You quote articles that mention there are only two eid, but ignore the hadith mentioning that friday is also an eid.

Now, you have logic to back up your point, but I dont accept it as it does not cover all the context.

At the same time, you will never accept what I say either.

(It all goes down to the basic point of fiqh, where you either accept "everything is allowed unless forbidden" or you follow "evreything is forbidden unless it is allowed". AFAIK the hanafi view is the former except for creating new commandments and prohibitions.)

You will talk down scholars you dont agree with and support to the end those that you do, even though both will use evidnence from the qur'an and sunnah.

See, there is a dispute in context and logic.

I will never accept your postion and you will never accept mine as we prefer different interpretations and scholars who have different interpretations.

as for the hadith again here is what the hadith states The Messenger of Allaah

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

said: 'Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his

own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him

tell me where does it say whoever innovated a new sunnah or innovates a new thing in the religion of islam, it says starts a good thing,

You do realise that starting a new good deed that is copied is the starting a new sunnah? Pretendingthem to be different is a play on words.

Just like sometimes the arabic word yafrahoo is translated to "make mery" or "celebrate", the two are different translations of the same word.

In the same way an action that is copied is a tradition,  a sunnah. Not the sunnah of the prophet (unless it was done at the time of the prophet, the prophet was present or addressed the issue in a non negative way) but a sunnah. Or an alternative translation of the same would be bid'ah.

So you could also translate the same hadith as "whoever starts a good bid'ah and it is followed by others"

These are all correct translations of the arabic and your position is hiding behind translations.

Otherwise, you posting on these forums is a bid'ah, it is a religious type of posting as you are attempting da'wah, but according to your views such things are not permissible because you cannot do a new religious thing, like you cannot read nafl as part of mawlid celebrations, you cannot post online for religious purposes as both are putting old actions in context of the new. Except that I argue the issue of mawlid is from qur'an and sunnah (where you even accept one hadith about the prophet fasting) where God sents his peace upon a prophet on the day of his birth. The internet for Islamic propagation however... where is the evidence allowing that? (and make sure the evidence then doesnt allow other things you forbid, as I suspect it is a catch 22 situation for you)

so these are the words of muhammad saw 2 eid a year friday is different type of eid it is weekly and has different attributes

so muhammad saw rejected the bidah of another celebration

your quotes do not support your views.

1. The quotes are about the greatnes s of the eids, but they do not refute other days.

and you mawlid is worse then the ones muhammad saw rejected for that is a copy of christman even worse

2. Not at all. But I wonder what your opinions are on the ashura.

You wrote:

You quote articles that mention there are only two eid, but ignore the hadith mentioning that friday is also an eid.

Now, you have logic to back up your point, but I dont accept it as it does not cover all the context.

At the same time, you will never accept what I say either.

(It all goes down to the basic point of fiqh, where you either accept "everything is allowed unless forbidden" or you follow "evreything is forbidden unless it is allowed". AFAIK the hanafi view is the former except for creating new commandments and prohibitions.)

You will talk down scholars you dont agree with and support to the end those that you do, even though both will use evidnence from the qur'an and sunnah.

See, there is a dispute in context and logic.

I will never accept your postion and you will never accept mine as we prefer different interpretations and scholars who have different interpretations.

 

friday is a weekly eid it is different to the other 2 eids are you gonna celebrate friday eid once a year?

no for its a different type of eid compared to the other 2 which are yearly eid, plus the friday eid and the 2 eids have some similiraties but also have differences we do it in 2 different ways

when the articles say only 2 eids they are reffering to yearly celebration now rasulullah saw said in the hadith we have replaced these celebration with 2 eids, so are you trying to say rasulullah saw was wrong when he didnt include friday here? are you trying to say rasulullah saw is unaware of friday eid of course not he didnt mention that because the eid of friday is different to the other 2, weekly and yearly, and have different features, on yearly eid people visit relatives do they do that on every friday? no for that is a feature of yearly eid not the weekly eid, in the weekly eid we have a fardh salah jummuah, is their any fardh salah in the yearly eids no, because that is not part of the yearly eids, the 2 different types of eids (weekly friday and the 2 yearly) have different features in them they are not the same

hanafi fiqh is the ruling of abu hanifa rh which he thought were the official rulings made by muhammad saw

if you havent noticed even nonmuslims say theirs orthodox muslims the sunnis, then their are sufis a different branch, even they know whos right and whos wrong

You wrote:

as for the hadith again here is what the hadith states The Messenger of Allaah

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

said: 'Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his

own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him

tell me where does it say whoever innovated a new sunnah or innovates a new thing in the religion of islam, it says starts a good thing,

You do realise that starting a new good deed that is copied is the starting a new sunnah? Pretendingthem to be different is a play on words.

if someone says start a race what does it mean, it means you start a race, a race that has already been established and exists, you cant start a race by innovating it, it has to be one that is already their and you are now starting that very race, however if someone says innovate a race then it means you innovate something new, again start a race innovate a race to different things, so again if you know some arabic then read it in arabic and youll understand it better

Quote:

Just like sometimes the arabic word yafrahoo is translated to "make mery" or "celebrate", the two are different translations of the same word.

In the same way an action that is copied is a tradition,  a sunnah. Not the sunnah of the prophet (unless it was done at the time of the prophet, the prophet was present or addressed the issue in a non negative way) but a sunnah. Or an alternative translation of the same would be bid'ah.

start and innovate have 2 different meaning lets see what oxford dictionary says regarding the 2

start means begin or be reckoned from a particular point in time or space

the season starts in September we ate before the film started below Roaring Springs the real desert starts

innvoation a new method, idea, product, etc.: technological innovations designed to save energy

as you can see the 2 have completely different meanings both in arabic and in english

Quote:

So you could also translate the same hadith as "whoever starts a good bid'ah and it is followed by others"

These are all correct translations of the arabic and your position is hiding behind translations.

 

here is sahih muslim in arabic and english

http://ia601607.us.archive.org/16/items/SahihMuslim7Vol.Set/SahihMuslimV...

tell me if the hadith even mentions the word bidah

its in page 51

as i said is the word yahrafoo or bidah or bidah hasanah mentioned

Quote:

Otherwise, you posting on these forums is a bid'ah, it is a religious type of posting as you are attempting da'wah, but according to your views such things are not permissible because you cannot do a new religious thing, like you cannot read nafl as part of mawlid celebrations, you cannot post online for religious purposes as both are putting old actions in context of the new. Except that I argue the issue of mawlid is from qur'an and sunnah (where you even accept one hadith about the prophet fasting) where God sents his peace upon a prophet on the day of his birth. The internet for Islamic propagation however... where is the evidence allowing that? (and make sure the evidence then doesnt allow other things you forbid, as I suspect it is a catch 22 situation for you)

the angels bowed down to aadam as when he was created a act far more superior then getting a salam, for the bow was ordered by allah, now are you going to create a celebration and mawlid for that aswell,

in rasulullah saw they wrote letters for the purpose of dawah, today its forum, its the same thing just in a different format, any other bidah i do you want to mention? 

allah also sends his blessing to ever new born so again are gonna do a mawlid for them aswell

allah sending a sallam to muhammad saw when he was born being the reason to celebrate mawlid is like me saying the aadam as scenario as valid to celebrate his birth, these are 2 completely different issues where did allah say so celebrate his mawlid because of these 2 reasons

 

You wrote:

so these are the words of muhammad saw 2 eid a year friday is different type of eid it is weekly and has different attributes

so muhammad saw rejected the bidah of another celebration

your quotes do not support your views.

1. The quotes are about the greatnes s of the eids, but they do not refute other days.

and you mawlid is worse then the ones muhammad saw rejected for that is a copy of christman even worse

2. Not at all. But I wonder what your opinions are on the ashura.

yes it does he refused the celebration on any other things even if it wasnt religious just general and said all these have been replaced with these 2 eids

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Fasting the day of ‘Arafah I hope Allaah will expiate thereby for the year before it and the year after it, and fasting the day of ‘Ashoora’ I hope Allaah will expiate thereby for the year that came before it.” Narrated by Muslim, 1162. This is by the bounty that Allaah bestows upon us, whereby fasting one day expiates for the sins of a whole year. And Allaah is the Owner of great bounty. 

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to be very keen to make sure he fasted on the day of ‘Ashoora’ because of its great status. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I never saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) so keen to make sure he fasted any day and preferring it over another except this day, the day of ‘Ashoora’, and this month – meaning Ramadaan. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1867.

 

so like shia do you also beat yourself up on ashoora 

lets see christmas not in bible created by later christians, now mawlid not in quran hadith or first 3 generation created first by shia marketed by sufi wheres the difference?

abualabbasassaffah7 wrote:

so like shia do you also beat yourself up on ashoora 

 

erm...

 

the optional fast on two days either on the 9th and 10th or on the 1th and 11th. From hadith.

Ther prophet came across a JEWISH celebration, approved of it, said we had a greater right to it, so it was reccomended that Muslims fast two days instead of one.

It was a religious event. (lets ignore that Islam is a way of life for a second, and that the secular/religious separation is a western concoction, not an islamic one...). It shows if something good is seen, it can be copied as long as it does not lose Muslims their identity (in which case it should be sufficiently altered but the good is still allowed).

And the Prophet showed us this through the ashura.

On the issue of Eid of friday being weekly, I dont see why that matters - it is still eid. I dont say that mawlid should only be celebrated once a year. In fact celebrating it on a daily basis. or weekly basis - something that can directly proven as allowed through the fasting of the prophet every week.

But that doesnt stop the fact that you state "only two eids, but I will conveniently ignore the other one" and then take a slightly different meaning of the referenced material and get a stomach ache when people celebrate the birth of the prophet (saw), something that those who merely have a different understanding of the source evidence don't feel.

 

LOOK.

If either of you stop replying, we won't think either have you have given in. No, we will just think you have been wise enough to end this pointless debate. 

To everyone else, just because someone finally stops commenting, does not mean they don't have an answer. It just means they know they can't convince the other person, and are praying Allah guides them, as He guides us all. You do not have to believe the person who gets the last word, rather ask scholars, listen to talks, read books and make your own decision,

Now please, please please stop these "discussions".

You wrote:

abualabbasassaffah7 wrote:

so like shia do you also beat yourself up on ashoora 

 

erm...

 

the optional fast on two days either on the 9th and 10th or on the 1th and 11th. From hadith.

Ther prophet came across a JEWISH celebration, approved of it, said we had a greater right to it, so it was reccomended that Muslims fast two days instead of one.

It was a religious event. (lets ignore that Islam is a way of life for a second, and that the secular/religious separation is a western concoction, not an islamic one...). It shows if something good is seen, it can be copied as long as it does not lose Muslims their identity (in which case it should be sufficiently altered but the good is still allowed).

And the Prophet showed us this through the ashura.

On the issue of Eid of friday being weekly, I dont see why that matters - it is still eid. I dont say that mawlid should only be celebrated once a year. In fact celebrating it on a daily basis. or weekly basis - something that can directly proven as allowed through the fasting of the prophet every week.

But that doesnt stop the fact that you state "only two eids, but I will conveniently ignore the other one" and then take a slightly different meaning of the referenced material and get a stomach ache when people celebrate the birth of the prophet (saw), something that those who merely have a different understanding of the source evidence don't feel.

With regard to the reason why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fasted on the day of ‘Ashoora’ and urged the people to do likewise is mentioned in the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (1865) from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Madeenah and saw the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said, “What is this?” They said, “This is a good day, this is the day when Allaah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Moosa fasted on this day.” He said, “We are closer to Moosa than you.” So he fasted on this day and told the people to fast. 

The words “this is a good day” – according to a version narrated by Muslim, “This is a great day when Allaah saved Moosa and his people and drowned Pharaoh and his people.” 

The words “so Moosa fasted on this day” – Muslim added in his report: “In gratitude to Allaah, so that is we fast on this day.” 

According to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “So we fast it out of respect for it.” 

The words “and told the people to fast” – according to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “He said to his companions, ‘You are closer to Moosa than them, so fast this day.”

so their are many reasons why muhammad saw fasted and none of the hadith state the reason you did but it states other reasons, what did muhammad saw say we have more right on this day then they have and then he revealed how muslims should act on ashoora, again the messenger of allah saw by the will of allah revealed this, did abu bakr ra or umar ra uthman ra ali ra do this no rasulullah saw did again this happened before allah declared this religion complete when new revelation in islam were still being revelaed either in quran or other ways

he did not because he muhammad saw innvoated something but done it by how allah willed, and he stated many reasons on why muslims should fast on that day not becasue muhammd saw saw them do it and thought it was a great idea but becasue of the reasons he stated,

 

such as musa as did so should we, again where does your reason come in here? muhammad saw is saying musa as did thats why we should do it this way, he is saying it was a great day and victory of musa as thats why we should do it you give another reason why, muhammad saw says this you say something else, i say to you why is it that when muhamamd saw tells us to do something for a reason rather then accepting why he ordered us to do it you create something else do you have a problem with the reason muhammad saw gave, are they not good enough? or you think you are too good to find these reasons to eb the reason why you should do this and need a better reason

 

now regarding eid

so eiduladha is on tuesday you will do jummuah because what difference does it make tis still eid right, friday eid, and eidul adha whats the difference their both eid so we can mix thigns up right?

 

so im guessing if eid is on tuesday you do jummuah because it is still eid

With regard to the reason why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fasted on the day of ‘Ashoora’ and urged the people to do likewise is mentioned in the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (1865) from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Madeenah and saw the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said, “What is this?” They said, “This is a good day, this is the day when Allaah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Moosa fasted on this day.” He said, “We are closer to Moosa than you.” So he fasted on this day and told the people to fast.

The words “this is a good day” – according to a version narrated by Muslim, “This is a great day when Allaah saved Moosa and his people and drowned Pharaoh and his people.”

The words “so Moosa fasted on this day” – Muslim added in his report: “In gratitude to Allaah, so that is we fast on this day.”

According to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “So we fast it out of respect for it.”

The words “and told the people to fast” – according to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “He said to his companions, ‘You are closer to Moosa than them, so fast this day.”

You do realise that you are supporting what I say?

The event was a JEWISH event, one that existed before Islam. IE its copying the people of the book. But as it was seen as a good thing, it was adopted, by none other than the prophet (saw). This is totally in counter to everything you have argued previously as according to you adopting any event that is similar to a non Muslim event (let alone a non Muslim RELIGIOUS event), "we cannot adopt it as it is copying the kuffaar"

I am mentioning this event to show how your understanding of this issue is not complete as you cannot ignore such sunnahs when making your views on other things.

now regarding eid

so eiduladha is on tuesday you will do jummuah because what difference does it make tis still eid right, friday eid, and eidul adha whats the difference their both eid so we can mix thigns up right?

so im guessing if eid is on tuesday you do jummuah because it is still eid

You are confused and making no sense. I suspect this is because the laogic you have employed previously has been found to be flawed so you are left with making moronic arguments. Even the two eids have different traditions and their own thing is done on each day. One one it is preferrable to wait til after the eid prayer before eating (though it is not forbidden or even discouraged). On the other, it isn't.

In the same way you do what you do on jumu'ah on friday, what you do on eid fitr on eid fitr, what you do on eid ul adha on eid ul adha.

TPOS wrote:

LOOK.

If either of you stop replying, we won't think either have you have given in. No, we will just think you have been wise enough to end this pointless debate.

I'#ve offered that option countless times - I have offered to him he will never leave what his scholars say even if provided with proof to the contrary and I spend loads of days simply restating that instead of answering his accusations. That was me being amicable. But when he keeps making his assertions it is required to provide the other side in order to not make those reading on (maybe not today, not tomorrow, but in 6 months time) not think that maybe there was no reply to the accusations as none was given.

But when someone keeps on ignoring it and keeps adding to religion by adding new prohibitions, it becomes necessary to refute his points.

I am willing to accept there there his scholars have a diferent opinion. I am willing to allow them their ways. But if it is constantly posted that that is the only way, someone needs to provide the alternative truth otherwise he will post "we follow the salaf, you follownew made up ways" and the qur'an and sunnah evidence proving that assertion wrong is hidden from public sight.

(Actually chances are that I will get bored.)

so their are many reasons why muhammad saw fasted and none of the hadith state the reason you did but it states other reasons

Interesting.

I thought it was you who mentioned that the reason mentioned in the hadith itself was because that was the day the prophet was born. Whenever i have heard that hadith, it has been the given reply not by the commentator but by the prophet in the actual hadith.

Please confirm that the prophet did NOT mention that that was the day he was born?

A quick google says:

Abu Qatada al-Ansari narrates in Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-siyam, that the Prophet (S.A.W) was asked about the fast of Monday, and he answered: "That is the day that I was born and that is the day I received the prophecy."

So it seems that the bit I quoted you saying is in error and not firm with the contents of the hadith from Sahih Muslim.

The prophet DID state that it was because it was the day he was born.

...to conclude before hijaab as revealed umar ra once said to the wives of muhammad to cover themselves but they disagreed, so allah then revealed in the quran they have to, again does this mean umar ra innvoated the concept of hijaab?

Was something new presented? yes. Was it novel enough for it to require revelation? Yes. Is it now part of Islam? yes.

See, that is exactly what I have been saying. The sahabah would do new things based on their judgment and logic. When this was approved of by the prophet or through revelation (or even by silence of the prophet if it was done ot mentioned infront of the prophet (saw)), it stopped being a new idea or invention or judgement, but became allowed, reccomended or even commanded.

And that is a fundamental - not ALL new things are bad. If that was the case, the sahabahs would not be able to make judgment calls that were then approved. The command would necessarily have to be revealed before an act was done. But that is now how Islam was revealed, showing that the idea of innovation has more context to it than you suggest.

You wrote:

With regard to the reason why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fasted on the day of ‘Ashoora’ and urged the people to do likewise is mentioned in the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (1865) from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Madeenah and saw the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said, “What is this?” They said, “This is a good day, this is the day when Allaah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Moosa fasted on this day.” He said, “We are closer to Moosa than you.” So he fasted on this day and told the people to fast.

The words “this is a good day” – according to a version narrated by Muslim, “This is a great day when Allaah saved Moosa and his people and drowned Pharaoh and his people.”

The words “so Moosa fasted on this day” – Muslim added in his report: “In gratitude to Allaah, so that is we fast on this day.”

According to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “So we fast it out of respect for it.”

The words “and told the people to fast” – according to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “He said to his companions, ‘You are closer to Moosa than them, so fast this day.”

You do realise that you are supporting what I say?

no you said muhammad saw saw the jews fasting and he got a new idea from them and then copied them into innovating or revealing this action, im saying he did it for those reason so if your view includes what you said now then theirs no problem hoever if it includes this then their is a problem

Quote:

The event was a JEWISH event, one that existed before Islam. IE its copying the people of the book. But as it was seen as a good thing, it was adopted, by none other than the prophet (saw). This is totally in counter to everything you have argued previously as according to you adopting any event that is similar to a non Muslim event (let alone a non Muslim RELIGIOUS event), "we cannot adopt it as it is copying the kuffaar"

the christian have sundays jews have saturday, so again we have friday, now was the idea of friday copied from them no for the day of friday was special to us far before the 2 existed, same with ashoora this day was special for us long before the jews and christians existed as i mentioned musa as used fast on this day, was musa as a jew, no a muslim so we muslims have been fasting on this day before they have muhamamd saw reivved it, he did not copy the jews and reveal this but rather he said musa as did this before they did so we have more right on this then they have no different to friday they had saturday the jews, but islam already made friday special before this, now if you claim we copied their concept in this thena gain you have  a messed up view here, for these are not copied action but rather renewed or revived actions, again bible says marrying cousins is allowed and quran says this so did allah copy the bible? no of course not for the bible originally belonged to muslims and this was part of islam before this so islam didnt copy bible in this but it was ourrs to start with allah then revealed it again, same here this was ours to begin with then they used it and allah revealed its reality again to us and we know its our practice

 

so you are saying this existed before islam so musa as was a jew? since this existed before islam, now according to you aadam was not muslim either then what was he? since this existed before islam

this fasting of ashura according to my islam was done by musa as and he was a muslim and when islam was revivied by muhammad saw this action was revealed by allah and muhammad saw revived it with a new change this time to make it a bit different and to show it means mroe to us and our practice is bettter then theirs

you obviously have to get your wordings correct dont you or you put yourself in messes like this

i never said any event similar to nonmuslim is harram, your putting words in my mouth again, im saying mawlid is a innvation like christmas and islam is agains tthis as the hadith of muhammad saw showed of not imitating christians, second i said their is not quran or hadith that mentions mawlid or any celebration like this, 2 we dont copy kuffar, are you gonna go celebrate christmas, oh yeah i forgot your sufi schoalrs are arleady commiting this shirk and claim it is halal so im guessing you agree with this aswell?

Quote:

I am mentioning this event to show how your understanding of this issue is not complete as you cannot ignore such sunnahs when making your views on other things.

now regarding eid

so eiduladha is on tuesday you will do jummuah because what difference does it make tis still eid right, friday eid, and eidul adha whats the difference their both eid so we can mix thigns up right?

so im guessing if eid is on tuesday you do jummuah because it is still eid

You are confused and making no sense. I suspect this is because the laogic you have employed previously has been found to be flawed so you are left with making moronic arguments. Even the two eids have different traditions and their own thing is done on each day. One one it is preferrable to wait til after the eid prayer before eating (though it is not forbidden or even discouraged). On the other, it isn't.

In the same way you do what you do on jumu'ah on friday, what you do on eid fitr on eid fitr, what you do on eid ul adha on eid ul adha.

 

let me tell you what incomplete was your knowledge of salatul duha

you cant even show a single ahdith to prove even this point of yours for you do actions opposite the hadith, so now according ot you copying jews and creating new thign sis a sunnha?

some view you have you are now becoming a muslim version of guru nanak taking things from other religion and adding it to islam

of course it does you said in your last post "it doenst make no difference to me for it is still eid" so the statement above is according to this comment of yours

as i said you really need to get your wordings correct, now your saying this, and first you said that, you obviously have to think before you speak again otherwise you put yourself in embarassing situation like this, so again atleast this is between muslims, if youwere up against a nonmuslim they wouldve ripped you apart for the amount of errors and msitakes you made in some posts

as mentioned we celebrate jummuah eid and the other eids different way for they have different features in them

You wrote:

so their are many reasons why muhammad saw fasted and none of the hadith state the reason you did but it states other reasons

Interesting.

I thought it was you who mentioned that the reason mentioned in the hadith itself was because that was the day the prophet was born. Whenever i have heard that hadith, it has been the given reply not by the commentator but by the prophet in the actual hadith.

im referring to ashoora fast here not mawlid, so now you have gone to the level of twisting my own posts and try to confuse me? this commen tis in the same page as this and obviously i'll know my own posts and not fall for something like this, again why put yourself in these situations?

Quote:

Please confirm that the prophet did NOT mention that that was the day he was born?

im not refering to the day but the date he was born

Quote:

A quick google says:

Abu Qatada al-Ansari narrates in Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-siyam, that the Prophet (S.A.W) was asked about the fast of Monday, and he answered: "That is the day that I was born and that is the day I received the prophecy."

i am aware of this i posted this hadith about a 100 times already, again im referring to the date not day, when i say day i mean the actualy 12th not day of the week, if that was the case why would i post that hadith

Quote:

So it seems that the bit I quoted you saying is in error and not firm with the contents of the hadith from Sahih Muslim.

The prophet DID state that it was because it was the day he was born.

...to conclude before hijaab as revealed umar ra once said to the wives of muhammad to cover themselves but they disagreed, so allah then revealed in the quran they have to, again does this mean umar ra innvoated the concept of hijaab?

Was something new presented? yes. Was it novel enough for it to require revelation? Yes. Is it now part of Islam? yes.

See, that is exactly what I have been saying. The sahabah would do new things based on their judgment and logic. When this was approved of by the prophet or through revelation (or even by silence of the prophet if it was done ot mentioned infront of the prophet (saw)), it stopped being a new idea or invention or judgement, but became allowed, reccomended or even commanded.

And that is a fundamental - not ALL new things are bad. If that was the case, the sahabahs would not be able to make judgment calls that were then approved. The command would necessarily have to be revealed before an act was done. But that is now how Islam was revealed, showing that the idea of innovation has more context to it than you suggest.

i know that already go to my previous posts in other threads in which i already talked about this in that post i said this:

What has been

reported is that the Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made the day of

his birth a day of worship, which is different to celebration. He was asked about fasting

on Mondays, and he said: “That is the day on which I was born and the day on which I

was entrusted with the Mission or when I was first given Revelation.” (Reported

by Muslim, al-Nisaa’i and Abu Dawood).

and  i linked this

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/249

again i ask you do you even read my posts for again if you did then you again wouldve not put yourself in this embarasing situation for yourself for i ahve already talked about this

fasting because he was born on that day and celebrating is 2 different things, we do hajj but do we have a celebration for this on another day not, same with ramadan we fast it but dont a have a celebration for this on another day, now for this muhammad saw fasted every monday but he didnt celebrate it, he did not fast on mawlid day every year, or cleebrate this day every year he jsut fasted on monday again 2 diferent things like the example above

 

so now youare saying this hijab becision was not allah's decision but it was umar ra decision? it was a innovation by uamr ra

 

again umar ra didnt innvoate hijab allah revelaed it he made a sugestion that can this be done did umar ra declare from today all women wear hijab no he said i hope something like this happends and allah accepted it, so again this shows how you have twsited this matter, if i make a dua to allah and it gets accepted i didnt amek ti happen allah did, same here umar ra hoped this to happen and allah accepted it hut he didnt innvoate it, this is how all sahaba ra scenario was they only made sugestions but decision wasnt even upto muhammad saw but to allah and with allah's guidance muhammad saw decided so again this view of yours obviously needs some more research

at this very moment you are turning islam from allah to man made religion

second when islam wasnt compelte sahaba ra if ina difficult situation they didnt have muhamamd saw with them then for emergecy they would do somethign then ask muhammad saw are we correct or wrong and if correct muhammad saw would say yes if wrong he would say no again noit innovation however afte rthe death of muhammad saw if a sahaba ra didnt hzav e knowledge and he was in same scenario he would do the same but ask someone of knowledge were we correct adn what would the sahaba ra respond they would either quote quran or hadith and base it upon that and confirm if it was wrong or not, they would not innovate and say yes its wrong or right they would base it upon quran and hadith did the 4 imams make things without use of quran hadith not that would always be the main source

 

well for your sufi saints it is their dream

On the hadith about Ruqya, the prophet was a part of the expedition.

The sahabahs still acted of their own judgement. Later when a dispute arose over permissibility, it was taken to the prophet (saw).

They did NOT ask the Prophet before carrying out the act according to their judgment.

Beyond this, the prophet often consulted with the sahabahs and encouraged consultation. If these consultations ever were heading towards the not-most-excellent solution, then often there would be revelation to overrule. The point here being that once again, the revelation came after, not before.

If God had wished, the Qur'an would have been revealed as a physical book in one go. Instead it was revealed piecemeal over 23 years where what was relevant to the time and addressed current issues was revealed.

no you said muhammad saw saw the jews fasting and he got a new idea from them and then copied them into innovating or revealing this action, im saying he did it for those reason so if your view includes what you said now then theirs no problem hoever if it includes this then their is a problem

Confusing phrasing, but from what I understand what you are trying to say... I have never suggested that the prophet did it with an intention to copy them or anything like that. He was presented with an act he approved of. He then adopted it for Muslims. That does not mean there was no historical relevance or that we do not accept Prophet Musa (as).

We accept the history and Prophet Musa (as) is our prophet. But that does not change that this event was marked by the Jews and the Muslims only started to mark it after noting the Jews marking it and the prophet approving of it.

...4 imams make things without use of quran hadith not that would always be the main source

I am not suggesting that anything is without the use of the Qur'an and hadith. Even Mawlid uses qur'an and hadith in its support. The only difference is that you deny that evidence, even going to the extent of hiding a part of the hadith where the prophet mentions the reasons for fasting.

Then again, you ignore the place where Hadhrat Umar (ra) stopped giving alms to a tribe that the prophet gave alms to (which on the face of it is different to the qur'an and sunnah,but the Muslims agreed on the context and reasoning), the adoption of import duty (which was an alien concept), the changing of land tax by Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, the appointment of people to power by Caliph Uthmaan (ra) that had previously been kept away, the appointment and the succession of the caliphs. So you are not consistent on the matter and are making attacks on "sufis" with baseless accusations, especially as the events you disprove of are based in the qur'an and sunnah.

Here, if an explanation is offered by the prophet (saw), why hide it in favour of other later scholars opinions?

Does not make sense

the christian have sundays jews have saturday, so again we have friday, now was the idea of friday copied from them no for the day of friday was special to us far before the 2 existed

I have not looked into when Friday was made special for Muslims, but I doubt it will support your position on bid'ah or even on fridays being Eid.

Your last argument was that while friday was an eid, it was different from the other two eids, so they cannot be considered the same. To which I agreed and add that in the same sense the Mawlid of the Prophet can be called an eid, but is not the same as the other two eids.

im referring to ashoora fast here not mawlid, so now you have gone to the level of twisting my own posts and try to confuse me? this commen tis in the same page as this and obviously i'll know my own posts and not fall for something like this, again why put yourself in these situations?

twisting. I see you have a high opinion of me. I dont need to twist. "ignore the hadith that mentions birth of the prophet and find me some other qur'an or sunnah evidence" (though i did that too. In Surah Maryam, AFAIK to Prophet Yunus (as) it is mentioned "peace be upon you on the day of your birth and on the day of your demise" showing how they are special occasions.)

I did say I was confused. Which I was as on Mawlid you had atleast hinted to being aware of the full text previously.

But on the issue of Ashura, you still cannot deny the chronology. The Muslim acceptance of Ashura only happened after becoming aware of the Jews marking it, which the prophet then approved for Muslims. I am not for one moment suggesting that the prophet was trying to make us adopt or copy another religion. What I am saying is that this event shows that if something is good, we can adopt it, even if its not Muslims doing it first.

i am aware of this i posted this hadith about a 100 times already, again im referring to the date not day, when i say day i mean the actualy 12th not day of the week, if that was the case why would i post that hadith

Why is the day important? I do not limit the celebration of mawlid to a single day.

The only reason it is common to a single day or a single period of the year is because people are forgetful but when context arrives (oh yeah, this was around the time...), they remember and focus. Mawlid can be celebrated any day, any time as long as it is done through means and ibadat that are allowed in Islam.

I know people who celebrate the Mawlid with a weekly event. Here you cannot even argue the "annualness" of it all. Others have a mawlid mehfil randomly with no set times or schedule.

Once again complying with "proclaim and celebrate" the blessings and mercies that we have been bestowed with.

I assume you agree with and approve of these last two groups of people as they are acting in accordance to the hadith you quoted?

Doing it one day a year can also be allowed - be it 12th or other day (as other traditions put the mawlid at different dates), because the 2 eids and ramadan and other significant events show how it is approved that things can be done on an annual basis. But that is not an important issue - if you agree to it being celebrated the rest of the year, especially on a weekly basis in accordance to how the prophet used to fast, I can live with that.

(the qur'an when it commands to proclaim the favours and mercies from God and celebrate/make merry doesnt put a limit on it. it does not say do it once, twice, daily weekly, annually. That is left to us. )

so now youare saying this hijab becision was not allah's decision but it was umar ra decision? it was a innovation by uamr ra

Pretty much your assertion, but the command was made after the suggestion, so what this once again shows is that the sahabahs were allowed to make their own judgments and sometimes there would be revelation either in support or against it. If on the other hand personal judgement was not allowed, Hadhrat Umar (ra) would not have made his suggestion. He would not be allowed to by your rules as the command in the Qur'an MUST come first in that case.

You wrote:

On the hadith about Ruqya, the prophet was a part of the expedition.

The sahabahs still acted of their own judgement. Later when a dispute arose over permissibility, it was taken to the prophet (saw).

They did NOT ask the Prophet before carrying out the act according to their judgment.

Beyond this, the prophet often consulted with the sahabahs and encouraged consultation. If these consultations ever were heading towards the not-most-excellent solution, then often there would be revelation to overrule. The point here being that once again, the revelation came after, not before.

If God had wished, the Qur'an would have been revealed as a physical book in one go. Instead it was revealed piecemeal over 23 years where what was relevant to the time and addressed current issues was revealed. 

they did that at the time out of emergerncy becasue they had to, if a man was stuck in a island, and saw a new food, he wouldnt be aware if this is halal so he will guess with his current knowledge and then he will try to find out what the reailty is when he is out of their and then he can ask a schoalr if such food is halal or harram, this matter is not a case of bidah

but something different

this does not prove your bidah matter, rather acting in emergency situation and then finding out if its right or not, how is this bidah liek the example of the man stuck in the island, bidah in religion and coming in a new situation is different, if a men dsicovers a new country that doesnt mean this is a new innvoation in islam, if someone claims their is hadith or islam  says a new coutnry will be discovere dthen this is a bidah

so sahaba ra not asking muhammad saw later after they made their judgement is no different to the man of the island obviously they had to do something at the time

another example is sahaba ra stuck in the island and ate a type of fish later they came to muhamamd saw and told them this and he saw said this is fish was from allah

in regards to muhammad saw asking sahaba ra this was in general matters and even if it was related islam then again after they gave their sugestion muhamamd saw would then get revelation from allah what is to be done, so revelation from allah again was used not innovation, allah revelaing not muslims innvoating things

muhammad saw also askeed umm salamah ra to give him advise but this was not bidah in religion

 

whether revelation came after or before in the end allah would decide what the matter should be wrong right halal harram

Quote:

no you said muhammad saw saw the jews fasting and he got a new idea from them and then copied them into innovating or revealing this action, im saying he did it for those reason so if your view includes what you said now then theirs no problem hoever if it includes this then their is a problem

Confusing phrasing, but from what I understand what you are trying to say... I have never suggested that the prophet did it with an intention to copy them or anything like that. He was presented with an act he approved of. He then adopted it for Muslims. That does not mean there was no historical relevance or that we do not accept Prophet Musa (as).

We accept the history and Prophet Musa (as) is our prophet. But that does not change that this event was marked by the Jews and the Muslims only started to mark it after noting the Jews marking it and the prophet approving of it.

of course you did even now your saying it, muhamamd saw saw jews and took it from them and accepted it in islam

look at you you would rather copy the jews then the prophet, this shows you would rather imitate the kafoir then a prohpet of the previous nations, some rulings from the previous ummah are the same as this ummah but their is no ruligns take from other religions in this ummah for islam is islam, our religion is always from allah and the guidance of his prophets as saw, never from monmuslims

again muhammad saw himself stated in hadith which i ahve stated below that he is doing this becasue of the reasons stated in hadith no where in the hadith your reason is stated

this religion is absed on quran and hadith not what you claim this religion is not based on your mentality, but what allah ahs revelaed and his prophets have so again quran and sunnah not quran and what you claim

the hadith states he muhamamd saw saw the jews do a act and he revelaed that this act belongs to muslims not them and he told them to do it like this, again not what you claim, he didnt approve this form jew but said muslims in the apst did it so we too should do it

Quote:

...4 imams make things without use of quran hadith not that would always be the main source

I am not suggesting that anything is without the use of the Qur'an and hadith. Even Mawlid uses qur'an and hadith in its support. The only difference is that you deny that evidence, even going to the extent of hiding a part of the hadith where the prophet mentions the reasons for fasting.

so far you failed to give any evidence, yoru evidence are thigns like sending sallam, but allah also sent sallam to khadija ra doesnt mean we celebrate this so dont give me sallam and blessing from allah, allah also says trees are blessing so wil lyou celebrate the trees

again proper evidence

Quote:

Then again, you ignore the place where Hadhrat Umar (ra) stopped giving alms to a tribe that the prophet gave alms to (which on the face of it is different to the qur'an and sunnah,but the Muslims agreed on the context and reasoning), the adoption of import duty (which was an alien concept), the changing of land tax by Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, the appointment of people to power by Caliph Uthmaan (ra) that had previously been kept away, the appointment and the succession of the caliphs. So you are not consistent on the matter and are making attacks on "sufis" with baseless accusations, especially as the events you disprove of are based in the qur'an and sunnah.

Here, if an explanation is offered by the prophet (saw), why hide it in favour of other later scholars opinions?

 

which tribe their were many tribes which tribe did he stop giving it to

 

Quote:

Does not make sense

the christian have sundays jews have saturday, so again we have friday, now was the idea of friday copied from them no for the day of friday was special to us far before the 2 existed

I have not looked into when Friday was made special for Muslims, but I doubt it will support your position on bid'ah or even on fridays being Eid.

the only thing it wil lprove is your logic is wrong which is muslims copied it from kafirs, the reason why friday is special is liste ddown below

as you will see on those reasons liek musa as and ashoora when friday was made special it was due to allah making it special not because we got a new idea from jews and copied it, liek ashoora muhammad saw is clearly saying we fast on this day because:

The words “this is a good day” – according to a version narrated by Muslim, “This is a great day when Allaah saved Moosa and his people and drowned Pharaoh and his people.” 

The words “so Moosa fasted on this day” – Muslim added in his report: “In gratitude to Allaah, so that is we fast on this day.” 

According to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “So we fast it out of respect for it.” 

The words “and told the people to fast” – according to another version narrated by al-Bukhaari, “He said to his companions, ‘You are closer to Moosa than them, so fast this day.”

so tell me where does your logic fit in here muhammad saw has already given the reason why we muslims fast on this day where did your reason come from?

are you trying to say you know a reason why we fast on this day and muhammad saw did not know this day because he didnt have that knowledge? their is no hadith which state muhammad swa did this to copy the jews rather he said becasue we hae mroe right on this, musa as fasted on this day thats why, so how can muhammad saw copy jews when he is saying himself musa as used to fast on this day, so he copying musa as is valid as this was truly done by musa as but to say he copied jews is something else

friday is special for many reason one of the reason is

It was narrated from Aws ibn Aws that the Prophet (peace and blessings

of Allaah be upon

him) said: “The best of your days is Friday. On that day Adam (peace

be upon him) was created; on that day he died; on that day the Trumpet

will

be blown; and on that day all of creation will swoon. So send a

great deal of blessings upon me, for your blessings will be shown to

me.” They

said, “O Messenger of Allaah, how will our blessings upon you be

shown to you when you have turned to dust?” He said, “Allaah has

forbidden the

earth to consume the bodies of the Prophets, peace be upon them.”

for more info

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/13815

 

Quote:

Your last argument was that while friday was an eid, it was different from the other two eids, so they cannot be considered the same. To which I agreed and add that in the same sense the Mawlid of the Prophet can be called an eid, but is not the same as the other two eids.

 

that arguments was refering to how to celebrate it in whcih you said i dont care its still the same, but now that your saying this atleast that issue is done if you mean it, in regards to mawlid mawlid is not like those 3 for unlike those  eids, mawlid is not from quran and hadith, it is not part of islam did muhamamd saw ever celebrate mawlid like he did the 2 eids and friday, again show me a hadith in which muhamamd saw and his sahaba ra are celebrating mawlid, i dont want any allah sending sallam blessing or anyhting, i want proper hadith in which they are having a feast, or gathering or anything like that like they did in 2 eids or shouting takbir in the amrket because it is the eid of friday like this, show me muhammad saw and his sahaba ra doing this on mawlid

so mawlid is not like them for it was never done by muhamamd saw and his companions or even during the error of the last and 6th rightly guided caliph umar ibn abdul aziz rh

Quote:

im referring to ashoora fast here not mawlid, so now you have gone to the level of twisting my own posts and try to confuse me? this commen tis in the same page as this and obviously i'll know my own posts and not fall for something like this, again why put yourself in these situations?

 

twisting. I see you have a high opinion of me. I dont need to twist. "ignore the hadith that mentions birth of the prophet and find me some other qur'an or sunnah evidence" (though i did that too. In Surah Maryam, AFAIK to Prophet Yunus (as) it is mentioned "peace be upon you on the day of your birth and on the day of your demise" showing how they are special occasions.)

I did say I was confused. Which I was as on Mawlid you had atleast hinted to being aware of the full text previously.

you said you are confused now not then when you made that claim if im wrong correct me

hadith of muhammad saw also states allah sends sallam to khadija ra so do you have a mawlid or celebration for that aswell or a new eid for that aswell

so again you showed no evidence form quran and hadith, allah sending sallam doesnt mean you celebrate if thats the case celebrate the khadija ra scenario aswell, or when a new born baby is born allah always sends his blessing to the new born child celebrate them aswell, when a new palnt is planted that to ois a blessing of allah do the mawlid for that palnt aswell

so now are you gonna create a enw eid for the plant you planted in your garden because that too is a blessing of allah which should be celebrated according to your posts

 

Quote:

But on the issue of Ashura, you still cannot deny the chronology. The Muslim acceptance of Ashura only happened after becoming aware of the Jews marking it, which the prophet then approved for Muslims. I am not for one moment suggesting that the prophet was trying to make us adopt or copy another religion. What I am saying is that this event shows that if something is good, we can adopt it, even if its not Muslims doing it first.

ashura matter is sinmple it wsa part of the religion befor ethe revival of islam and it was revived during era of muhamamd saw he stated the reasons why fasts on that day and it is not what you claim your reason is a new lie created by you and your people, infact you claim muhamamd saw copied a jew

when rasulullahs aw saw the jews doing this he didnt do it because jew were doing it rathe rbecause allah at that point revelaed this new action for muslims to do meaning allah had revived this actions for muslims on that day, again during muhammad saw time the practice of circling the kaaba was done by the idol worshipper soa ccording to you the tawaaf was copied from the idol worshipeprs, so now islams tawaaf is from idol worshippers

 

so let me guess now youll say yes islam has things based on idol worshippers? such as tawaaf 7 times is from idol worsippers the idol worshippers also prayed facing kaaba so islam doign this is absed on them according to you

if you look at how christians and jew truly pray its like we  muslims do again im guessing muhamamd saw copied them when he did salah he saw their way and copied it right?

 

so no you have to the level in making their claim true islam copied chrisitanity and jew

well this shows if your way was correct then christians and jews would exposed islam abdly by now but with the blessing of allah its not your way

Quote:

 

i am aware of this i posted this hadith about a 100 times already, again im referring to the date not day, when i say day i mean the actualy 12th not day of the week, if that was the case why would i post that hadith

Why is the day important? I do not limit the celebration of mawlid to a single day.

The only reason it is common to a single day or a single period of the year is because people are forgetful but when context arrives (oh yeah, this was around the time...), they remember and focus. Mawlid can be celebrated any day, any time as long as it is done through means and ibadat that are allowed in Islam. 

because it is agaisnt islam its simple

mawlid is not a thing to celebrate it never was, it is a new introduction to the religion jsut like how christians change their bible every year, again more similarities between christianity and sufism

mawlid is not part of islam, whetehr weekly yearly or ocne in 10 years its not part of islam it was created by shais and promoted by sufis

http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/8098-the-birth-date-of-the-proph...

Quote:

I know people who celebrate the Mawlid with a weekly event. Here you cannot even argue the "annualness" of it all. Others have a mawlid mehfil randomly with no set times or schedule.

their knowledge regading this is weak like you

Quote:

Once again complying with "proclaim and celebrate" the blessings and mercies that we have been bestowed with.

I assume you agree with and approve of these last two groups of people as they are acting in accordance to the hadith you quoted?

Doing it one day a year can also be allowed - be it 12th or other day (as other traditions put the mawlid at different dates), because the 2 eids and ramadan and other significant events show how it is approved that things can be done on an annual basis. But that is not an important issue - if you agree to it being celebrated the rest of the year, especially on a weekly basis in accordance to how the prophet used to fast, I can live with that.

(the qur'an when it commands to proclaim the favours and mercies from God and celebrate/make merry doesnt put a limit on it. it does not say do it once, twice, daily weekly, annually. That is left to us. )

no their not if allah says fast on ramadan you cant say i'll fast for another month for if you can do it on ramadan why not in another month, muhammad saw said fast every monday not celebrate every week, these are 2 different things,again do not mix up 2 different acts praying fasting, reading quran, dhikr, jihad and celebrating are different, praying 5 times a day and celebrating 5 times a day are 2 compeltely different actions no different to how fasting once a week and celebrating ocne a week are different

again you are repating the same thing again, if thats the case allah also blesses the plants sky rain so make eid for all those things celebrate the eid plant, eid mother eid father eid tree milad e sky

do you have any celebration for those for according to your logic allah says celebrate every blessing of allah

Quote:

 

so now youare saying this hijab becision was not allah's decision but it was umar ra decision? it was a innovation by uamr ra

Pretty much your assertion, but the command was made after the suggestion, so what this once again shows is that the sahabahs were allowed to make their own judgments and sometimes there would be revelation either in support or against it. If on the other hand personal judgement was not allowed, Hadhrat Umar (ra) would not have made his suggestion. He would not be allowed to by your rules as the command in the Qur'an MUST come first in that case.

making sugestions and innovating and introducsing something in the religion is 2 compeltely different things

 

i think you should realise by now the difference of the 2

if i request something to be added and the leader decides to sue it then its one thing, but me creating something and jsut adding it is another

the first is a request or a sugestion made and it was accepted second was me innovating and adding something new

umar ra wa sa sugestion which was accepted by allah

now you when did allah reveal to you in the quran when you sugested mawlid that your allowed did you ask any prophet as saw that can i do this and they said yes do it, no for the prophets are dead and they cant respond now, and allah is not revealing any new verses as the quran has been completed so no new things can be added in religion but obviously your pirs get new revelations intheir dream so again more conbtradictions

this shows that sahaba ra were allowed to make sugestions not judgement that was upto allah

again sugestion vs judgement are 2 different things

my rules are based on islam as thats what i follow it is based on my view that shows islam allwoed sahaba ra to make sugestions and it was then decided by allah and his messenger saw, according to you they were allowed to innovate and add new thigns at their will, and because of that you too do the same thing which is against islam

this proves your whole point wrong rejection of bidah or sugestions after prophethood was over

Abdullah ibn Abbas (radi Allahu anhu) narrated: “We would come with

Abdullah ibn Masud to the Masjid. One day Abu Musa al-Ashari came,

looking worried, and asked whether Abu Abdur-Rehman (Ibn Masud) had come

out. We said ‘No,’ so he also sat waiting. When Ibn Masud came out Abu

Musa said, ‘Just now I saw an innovation but it looks good in seeing.’

Ibn Masud said, ‘What did you see?’ Abu Musa said, ‘I saw a group

sitting in a circle waiting for us. They had pebbles in their hands. In

every circle there was a man who said, ‘Say Takbeer one hundred times’

so they said Takbeer (Allahu Akbar) one hundred times. Then he said,

‘Say Tahleel one hundred times’ so they said Tahleel (Alhamdulillah) one

hundred times, and likewise they said Tasbeeh (SubhanAllah) one hundred

times.’ Ibn Masud said, ‘Then what did you say?’ Abu Musa said, ‘I did

not say anything and I waited for you.’”

“Whilst talking both

reached the Masjid and observed the recitation in the manner described

by Abu Musa. Addressing the people of one circle Ibn Masud asked, ‘What

is going on?’ They said, ‘These are pebbles and on them we are reciting

Takbeer, Tahleel and Tasbeeh of Allah.’ Ibn Masud said, ‘Instead of this

you better count your sins. I stand in surety that Allah will not allow

your virtues to go to waste. Alas O Ummah of Muhammad (sal Allahu

alaihi wa sallam), how soon you are spoiled. What a number of Sahabah

are still amongst you. The clothes of the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa

sallam) are still not worn out. The utensils he used are still intact.

And so you think that you are following a way which is better than the

Prophet’s and gives better guidance? Are you not opening a door of

deviation through this Bidah (innovation in religious matters)?’ The

people replied apologetically, ‘By Allah our Neeyah (intention) was

good.’ Ibn Masud said, ‘What a number of men there are that intend good

but never reach that good.’” [Narrated by Ad-Daarimee in As-Sunan]

 

Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) said, “This day have I perfected your religion

for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as

your religion.” [Quran 5:3]

 

the matter on ruqya sounds interesting hwo about telling me what happened their in full with reference

 

second you made a interesting point regarding salahuddin ayubi and the ottoman calipha, i'll discuss this matter later after this matter is done

 

i have a 3 volume book on salahuddin ayubi and know the ottoman history quite well

I am not going to respond to your whole post point by point.

I can see that you dont comprehend the impact of the actions in the life of the prophet in the in the same way I do.

For instance the Prophet consulting or the sahabahs using their own judgement to me shows how such things are allowed and as the prophet didnt have to consult or allow the sahabahs to exercise their own judgements, it was an exercise in teaching us that it is allowed.

Same with events after the prophet - the sahabahs did things that were new. Now I say that is an exercise in teaching us that it is allowed when done right. your response is that every time was a special case or a necessity of "not a religious matter" to which I obviously do not agree.

Your use of the verse about religion being completed is also without of the context of what happened later and is allowed and accepted.

We cannot add new commands and prohibitions,but apart from that quite a bit is allowed.

In the same way your mention of fasting and ramadan is flawed as you mention that the prophet warned against it. Now doing those act go against hadith. This is unlike Mawlid where there is no hadith suggesting that people do not celebrate.

On the issue of fasting, celebration etc, I hope you are concentrating on the meaning of what you write. The hadith shows that the event is notable and blessed. The Qur'an tells us to celebrate the blessings and mercies of the Lord.

Through mentioning the issue of Ahura (where you tried to "bash" me as a shia...) I have shown how even if you argue certain acts are from outside Islam, how the prophet showed we should deal with such things (ie adopt the good, ban the bad instead of a blanket bad) and this is how Muslims have generally acted as "Muslim culture" was not something revealed but the culture of whatever community that accepted Islam and removed the bits that were not in accordance with islam.

(Even with arab culture, the same was done to make it Islamic - keep the good, remove the bad).

Now I don't see how you can support your assertions without ignoring centuries of Muslim history, as new things were done that had religious significance and they were considered allowed.

mawlid is not part of islam, whetehr weekly yearly or ocne in 10 years its not part of islam it was created by shais and promoted by sufis

and this is what it boils down to. The above statement even rejects the hadith about the prophet fasting on mondays BECAUSE THAT WAS THE DAY HE WAS BORN.

You will stick to your points even if confronted with qur'an and sunnah, as that shows - you cannot accept things even when provided with uncontrovertible evidence.

I am sorry but when there is strong hadith evidence allowing it, then I will follow that instead of you.

making sugestions and innovating and introducsing something in the religion is 2 compeltely different things

Unless those suggestions are new and they do add something new that was not there before.

The sahabahs debated how to call people to prayer and considered many options from a bell (like christians) or a horn, but they were not liked. Then a sahabi had a dream with the Adhaan in it. This was liked and approved and we still do this.

However if they are then approved through revelation, or through the prophet (saw), they no longer remain new but become a part of Islam either as reccomendations or commands in the Qur'an or by becoming sunnah.

Please try to understand the process of how it all works, as when there was still revelation, the process was not needed (as everything could be addressed beforehand through revelation). Such processes where there to teach us, just like when the prophet asked the sahabah questions to which he already knew the answers.

abualabbasassaffah7 wrote:

the matter on ruqya sounds interesting hwo about telling me what happened their in full with reference

I was wrong with the messenger being present according to this googled translation from Sahih Bukhari. But it shows once again how it was NOT a case of necessity but the Sahabi used his own judgement:

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 633: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

Some of the companions of the Prophet passed by some people staying at a place where there was water, and one of those people had been stung by a scorpion. A man from those staying near the water, came and said to the companions of the Prophet, "Is there anyone among you who can do Ruqya as near the water there is a person who has been stung by a scorpion." So one of the Prophet's companions went to him and recited Surat-al-Fatiha for a sheep as his fees. The patient got cured and the man brought the sheep to his companions who disliked that and said, "You have taken wages for reciting Allah's Book." When they arrived at Medina, they said, ' O Allah's Apostle! (This person) has taken wages for reciting Allah's Book" On that Allah's Apostle said, "You are most entitled to take wages for doing a Ruqya with Allah's Book."

(btw, this is also the proof against those who say that only dodgy people charge...)

You wrote:

I am not going to respond to your whole post point by point.

I can see that you dont comprehend the impact of the actions in the life of the prophet in the in the same way I do.

no because i use the halal way you dont

Quote:

For instance the Prophet consulting or the sahabahs using their own judgement to me shows how such things are allowed and as the prophet didnt have to consult or allow the sahabahs to exercise their own judgements, it was an exercise in teaching us that it is allowed.

if i ask someone should i do this like this, or can i do this like this, this is called asking permission and that if this can be allowed or accepted, again this was before islam was declared compelte and that no new things should eb added, for muhamamd saw said in a hadith after my death new things will be added reject them for this is not part of my sunnah, so again this hadith cleearly shows innvoation or sugestion after death of muhamamd saw can no longer be made for allah says in the quran the religion is now complete, so again that scenario and scenario now is different

Quote:

Same with events after the prophet - the sahabahs did things that were new. Now I say that is an exercise in teaching us that it is allowed when done right. your response is that every time was a special case or a necessity of "not a religious matter" to which I obviously do not agree.

according to you a person putting a new handle on a swrod and using that in jihad is bidah and use this as evidence which shows why your udnerstanding of salatul duha was such a mess

the sahaba ra did thigns that were new were not innvoation in religion, in sahaba ra time another new thing happened was prophecies of muhammad saw happening this didnt happened in time of muhamamd saw now according to your logic this is bidah aswell, according to you since anythign enw done after muhamamd saw done is bidah, then after muhamamd saw death sahaba ra made new mosques, so now buiding new mosques is bidah in religion, sahaba ra buying new clothes is also bidah according to you sicce they did that after muhammad  saw death, a sahaba ra using a new miswak is now also bidah according to you because that miswak was used after death of muhammad saw this shows that you need to buy a dictionary and learn the definition of a few words

experiancing new things is not bidah, ali ra face the rebels for the first time in this religion, he fought muslims for the firs ttime in this religion so is this bidah? are you trying to say jihad is now a bidah so this clearly shows your view is a mess every way so it turns everything into bidah

Quote:

Your use of the verse about religion being completed is also without of the context of what happened later and is allowed and accepted.

We cannot add new commands and prohibitions,but apart from that quite a bit is allowed.

this hadith clearly proves you wrong

al-Darimi in the Muqaddima of his Sunan narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-Mubarak who narrates from `Amr ibn Salima al-Hamadani:

We used to sit by the door of `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud before the Morning

Prayer, so that when he came out we would walk with him to the mosque.

(One day) Abu Musa al-Ash`ari came to us and said: "Has Abu `Abd

al-Rahman come out yet?" We replied No. So he sat down with us until he

came out. When he came out, we all stood along with him, so Abu Musa

said to him: "O Abu `Abd al-Rahman! I have just seen something in the

mosque which I considered wrong, but all praise is for Allah, I did not

see anything except good in it." He inquired: "What is it?" Abu Musa

replied: "If you live you will see it. I saw in the mosque people

sitting in circles awaiting the Prayer. In each circle they had pebbles

in their hands and a man would say: Repeat allahu akbar a hundred times.

So they would repeat it a hundred times. Then he would say: say la

ilaha illallah a hundred times. So they would say it a hundred times.

Then he would say: say subhanallah a hundred times. So they would say it

a hundred times." Ibn Mas`ud asked: "What did you say to them?" Abu

Musa said: "I did not say anything to them. Instead I waited to hear

your view on it." Ibn Mas`ud replied: "Would that you had ordered them

to count their evil deeds and assured them that their good deeds would

not be lost!" Then we went along with him until he came to one of these

circles whereby he stood and said: "What is this I see you doing?" They

replied: "O Abu `Abd al-Rahman! These are pebbles upon which we are

counting takbir, tahlil and tasbih." He said: "Count your evil deeds

instead. I assure you that none of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to

you, O Umma of Muhammad, sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam, how quickly you

go to destruction! Here are your Prophet's Companions available in

abundance (mutawafirun). And there are his clothes which have not yet

decayed and his bowl which is unbroken. By Him in Whose Hand is my soul!

Either you are following a Religion that is better guided than the

Religion of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam, or you are opening a

door of misguidance." They said: "O Abu `Abd al-Rahman! By Allah, we

only intend good!" He said: "How many are there who intend good but do

not achieve it. Indeed Allah's Messenger said to us: A people will

recite the Qur'an but it will not pass beyond their throats. By Allah! I

do not know, but perhaps most of them are from among you." Then he left

them. `Amr ibn Salima said: We saw most of those people fighting

against us on the day of Nahrawan, on the side of the Khawarij.

 

Quote:

 

In the same way your mention of fasting and ramadan is flawed as you mention that the prophet warned against it. Now doing those act go against hadith. This is unlike Mawlid where there is no hadith suggesting that people do not celebrate.

On the issue of fasting, celebration etc, I hope you are concentrating on the meaning of what you write. The hadith shows that the event is notable and blessed. The Qur'an tells us to celebrate the blessings and mercies of the Lord.

no its not for like fating inr amadan celebration is only for the eids and no new must be added

again you go abck to this lame not so i say again you msut have a eid and mawlid for the plants you grow

Quote:

Through mentioning the issue of Ahura (where you tried to "bash" me as a shia...) I have shown how even if you argue certain acts are from outside Islam, how the prophet showed we should deal with such things (ie adopt the good, ban the bad instead of a blanket bad) and this is how Muslims have generally acted as "Muslim culture" was not something revealed but the culture of whatever community that accepted Islam and removed the bits that were not in accordance with islam.

(Even with arab culture, the same was done to make it Islamic - keep the good, remove the bad).

Now I don't see how you can support your assertions without ignoring centuries of Muslim history, as new things were done that had religious significance and they were considered allowed.

you didnt even use a single hadith to prove your point you used your own view not even from islam is hwoed you we fast on this day based on hadith

again when the adhan was revealed people were thinking how it should be done some said bells but that was from christians others said horn but that was jews then adhan came, now are you trying to say adhan is a immitation of the jews and christians and that muslim got this idea from them, answer is no, same with ashura it was done becasue we done this action before them and because we had mroe right on it

Quote:

 

mawlid is not part of islam, whetehr weekly yearly or ocne in 10 years its not part of islam it was created by shais and promoted by sufis

and this is what it boils down to. The above statement even rejects the hadith about the prophet fasting on mondays BECAUSE THAT WAS THE DAY HE WAS BORN.

You will stick to your points even if confronted with qur'an and sunnah, as that shows - you cannot accept things even when provided with uncontrovertible evidence.

I am sorry but when there is strong hadith evidence allowing it, then I will follow that instead of you.

again fasting ocne a week and celebrating something is diffeent, you say fasting ramadan is wrong example, tell me whats the difference between fasting and celebrating, fasting and salah, and salah and celebration its all different,

rasulullah saw fasted once a week, so does that mean i can say for that purpose i will do salah once a week insted, no for fasting and doing salah is 2 different thigns, again did rasulullah saw say celebrate it once a week or yearly or in 10 years no he said fast once a week,  again if rasulullahs aw says pray 5 times a day wil lyou sue that as a evidence you can fast 5 different times a day?

the ahdith has no link to celebrating mawlid, it says fast once a week, not celebrate it once a wekk or year, igf i sue your logic i will sue this hadith to now claim a person can now fast once a week on friday to celebrate the birth of every prophets

 

so again this shows your lack of udnerstanding of hadith

 

and again read what it says i fast every mondays because i was born on this day, he doesnt say i celebrate once a week or he doesnt say i celebrate mawlid, he says i fast once a week so again lack of udnerstanding

 

if arab culture was used then it was allah who did that not the people, now again quran was revelaed in arabic so are you gonna say it was the people who decided that

You wrote:

making sugestions and innovating and introducsing something in the religion is 2 compeltely different things

Unless those suggestions are new and they do add something new that was not there before.

The sahabahs debated how to call people to prayer and considered many options from a bell (like christians) or a horn, but they were not liked. Then a sahabi had a dream with the Adhaan in it. This was liked and approved and we still do this.

However if they are then approved through revelation, or through the prophet (saw), they no longer remain new but become a part of Islam either as reccomendations or commands in the Qur'an or by becoming sunnah.

Please try to understand the process of how it all works, as when there was still revelation, the process was not needed (as everything could be addressed beforehand through revelation). Such processes where there to teach us, just like when the prophet asked the sahabah questions to which he already knew the answers.

 

for this i will use a quote of umar ibn abdul aziz to prove you wrong again

'Umar Ibn 'Abdul 'Azeez said: Stop where the people have stopped! For

indeed, they stopped upon receiving knowledge. The clear evidences would

suffice them, and they were the strongest at manifesting them. If there

were any merit in something, then they would be the most deserving of

it. So if you say: 'It was introduced after them' , then no one

introduces something into it except that he has opposed their guidance,

and desired other than their example. They have described it from what

was sufficient, and they have spoken concerning it - what sufficed. What

is above them is excessiveness, and what is below them is inadequacy.

Some people have fallen short of them, and so they have drawn away. And

others have transgressed them, so they have become extreme. But indeed

they were between these two (extremes) upon a straight path. [Reported

by Ibn Qudaamah in Al Burhaan li Bayaanil Qur'aan (p. 88-89), as a

statement of 'Abdul 'Azeez Ibn Abil Maajishoon and then he said: He

related it's meaning back to 'Umar Ibn 'Abdul 'Azeez. al Haafidh Ibnul

Jawzee in Manaqibul Umar Ibn Abdul Azeez (p. 83-84). al Haafidh Ibn

Rajab Fadhlul Ilmis Salaf (p. 36)]

this was decided while muhamamd saw was alive so follow not innovate, as i mentioned this was decided by allah and his messenger saw, but now that the religion is compelte again we cant add anything new this was done before this

Once a man sneezed in the presence of Ibn Umar and said, "Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the Messenger.’ Ibn Umar chastised the man and said, "The Prophet has only taught us to say Alhumdu’lillah." (Tirmidhi)

Amr ibn Yahya narrated his father told him, "We used to sit at Abdullah Ibn Masood’s house before Fajr prayer. If he exited we would follow him to the masjid. Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari then came to us and asked us, ‘Did Abu Abur-Rahman (Abdullah Ibn Masood) come out yet?’ We said, ‘No’, so he sat with us till he emerged. We all stood up when he exited. He (Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari) said, ‘O Abu Adur-Rahman, I just saw something which I did not recognize, and I did not see, all thanks to Allah, but good.’ He (Ibn Masood) said, ‘What is it?’ He (Abu Musa) said, ‘If you live you will see it. I saw in the masjid people sitting in circles waiting for the prayer. In each circle there is a leader, and they have stones in their hands. He (the leader) would say, ‘Say Takbir (Allahu Akbar) 100 times’, so they say Takbir 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tahil (La Ilaha Illa Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tahil 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tasbih (Subhana Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tasbih 100 times. Ibn Masood said, ‘Did you not order them to count their evil deeds, and guarantee them that none of their good deeds will be lost?’ Then he and us left till we reached one of the circles. Then he (Ibn Masood) stood next to the circle and said, ‘What are you doing?’ They said, ‘O Abu Abdur-Rahamn, (these are) stones that we count our Takbir, Tahil, tasbih, and Tah’mid (Alhumdu’lillah).’ Ibn Masood said, ‘Count your evil deeds, for I guarantee that none of your good deeds will be lost. What is the matter with you, O nation of Muhammad? How soon you come to your destruction! The companions (of Muhammad) are still many, these are his clothes still not worn out and his cookware did not break yet. By whom my soul is in His Hands, you are either following a religion better than Muhammad’s or followers of a way of evil.’ They said, ‘By Allah, O Abu Abdur-Rahman, we sought only what is good.’ Ibn Masood said, ‘Many people seek good, but they do not reach it. The Messenger told us some people who read the Qur’an will not have the Qur’an leave their throats (to their hearts). By Allah I do not know if most of you are from them.’ Then he left them. Amr Ibn Salamah said, ‘We saw most of those people fighting against us, in the battle of Nahrawan with the Khawarij.’" (Tirmidhi)

abualabbasassaffah7 wrote:

Once a man sneezed in the presence of Ibn Umar and said, "Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the Messenger.’ Ibn Umar chastised the man and said, "The Prophet has only taught us to say Alhumdu’lillah." (Tirmidhi)

He was not carrying out a "new good act" but one already prohibited, so your meaning for this isn't valid:

From this Hadith it is proven that people should not add any thing to that what is being proven in Shariah. It is stated in Durre Mukhtaar: Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said, Do not mention me (my name) at the time of sneezing and at the time of slaughtering��. (Durre Mukhtaar, Kitaabuz Zabaih)Therefore, the saying of that person's, Assalaamo Ala Rasulillah falls under the prohibited command. It was the duty of Hazrat Ibn Umar (radi Allahu anhuma) to stop that person from committing a prohibited act.

Source

As for the next quote, it needs to be analysed what was disliked - the dhikr (where prophet advised his daughter to do it after fajr), the counting, the method of counting or some other reason.

The dhikr, as I have mentioned is a part of sunnah and it was taught by the prophet to his daughter, so that is not the disliked bit but something else.

no because i use the halal way you dont

Ouch. I see that our discussions have turned toxic.

I have shown you qur'an and hadith basis for ways you do not accept.

I have shown you how the prophet smiley fasted on a weekly basis. You do not think that Muslims doing any ibadat on a weekly basis copying this is allowed.

I have explained to you how God has sent peace on a prophet on the day of his birth, you hold no significance to this.

I have mentioned verses in the qur'an that tell to celebrate mercies and favours upon us, and also a verse which states that the prophet smiley was a mercy to the whole of mankind. You still reject us celebrating this mercy.

You argue that we cannot do any act that non Muslims do. I have shown the erros of your thoughts through how the prophet smiley dealt with Ashura. Yet you reject the significance of this.

I have shown you how the sahabahs in the time of the prophet smiley would use their own judgment yet it shows no significance to you.

I have shown how the caliphs did new acts that had religious significance, yet you would rather stick to your views on innovation than learn from how the sahabahs acted.

Beyond that I cannot covince you as you do not accept the importance and the lessons from the above.

You wrote:

abualabbasassaffah7 wrote:

Once a man sneezed in the presence of Ibn Umar and said, "Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the Messenger.’ Ibn Umar chastised the man and said, "The Prophet has only taught us to say Alhumdu’lillah." (Tirmidhi)

He was not carrying out a "new good act" but one already prohibited, so your meaning for this isn't valid:

From this Hadith it is proven that people should not add any thing to that what is being proven in Shariah. It is stated in Durre Mukhtaar: Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said, Do not mention me (my name) at the time of sneezing and at the time of slaughtering��. (Durre Mukhtaar, Kitaabuz Zabaih)Therefore, the saying of that person's, Assalaamo Ala Rasulillah falls under the prohibited command. It was the duty of Hazrat Ibn Umar (radi Allahu anhuma) to stop that person from committing a prohibited act.

Source

As for the next quote, it needs to be analysed what was disliked - the dhikr (where prophet advised his daughter to do it after fajr), the counting, the method of counting or some other reason.

The dhikr, as I have mentioned is a part of sunnah and it was taught by the prophet to his daughter, so that is not the disliked bit but something else.

the hadith is clear he said something after sneezing which is not part of islam, we say alhamdulillah he said something else

the next hadith is also simple i beleive ibn mas'ud ra was very clear on what he was saying he was reffering to the act they were doi which the sahaba ra complained about to him, did he say they are counting the wrong way, using stones wood, no he said they were doing a new act and it was reffering to their new act they innovated which he came and ordered them to stop so again dont twist things about stick to the reality

the hadith isnt a hard one its simple, anyone can tell whats happening, he was given a complaint on people innovating something new he came and stopped it, so no need of your useless analyses on was it this or that

it was the bidah of creating a new act and he ordered them not to do it

the dhikr rasulullah saw taught to his daughter wasnt the one mentioend in the hadith nor was it the same as the one ali ra learnt, this is a compeltely new one so again dont lie, it might work against someone who has no or little knowledge in this field but not someone who is aware of these thigns so again matter is simple end of quote

You wrote:

no because i use the halal way you dont

Ouch. I see that our discussions have turned toxic.

I have shown you qur'an and hadith basis for ways you do not accept.

I have shown you how the prophet smiley fasted on a weekly basis. You do not think that Muslims doing any ibadat on a weekly basis copying this is allowed.

I have explained to you how God has sent peace on a prophet on the day of his birth, you hold no significance to this.

I have mentioned verses in the qur'an that tell to celebrate mercies and favours upon us, and also a verse which states that the prophet smiley was a mercy to the whole of mankind. You still reject us celebrating this mercy.

You argue that we cannot do any act that non Muslims do. I have shown the erros of your thoughts through how the prophet smiley dealt with Ashura. Yet you reject the significance of this.

I have shown you how the sahabahs in the time of the prophet smiley would use their own judgment yet it shows no significance to you.

I have shown how the caliphs did new acts that had religious significance, yet you would rather stick to your views on innovation than learn from how the sahabahs acted.

Beyond that I cannot covince you as you do not accept the importance and the lessons from the above.

 

and now all i need is to use this single hadith to prove all this wrong

We used to practice Al-`Azl[5] during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) when the Qur’aan was being revealed. If it was something to be prohibited, the Qur’aan would have prohibited it

saheeh bukhari muslim

 

this hadith proves all your points wrong and me right, for as i said the sahaba ra is now making it clear that when they did this it was becasue they knew the quran still had revelation to be revelaed so when they did it they knew they would be corrected if it was wrong, now you claimed sahaba ra could innvoate but we look at this hadith and we can see the sahaba ra is making it clear for them this was the case because the quran was still being revelaed and muhammad saw woudlve corrected them if it was wrong

however once the quran was revealed this was no longer valid becasue now that the quran has been complted they kenw what was wrong and what was right, so this methodology was no longer valid, as the right and wrong were now their and if a new thing they werent sure of they would have to find out as the quran was complete it would no longer reveal anything new, and with muhammad saw dead he too is no longer here to get any new revelation or anything enw to tell them so they could no longer use this method now, it was something they only did back then because muhammad saw was alive and mroe of all quran was still being revelaed

so the sahaba ra always went on with the action they were doing knowing that if it is wrong they will be corrected not ebcasue they had the right to innvoate new things but because allah wouldve corrected them and because the quran was still incomplete at that point so at that point new thigns were still being revealed and added in the religion of islam, but now that the religion is compelte it cannot be added hence the 2 hadith i mentioned above of ibn uamr ra and ibn masud ra in which it is clear bidah in all forms is harram in the religion of islam, and your excuse of sahaba ra innvaoting so we can do it is also invalid

unsurprisingly

and to understand the meaning of better read this

http://madinahshowroom.webs.com/library/2principles.html

People's actions fall into two categories: `aadaat and `ibaadaat.

`Aadaat

refers to customary practices required for day-to-day living such as

eating and drinking, working, playing, talking, buying and selling,

wearing different types of clothes, travelling and so on.

`Ibaadaat

refers to acts of worship which are performed to bring one closer to

Allaah and attaining His reward such as performing salaah, giving

charity, fasting, performing hajj performing wudoo', reciting the Qur’aan, performing dhikr (remembrance of Allaah), supplicating to Allaah (du`aa') and so on.

With regards to `aadaat the

basic principle governing it is that of permissibility. That is, all

`aadaat are permissible (halaal) unless proven otherwise with evidence

from the Qur’aan, the authentic hadeeth, consensus (ijmaa`) or correct analogy (qiyaas).

The scholars of Islam derived this principle of the permissibility

of things from many evidences such as the statement of Allaah (the

meaning of which is):

"It is He Who created all that is on the earth for you…" (2:29), and:

"He has subjected to you, from Himself, all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth…" (45:13), and:

"He has explained to you what he has made unlawful (haraam) for you…" (6:119),

and the statement of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam):

"What

Allaah has made lawful in His Book[1] is halaal and what He has

forbidden you is haraam and that concerning which He is silent is

allowed as His favour, so accept from Allaah His favour, for Allaah is

not forgetful of anything." He then recited the Verse, "And your Lord is not forgetful." (19:64)[2]

As for `ibaadaat, the basic principle regarding it is that of tawqeef. That

is, all acts and forms of worship are restricted to what is mentioned

in the texts of the Qur'aan and the authentic hadeeth.

The scholars based this principle of the prohibition of all acts of

worship except those that are proven on the Qur'aan and the Sunnah on

many evidences such as the statement of Allaah, the Most High:

"Do

they have partners (with Allaah) who have prescribed for them in

religion that concerning which Allaah has given not permission?!" (42:21),

and the statement of the Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam):

"Whoever introduces in this Sharee`ah of ours that which is not in it will have it rejected."[3]

What has been mentioned above of these two important principles is what the Salaf[4] were upon and it is what they understood from the teachings of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam), as is shown by the following two examples.

The first example, regarding the principle on `aadaat, is that of the Companion Jaabir ibn `Abdillaah (radiyallaahu `anhumaa). He said:

“We used to practice Al-`Azl[5] during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) when the Qur’aan was being revealed. If it was something to be prohibited, the Qur’aan would have prohibited it.”[6]

The second example, regarding the principle on `ibaadaat, is that of the Companion `Abdullaah ibn `Umar (radiyallaahu `anhumaa).

Naafi` narrated that a man sneezed beside Ibn `Umar and said: “Praise

be to Allaah, and peace be upon the Messenger of Allaah (Al-Hamdulillaah was-Salaamu `alaa Rasoolillaah).” Ibn `Umar said:

“I do say that praise be to Allaah and peace be upon the Messenger

of Allaah, but this is not how the Messenger of Allaah taught us! He

taught us to say (after sneezing): “Praise be to Allaah in all

situations (Al-Hamdulillaahi `alaa kulli haal).”[7]

In conclusion, upon encountering differences of opinion on the legal status[8] of anything from the `aadaat, a person should ask for evidence concerning its prohibition, since all `aadaat are originally permissible unless proven otherwise. And if the differed upon matter is from the `ibaadaat,

then a person should ask for evidence concerning its permissibility,

since all acts and forms of worship are originally prohibited unless

proven otherwise.

May Allaah, the Most High, grant us all the true understanding of

His religion, according to His Book and the authentic hadeeth of His

Messenger upon the methodology of the Salaf. All

praises and thanks are due to Allaah, and may Allaah send His peace and

blessings upon our Prophet, his companions and all those who follow

them.

_________________________________

[1] That is, either specifically such as His statement, "Prohibited

to you are dead (creatures), blood, the flesh of swine, that which has

been dedicated to other than Allaah…" (5:3), or generally such as his

statement, "And whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever

he forbids you refrain from it." (59:7).

See also: Riyaad-us-Saaliheen (Chapter 296, #1645).

[2] An authentic hadeeth, graded authentic by Al-Bazzaar (4087), Al-Haakim (2/315), Ibn-ul-Qayyim (I`laam-ul-Muwaqqi`een, 2/459), Al-Haithamee (Al-Majma`, 1/171, 7/55), Al-Albaanee (Ghaayat-ul-Maraam, 2; As-Saheehah, 2256), Shu`aib Al-Arna’oot (Mushkil-ul-Aathaar, 2/226-227), Sa`d Al-Humayyid (Mukhtasar Istidraak-idh-Dhahabee, 872), Al-Hilaalee (Bahjat-un-Naazireen, 3/299; As-Sunnah lil-Marwazee, p.667-672) and Mashhoor Salmaan (Al-I`tisaam, 1/179; I`laam-ul-Muwaqqi`een, 2/429).

It is also supported by another hadeeth that was authenticated by Al-Haakim (2/317, 4/115), Ibn Katheer (Irshaad-ul-Faqeeh, 1/368), Al-Albaanee (Ghaayat-ul-Maraam, 34/1; Hidaayat-ur-Ruwaah, 4074), Al-Waadi`ee (As-Saheeh-ul-Musnad, 646), Shu`aib Al-Arna'oot (Jaami`-ul-`Uloom, 2/152; Mushkil-ul-Aathaar, 2/228), Al-Hilaalee (As-Sunnah, p.672) and Mashhoor Salmaan (I`laam-ul-Muwaqqi`een, 2/461-462).

[3] Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (2697) and Muslim (4467, 4468) in their Saheehs.

See also: The Book of Sunnah of the Hadeeth Encyclopedia.

[4] Salaf: the first three generations of Muslims; the Companions (Sahaabah), their following generation (Taabi`oon) and their followers (Al-Atbaa`). They were the best of this Ummah (nation) who understood and followed Islam the best, and who loved Allaah and His Messenger the most.

See: The Excellence of the Salaf and the Obligation of following them from the Book of Sunnah of the Hadeeth Encyclopedia.

[5] Al-`Azl: coitus interruptus, or withdrawal before ejaculation during intercourse.

[6] Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (5208) and Muslim (3544-3546) in their Saheehs.

[7] An authentic narration; authenticated by Al-Haakim, Ibn Muflih,

Al-Albaanee, Al-Hilaalee, Al-Halabee, Faisal Al-`Uqayyil, Hamdee

`Abdul-Majeed and others.

See Hadeeth Encyclopedia for details.

For more examples, see: The Salaf's Attitude towards Bid`ah and its People from the Book of Sunnah of the Hadeeth Encyclopedia.

[8] Ar. Hukm Shar`ee, i.e., whether something is waajib (obligatory), mustahabb (recommended), mubaah (permitted), makrooh (detested) or haraam (prohibited).

You wrote:

no because i use the halal way you dont

Ouch. I see that our discussions have turned toxic.

I have shown you qur'an and hadith basis for ways you do not accept.

you mean the ones you misquoted

Quote:

I have shown you how the prophet smiley fasted on a weekly basis. You do not think that Muslims doing any ibadat on a weekly basis copying this is allowed.

fasting and celebrating are 2 different thigns, why dont you get a hadith on praying and use that as a evidence you can fst, such as we pray 5 times a day so we can break our fast 5 times a day and it will be counted as fasting 5 times in a single day

Quote:

I have explained to you how God has sent peace on a prophet on the day of his birth, you hold no significance to this.

allah sends blessings to every new born that doesnt mean we celebrate this, allah also sent sallam to khadija ra this doesnt mean we celebrate this either and lastly allah ordered aadam as to be bowed down by everyone a action far superior then getting a sallam again we dont celebrate this, this is not a evidence of celebrating it jsut shows a blessing allah gave muhammad saw, so again misquoting verses of quran, allah declared ibrahim as as his friend this isnt a evidence to show we can celebrate this

Quote:

I have mentioned verses in the qur'an that tell to celebrate mercies and favours upon us, and also a verse which states that the prophet smiley was a mercy to the whole of mankind. You still reject us celebrating this mercy.

and i responded by saying then celebrate the moon for being cracked by creating a birthday celebration for that, go around making a new eid for that, eat some sweets and whateer mawlid food you have for that, make a eid for your plant, a new celebration for the creation o toielt aswell

again misquoting verses of the quran and changing its meaning

Quote:

You argue that we cannot do any act that non Muslims do. I have shown the erros of your thoughts through how the prophet smiley dealt with Ashura. Yet you reject the significance of this.

again your lies being exposed, muhamamd saw stated the reason why we do this and it didnt include the reaosn you gave, we do adhan before salah, christian and jews also call for prayer does that mean we copied them, no for allah revealed how we should do this action, now if i make a claim the reason why allah did this because sufis love this method, then obviously this is a lie for this was not stated by allah or his messenger saw, so again with this when allah and his messenger saw have already stated why we do this why are you creating a new lie on allah and his messenger saw, it is obvious you have learnt nothing from a topic i made lying upon allah and his mesenger saw

Quote:

I have shown you how the sahabahs in the time of the prophet smiley would use their own judgment yet it shows no significance to you.

and i again exposed this li of yours

Jaabir ibn `Abdillaah (radiyallaahu `anhumaa). He said:

“We used to practice Al-`Azl[5] during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) when the Qur’aan was being revealed. If it was something to be prohibited, the Qur’aan would have prohibited it.”[6]

they did this becasue the quran was still being revealed once that was done this was no longer valid like this

Then know that there cannot ever be any innovation, except that a proof against it has already passed, and there is a warning in it. umar ibn abdul aziz

Abdullah ibn Mas'ud said, "Follow the Sunnah of Muhammad and do not innovate, for what you have been commanded is enough for you." [Ad-Darimi]

Imam Abu Hanifah said, "Stick to the narrations and the way of the Salaf, and beware of newly-invented matters for all of it is innovation." [Sawn ul-Mantaq of as-Suyuti, p32]

Imam Malik said, "He who

innovates an innovation in Islam regarding it as something good, has

claimed that Muhammad has betrayed his trust to deliver the message as

Allah says, "This day I have perfected for you your religion." And whatsoever was not part of the religion then, is not part of the religion today." [Al-I'tisam]  He also said, "How evil are the people of innovation, we do not give them salam." [Al-Ibanah of Ibn Battah (d. 387H), no. 441]

Imam ash-Shafi'i said, "Whosoever considers an innovation to be good has corrected the Prophet." [Bulugh al-Maram

of Ibn Hajar (available in English), p190 footnote 2] And all that has

been related from him that contradicts this statement, regarding

innovation as being of two types is either weak or baseless as al-Hafidh adh-Dhahabi and others from the scholars of hadith state.

Imam Ahmad said, "The fundmental principles of the Sunnah with us are: ... avoiding innovation and every innovation is misguidance." [Usul us-Sunnah (available in English), p.1]

Quote:

I have shown how the caliphs did new acts that had religious significance, yet you would rather stick to your views on innovation than learn from how the sahabahs acted.

umar ibn abdul aziz proves you wrong again

Hâzim ibn Abû Hâzim narrated that ‘Umar said to him, “If every innovation that Allah ends by my hands and every good practice that Allah revives by my hands takes a part of my flesh till I die, it will be an easy matter for the sake of Allah.”

Quote:

Beyond that I cannot covince you as you do not accept the importance and the lessons from the above.

so far no quran hadith sahaba ra caliphs or first  generation agree with you rather it seems you are opposite to them

 IMAAM ABU HANIFAH ON BID’AH

Offering some advice   to Imaam Abu Yusuf (rahmatullahalayh), Imaam Abu Hanifah (rahmatullah alayh) said: “If any person introduces a bid’ah in the Shariah, then publicly proclaim his error so that people do not become audacious infollowing him. In so doing do not be concerned with his statusand fame. In proclaiming the Haqq, Allah Ta’ala is your Aid.He, Himself, protects His Deen. Even if the king commits anerror, admonish him with clarity. If he refuses to heed your admonition, explain to him in privacy that his act is in conflictwith the Qur’aan and Sunnah. If then too he refuses to heed,supplicate to Allah Ta’ala to save you and the Ummah from hisevil.