyone had read the article on HT i put up they would realise as a group they looking past what group you from. Plus i heard that statement about Imaam Mehdi alot, but surely that doesn't mean as muslims we shouldn't try to unite the Ummah in whatever way possible, as muslims we should strive for perfection shouldn't we!!!!!
So people you can carry on critising HT if you want, but if you really truely want answers, get in contact with one of their people, such as Taji Mustafa, Abudullah Rubin or Jaluddin Patel, they also have some very educated sister as well. I sure the people of Minhaj wouldn't agree with people critising their movement from the outside without making no attempt to understand them by talking to one of their scholars, we all know the actual member can be hit and miss, imagine talking to someone like Susan about Minhaj :roll:. But it up to you, i realise of late people do need people to hate, their life is like incomplete if it isn't the case. :roll:
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
Yuit I read the interview you posted, the leader had some good points which i agreed with, but he hid some things well.
For example, HT make up there own aqeedah, which i confirmed yesterday, i rang amember to ask him a few questions, and he told me that he, along with other HT people do not beleive in punishment of the grave, and are extremely anti-sufi. Yet, he said he was a hanafi by madhab.
Please read the following page .... The 1st account duznt tell u much, but the 2nd is very informative and 3 n 4 r ok.
[url]http://www.inside-ht.com/ht_articles/why_I_left.htm[/url]
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
Oh yeh forgot to mention, HT also beleive that Imam Mehdi, and Isa A.S. might not be returning. They say these hadith which say that imam mehdi a.s. and Isa a.s. will return r debateable.
Every muslim sect on earth beleive in them hadith and put them in there aqeedah, HT have taken deviation to another level.
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
I have an issue with their approach and don’t understand much of their ideology…
I personally know loads of HT’s.
When I first became interested in Islam, I spent a lot of time in their study circles.
However, I found it difficult to carry out the work they told me to do…in your face dawah goes against my nature.
Also, I felt that I don’t know anything about Islam myself…so how can I be stopping people in the middle of town centre and telling them what they should do.
I admire the way they can target the average astray youth of the street…and many of them are charismatic, dynamic speakers.
Being an HT isn’t for everyone, and of course, you get the good and the bad in every group.
Also, HT say amphetamines are not haraam, they say its ok to take em. My HT insider told me of some HT members who take amphetamines especially summin called khat, which i dunt hav a clue wat it duz.
The insider told me that some members got thrown out of HT cuz they were always high on amphetamines and used to miss salah etc. n nuffin was sed to them, until they started missing weekly study circles which is compulsory for HT members.
_____________- -SupeRazor- -_______________
Some ppl make their goals the stars.
They may live n die n never reach the stars,
but in the darkness of the night, those stars will guide them to their destination.
Becuz they made them in their eyesight
anything else ludicrous you heard about the HT?
thats one of the reasons i dont like them, coupled with
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
aaah, another group bashing thread..
Constructive critiscm of a group,.. yeh thats all good and I think some members on here have done it very well by quoting their website, and invisible friends, it all good.
But loony toons as a title for the thread when discussing a group, I'm sorry, thats just asking for trouble. Its not really a basis for serious discussion.
HT, in my opinion have got great qualities. Every single news interview I've seen with HT members, they have passed their message and views of Islam very well. Better than most of the other's who barely know how to speak English.
In terms of Dawah, they're doing that well, not that I agree with their methods. The HT brothers at my local mosque don't do drugs, they are one of the most active brothers there.
Now all those that have posted the differences in opinions from the Holy revelations,.. cool. But I'm sure that most of us on here might have a difference in opinion regarding certain things..
Why don't we all start cursing each other and calling each other names :roll:
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
I agree with Khan. I found some of the views so far very pathetic.
Especially this one, after all that was said, you still went to a anti HT website for your views, what that all about. It like a non muslims going to answering islam or faith freedom to discover about islam. :roll:
No you find that it was the view of their founder, the group has evolve alot over time, The group that i first saw 10-15 years ago to the one exist now is nowhere near the same. At present IMO it mostly a political group with interest in the general muslim community. I never to this day had a HT member preach to me on Aqueedah issues. So why this issue is always brought up i don't know. Anti Sufi first time i heard that, i agree none of their member are sufi, but anti that new to me. Hanafi is broad statement, Deobandi are Hanafi so r Brelwi, but at time they seem like they share little in common.
I won't even bother with some of the other stuff that was raised, as i wouldn't want to waste my time, even though i suspect i already have, as people are of a mindset already. This thread remind me of the one Med started on Minhaj, it seem some people are happy to give it but can't handle it when it on the other foot, omrow been given a free reign on Wahabi and Salafi as well. I say believe what you want, but remember a day will come when as muslims we will have to account for everything. Anyway like Dust i will leave this thread now so enjoy.
wasalaam
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
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