Lal Masjid people were going around enforcing their own laws. Gov had to do something about it. They threatend suicide attacks if the gov moved against them. When the the chips were down one of their leaders tried to escape wearing a burqa. The other leader is still inside apparently among women and children.

They were an authority onto themselves. They are hypocritical. They are putting lives at risk. The gov is right to act.

the mosque people are right. they were stopping prossies and music. its the governments job to stop bad things but if they dont then other people stop bad things happening its the governments fault for not doing its job properly. hypocrite sounds more right for the government and the people who support them because the government is attacking a mosque and supporting prossies. beast how about if i called your dad a hypcrite? who are you to call those molvis hypocrites his dad was a shaheed.

The students have been made to promise to give up their lives to defend the mosque but the mosque leader tried to escape wearing a burqa. That is hypocritical.

"bro" wrote:

beast how about if i called your dad a hypcrite? who are you to call those molvis hypocrites his dad was a shaheed.

OMG!!!

"Mecca Da Lyrical Berretta" wrote:

Oh and you do know the head molvi's henchman have been killing ppl as well. Very Islamic.

didnt the prophet kill people with his bow and arrow? didnt hazrat abu bakr and hazrat umar and hazrat usman and hazrat ali kill people? if you weirdos support musharaf over the molvis then you are sad. your meant to give 70 gud excuses for a muslim so why are you calling that molvi a hypocrite, atleast he's trying to do something unlike the other dodgy ones who molest boys and only do katam.

"bro" wrote:

unlike the other dodgy ones who molest boys and only do katam.

Now, now. Where's you 70 excuses?

im sorry my mistake. the boyz must have come onto the molvy who molested them enit. sicko. :evil:

they leaving the bodies of the dead in the street. they aint letting anyone pick them up. fuck you musharaf and fuck your kafir police and soldiers. islam zindabad. :evil:

It's Pakistan, what do you expect

you can even buy guns here in the UK.

I'm more surprised at this:

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42739000/jpg/_42739363_hafsa2_afp_...

Unfortunately it seems it has come to blows.

Quote:

BBC, Tuesday, 10 July 2007

[b]Obituary: Abdul Rashid Ghazi [/b]

He said he "would rather die than surrender"

"The real problems between [Ghazi] and the state developed in 2004, over the operation against pro-Taleban militants in Pakistan's tribal areas"

Asif Farooqui of the BBC's Urdu service profiles Abdul Rashid Ghazi who led the last of the resistance in Islamabad's Red Mosque to Pakistan's security forces.

Pakistani cleric Abdul Rashid Ghazi moved in liberal circles and favoured Western-style clothes as a young man, but was radicalised later in life.

His father, Maulana Abdullah, founded Islamabad's Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) and served as its head from when it was built in the late 1960s.

Maulana Abdullah's murder in 1998 left Abdul Rashid Ghazi a changed man and appears to have marked the start of his transformation from moderate to militant.

He came into the public limelight in 2001 when Pakistan's religious parties formed an alliance against the US invasion of Afghanistan.

After that he was accused of plotting to kill President Musharraf and of having numerous links with Islamic militants.

Struck from father's will

Abdul Rashid Ghazi's father came from a poor and religious family in Rajanpur district in southern Punjab.

The family belongs to the Baloch Mazari, a warrior tribe from southern Punjab and north-eastern Balochistan.

Maulana Abdullah's circle of influence included senior government officials and politicians and he was said to be very close to former military ruler Gen Zia-ul-Haq.

In 1998, Maulana Abdullah was assassinated in the courtyard of the Red Mosque. According to his will, his elder son, Maulana Abdul Aziz, replaced him as the mosque's khateeb (the person who delivers the sermon).

Abdul Aziz was always seen as the obedient son, who quietly followed in his father's footsteps. But his younger brother was quite different.

From the very first, Abdul Rashid Ghazi refused to receive any sort of formal Islamic education. He enrolled at a madrassa (religious school) under pressure from his father, but soon ran away.

He refused to grow a beard, and went to the secular Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, later graduating with a master's degree in international relations. He then applied for and got a job with the Ministry of Education.

Abdul Rashid Ghazi also refrained from using the title Hafiz (someone who has memorised the Koran). So displeased was his father by his un-Islamic lifestyle that he made his elder son sole heir in his will.

After his father's murder, Abdul Rashid Ghazi started to take an interest in the affairs of the mosque and the madrassa attached to it and also grew a beard.

But he continued his job with the Ministry of Education. His elder brother, meanwhile, encouraged his Islamic re-education, and made him his deputy in the mosque and heir apparent.

'Militant links'

In 2001, Abdul Rashid Ghazi became a central leader of the religious alliance opposed to the US invasion of Afghanistan, making passionate speeches about defending the country at daily demonstrations in Islamabad.

But the real problems between him and the state developed in 2004, over the operation against pro-Taleban militants in Pakistan's tribal areas.

Like other religious leaders, Abdul Rashid Ghazi also condemned the operation and used the Red Mosque to wage a campaign against it.

During this time the mosque issued a fatwa or religious edict which said that soldiers dying in the campaign should described as "killed", while the militants' dead were to be called "martyrs". This enraged President Musharraf and the army.

Soon after, the government announced that Abdul Rashid Ghazi had been involved in a plot to blow up the president's house, the parliament building and army headquarters on Pakistan's independence day.

Abdul Rashid Ghazi went underground, and the government presented an explosive-filled truck owned by him as evidence of his involvement to the media.

Armed

Some time later the minister for religious affairs, Ejaz-ul-Haq, held a press conference saying that Abdul Rashid Ghazi had not been involved in the plot and the real culprits had been arrested and charged.

These were said to be men belonging to the tribal areas and included Uzbek militants. It had also been established, officials said, that they had regularly visited the Red Mosque.

Further investigations apparently revealed that Abdul Rashid Ghazi had close contacts with militants in Pakistan's tribal area of Waziristan.

The cleric's first known gun battle took place when armed men tried to assassinate him in Islamabad. But he and his bodyguards using AK-47 rifles fought them off.

Since then, Abdul Rashid Ghazi always travelled around armed. He had an AK-47 in his car, near his work desk and near his bed when he slept.

[b]Profile: Islamabad's Red Mosque [/b]

The controversial Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) that is the focus of a bloody confrontation between Pakistani security forces and radical clerics and students is located near the centre of the capital, Islamabad.

A religious school for women, the Jamia Hafsa madrassa, is attached to the mosque. A male madrassa is a few minutes drive away.

Throughout most of its existence, the mosque has long been favoured by the city elite, including prime ministers, army chiefs and presidents.

Pakistan's longest-ruling dictator, General Zia-ul-Haq, was said to be very close to the former head of the Lal Masjid, Maulana Abdullah, who was famous for his speeches on jihad (holy war).

This was during the 1980s when the mujahideen's fight against Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was at its peak, and jihad was seen as an acceptable clarion call in the Muslim world.

The mosque is located near the headquarters of Pakistan's shadowy ISI intelligence service, which helped train and fund the holy warriors, and a number of ISI staff are said to go there for prayers.

'Terror links'

The Lal Masjid has since been a centre of radical Islamic learning and houses several thousand male and female students in adjacent seminaries.

Maulana Abdullah was assassinated in the mosque in late nineties, and since then the entire complex has been run by his sons, Maulana Abdul Aziz and Abdul Rashid Ghazi.

The brothers admit to having had good contacts with many of the wanted leaders of al-Qaeda, including Osama Bin Laden.

This was in the years before the 11 September, 2001 attacks on the US, when jihad was part of Pakistan's state-sanctioned policy.

Since the "war on terror" began, however, both the Lal Masjid and the Jamia Hafsa deny having had any links with organisations now banned for supporting terrorism.

But they have been vehement in their support for the "jihad against America" and have openly condemned President Musharraf.

Tribal areas

In speeches after Gen Musharraf openly announced his support for the war on terror", the mosque has been the centre of calls for his assassination.

One of these speeches was delivered by Maulana Masood Azhar, whose Jaish-e-Mohammad fundamentalist group members were later involved in several failed attempts on the life of the president.

Gen Musharraf is thus understandably perturbed by the mosque and its leaders and has repeatedly ordered action against them.

So far all attempts to rein the mosque and its leaders in have been unsuccessful.

The Lal Masjid and its madrassa also have strong links to the tribal areas of Pakistan, which provide many of their students.

In a recent interview, Abdul Rashid Ghazi said that they had the support of the Waziristan Taleban and any actions against the madrassa would have an "appropriate response".

The Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa were in the news in July 2005 when Pakistani security forces tried to raid the mosque following the suicide bombings that month in London.

The security personnel were met by baton-wielding women who refused to let them enter the mosque or seminary compound.

Authorities said the security forces were investigating a link between the seminary and Shehzad Tanweer, one of the 7 July bombers.

The school has been in the limelight ever since.

'Fight to death'

The madrassa's administration has also been particularly vocal in raising the issue of missing people in Pakistan - hundreds of suspected radical militants and their families who are allegedly in the detention of Pakistan's intelligence agencies.

It was also a leading light in the protests in Pakistan against Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad which led to demonstrations all over the Muslim world.

And it was the Jamia Hafsa which British schoolgirl Misbah Rana, also known as Molly Campbell, was reported to have been interested in joining after arriving in Pakistan at the centre of an international custody row.

The latest controversy to feature the school was when it launched a campaign against the demolition of mosques in Islamabad by the capital authority.

After the administration started the demolition of part of the mosque, said to have been constructed illegally, students of the seminaries launched an all-out campaign against them.

They prevented the authorities physically from reaching the site and then occupied the building of a nearby children's library.

Most of this was done by the female students, many of whom were carrying Kalashnikovs during the occupation.

The students then set-up a round the clock vigil and promised to "fight to death" after the government threatened to evict them.

The situation was only defused after the authorities backed down and offered talks.

The government has since reconstructed the demolished part of the mosque compound, but the administration maintains that six other mosques around the capital city which have met similar treatment should also be rebuilt.

In the meantime, students have remained in occupation of the library and have been involved in other "social activities" like the raid on the hostel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6503477.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6281228.stm

Quote:

[b]Moderate-turned-militant with Kalashnikov at his bedside [/b]

By Mazhar Abbas

As a student, teachers said he showed no signs of Islamic militancy. Now Pakistani cleric Abdul Rashid Ghazi sleeps with a Kalashnikov by his bed and has vowed to die in his besieged mosque.

The bespectacled, articulate 43-year-old has led hundreds of pro-Taliban followers since his elder brother Abdul Aziz, the head of Islamabad's Red Mosque, was caught trying to flee the complex in a burqa.

Ghazi's early schooling was at a boys-only Islamic seminary but he never opted for the madrassa lifestyle until the murder of his father in 1998 turned his life upside down.

"He was a normal, moderate student who was well adjusted to a co-educational system," Naim Qureshi, Ghazi's teacher at the history department of Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, told AFP.

Ghazi did his masters in history in 1987-88, and a photo of him and his colleagues still hangs on the department's wall.

"In studies he was okay but I don't remember his grades. I remember that he had a normal beard," he said, comparing it with the bushy, grey, Islamist-style beard that Ghazi now sports.

His teacher said there was little sign of militancy back then. "People do change their lifestyle, after all it's 20 years on now, but it did surprise me," Qureshi said.

Ghazi later married into a moderate family and lived a relatively westernised life. He got a government job in the education ministry and also worked with UNESCO, the UN's culture organisation.

"Ghazi used to share jokes, often spoke in English, moved in mixed company and was an active student," said a university friend who asked not to be named.

His father, Abdullah Aziz, who headed the mosque, was so angry with his lifestyle that he handed over his property to his brother. But Ghazi was not unhappy, the friend said.

However, he completely changed after his father was shot dead inside the mosque by a lone gunmen, thought to be from a rival Islamic group. Ghazi joined his brother, who took over the mosque in 1998 and nominated him as his deputy.

Ghazi also acquired links with Pakistani intelligence services, who earlier used his father and brother to help foster Islamists. The services wanted the Islamists to support the anti-Soviet "jihad" in Afghanistan and the subsequent rise to power of the Taliban.

By the time of 9/11, friends said there was no trace left of the "old" Ghazi. But he also began to move away from his state sponsors.

Security sources said he had close links with pro-Taliban militants and agitated against President Pervez Musharraf's decision to back the US-led invasion of Afghanistan.

Colleagues said that in 2004 he survived an attempt on his life and since then had always carried a Kalashinkov with him.

"You always find an AK-47 in his car, with him in the madrassa and even at his bedside," one colleague said.

By 2007 Ghazi and Aziz had become implacably committed towards turning Pakistan into a Taliban-style Islamic state.

"We are not only challenging Musharraf, we are challenging the system," he told AFP in an interview at the mosque in May.

Their students raided music stores and brothels and kidnapped people allegedly involved in "vice". Disastrously for them, these included seven people from Pakistan's closest ally and biggest military supplier, China.

At least 19 people have now died since clashes erupted at the mosque and security forces surrounded it on Tuesday.

Ghazi at one point offered to surrender if he could stay at the mosque with his sick mother.

But by Friday he was vowing that he would rather be "martyred" than give in to the government, which alleges that he is holding women and children in a basement with him as human shields, a charge he denies.

"Ghazi is a changed man now, more determined and rigid in his ideas. I doubt he will surrender now," the colleague said.

Did anyone catch that interview on DM Digital yesterday morning around 10ish?

[b]The Devil rejoices at the slaughter [/b]

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=16091&sectionid=351020401

Quote:

[b]US hails Lal Mosque massacre [/b]

Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:24:51

The US State Department has praised Pakistan for storming Lal Mosque and the gunmen leader, describing the move as "responsible" step.

"The government of Pakistan has proceeded in a responsible way on this issue," said Tom Casey, a State Department spokesman, noting that authorities had given "ample" opportunities for the militants to surrender peacefully through negotiations.

At least 70 gunmen and five soldiers have been killed and 25 others wounded after Pakistani troops stormed the Lal Mosque Tuesday following a break down in talks with the group holed up in the mosque.

President Pervez Musharraf, under pressure from the US side, authorized the storming of the Lal Mosque after talks with the leader of the gunmen holed up at the mosque broke down following a week-long.

The leader, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, also was shot dead earlier on Tuesday.

My view on this:

Can't see the gov as having much choice really. You cannot allow such people to escape after they create such trouble in the capital, kill police, take hostages almost willy nilly, take over others' land and buildings.

Should have been dealt with sooner.

This seems like Pakistan's WACO.

Had to look up Waco (and the Waco seige).

"[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege wrote:

Wikipedia[/url]"]Any advantage of surprise was lost as a reporter, who had been tipped off on the raid, asked for directions from a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier who was Koresh's brother-in-law

This being in Pakistan though I doubt we will ever know what really happened. (apart from the fact that basic communication infrastructure was not taken out. You could hear the main guy on TV during the assault. He was on a mobile phone!)

"MuslimBro" wrote:

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42739000/jpg/_42739363_hafsa2_afp_...

This is probably inappropriate but

LMAO @ pic.

Looks like a Grim Reeper convention

"You" wrote:

Had to look up Waco (and the Waco seige).

[quote="[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege]Wikipedia[/url]"]Any advantage of surprise was lost as a reporter, who had been tipped off on the raid, asked for directions from a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier who was Koresh's brother-in-law

This being in Pakistan though I doubt we will ever know what really happened. (apart from the fact that basic communication infrastructure was not taken out. You could hear the main guy on TV during the assault. He was on a mobile phone!)[/quote]

People say the same about WACO, and how we will "never really know." As far as I'm concerned a whacko cult leader hid behind women and children to stockpile weapons and overthrow the government. When American lives are at risk like that action has to be taken, nobody likes to think about killing women and children but there was no other alternative.

Quote:

The teacher said that no one was being stopped from going home, and she asked parents to go and find their children to take them home. Very few girls left because they were afraid - those who left were either minors or they were forced to leave by their parents...

We were shocked that they cut off the electricity and also cut off the water and gas supply. What could we do? We were only praying to God to show them the right path.

They were throwing lots tear gas shells. We were continually cleaning our eyes with water. Glass windows were breaking, doors were breaking. We couldn't sleep, sometimes one would sleep for an hour, or half an hour, the others would stay awake. That way we managed...

We wanted to carry out suicide attacks. We didn't have enough ammunition to fight face to face. We had a small number of arms with which our mujahideen brothers were fighting.

We asked the teacher to provide us with arms necessary for suicide attacks. She said that we didn't have sufficient explosives. Yes, we had a passion and we were willing to go to all lengths...

We had been told by our teacher that they had put explosives in the building and that we shouldn't die in this manner, but that we should come outside to face the bullets or even surrender. It was better to come out rather than die under the debris...

We came outside with our hands raised and saw that the doors were closed and they were on the roof. There was no way to leave. We told them that we had surrendered and they should not shoot at us. A policeman showed us the way out and finally, we were taken outside...

After meeting my father, I was overcome by grief as I had hoped to be a martyr and come back alive.

Now they've attacked the Red Mosque and Jamia Hafsa [the seminary attached to it], I hope the whole country will have Red Mosques. I will work for jihad, and open a madrassa and train people for jihad.

BBC Urdu interview with Red Mosque survivor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6907141.stm

I love how that interview starts off all reasonable-like.