the worse thing about this is that 'kafir' does not simply mean 'non-Muslim' or 'disbeliever'

my arabic speaking friends tell me that the root 'Kaf-Fa-Raa' means 'ingratitude'.

if you read the Qur'an carefully, you will not find it berating the kafirun for the simple fact they are not Muslim, but because of the fact that they believed in Allah (swt) (along with other gods, but they believed in Him nonetheless) but they were arrogant and saw themselves as superiour to the Muslims, and would never lower their head to the ground in prostration to any being, whether man or God.

therefore addressing someone as kafir IS an insult because its like calling them Mr. Arrogant or haughty, which is not exactly a complement

btw MS, how old were the aformentioned kids u taught, because while i'm a bit appalled at their openings to letters, the concept of calling someone a 'dear infidel' is rather sweet

"Ya'qub" wrote:

therefore addressing someone as kafir IS an insult because its like calling them Mr. Arrogant or haughty, which is not exactly a complement

btw MS, how old were the aformentioned kids u taught, because while i'm a bit appalled at their openings to letters, the concept of calling someone a 'dear infidel' is rather sweet

Thats EXACTLY why I consider the term insulting...it just stinks of arrogance.

I cant remember who said this but...someone mentioned that the reason why we shouldnt refer to non Muslims as Kafir, is cos we dont know if towards the end of our time, we may die as non Muslims and they may die the death of a Muslim.

Ones Iman is between the two fingers of the Almighty.

My students were aged between 11-12. And yes, their work really was shocking.

Intrestingly enough, this is something that takes ages to hammer in...I teach another class, which I have been teaching for 4 years now...and whenever I mark their essays and see the word Kafir in it...I circle it with a thick red pen, so they know its wrong and why.

But they havent got the message yet...I think its partly cos of what they hear their parents say on a regular basis.

MS it's shocking the way your students refer to non-muslims. i would be very worried. :? if someone doesn't change their views now whilst they're young, God knows what they'll be like as adults.

also MS and Ya'qub, it's unfair to suggest kids going to single-faith/Islamic schools aren't well-rounded or tolerant individuals. a lot depends on the upbringing parents choose to give to their child, we can't blame everything on schools. i agree that in the working world one should not segregate oneself from the rest of society, but that's at a much later stage in life when you are confident in yourself as a Muslim and can answer all the questions thrown at you. Islamic schools which teach the correct values (minus 'kafir/infidel'! ;)) often prepare children for the outside world by making them confident in themselves and tolerant of other faiths.

"*DUST*" wrote:

it's unfair to suggest kids going to single-faith/Islamic schools aren't well-rounded or tolerant individuals. a lot depends on the upbringing parents choose to give to their child, we can't blame everything on schools.

i agree, i was trying to say that in a family that teaches respect and tolerance to their kids, there wouldn't be the same problem to go to a single-faith school IMO. its just is think that if one's parents are teaching intolerance, its healthier for the child to attend a mixed school so atlest they get to see the other side of the picture.

just to make clear, most of my friends who went to faith schools have come out just fine, very nice and considerate. i have more of a prblem of the [i]concept[/i] of faith schools than their implementation.

"malik" wrote:

ok instead of showing how disgraceful women in other cultures tend to dress - compared with Muslims girls, I wont try to name any particular faith or country. That mirror seems to be revealing too much for some people. I don't want hurt feelings of anyone here.

Why does it concern you so much what otehrs do? Is it not better to look at oneself and inprov ourselves than to just concentrate on the flaws of others?

Quote:

But I would like to say that Muslim bashing goes on all the time on tv, newspapers; and politicians have a go at Islam all the time. Even Christians priests in America often attack Islam calling it a wicked religion. I can name many preachers who have bashed Muslims quite severely.
Attacking the honorable dress of Muslim ladies was a very bad move.
It was suppression of women by west.

But not on these forums. if you want to even the score, why not uise the exact same medium?

Quote:

Muslims haven't even stared to turn the table.

so, this is about revenge?

But we were also taught manners.

no need to constantly and repeatedly rub people's nose in it.

One of the reasons people accepted Islam was becasue of the manners of the prophet and the believers.

We should try to adopt those.

rantiong and raving like lunatics makes us look bad. not only that, it puts people off. Those who may be intwerested ni islam will have second thoughts.

I also find it calming to myself when I be courteous to others.

Besides these forums are a pretty mellow place.

Everyone makes mistakes, but I generally like the fact this place is calm.

I heard a convert once say "Thank God I discovered Islam before I discovered Muslims."

I don't feel this way myself, for me Muslims are the nicest peopl e I'v met in my life.

There are ofcourse wonderful people all all faiths and no faith, but in my experience there tends to be a higher percentage of lovely and honest ppl in the Muslim community than others.

I may be looking at the world through green-tinted spectacles!

"malik" wrote:

I think everyone can admit that in terms on morality, no other religion can show that they are better than Muslims. We do not exploit our women and let them be paraded semi-naked in the streets, on billboards, newspapers, and television. We value our women a lot more than any other nation or religion. [edit] too used to value their females 200 years ago but now they have torn their dress of modesty from them.

Hijab is a sign of modesty. We encourage our women to dress modestly. West tends to encourage them take it all off. Since the swinging 60s, western ladies have been really swinging it with multiple partners. They sleep around with almost anyone with no questions asked.

Muslim ladies appear so good in their scarfs and this makes [edit] a bit jealous because their men too wish that their daughters looked honourable rather than appear like tarts. When fathers cannot do anything about the indecent dresses of their own daughters they feel frustrated. Modestly dressed Muslims females reminds them of how badly dressed their own wives and daughters are. This make Christians very. That is why they try to make us dress like them. This is what we Muslims understand by the call to integrate. It simply means dress down. Show men a bit of flesh, like our wives do. I think this is disgraceful.

[b]Edit: You have already been given a warning. Any further 'christian-bashing' and your post will be deleted.
- The Moderate Mod.[/b]

no offence but da last paragraph is aload of crap!! if christians wanted 2 cover up or wanted their wives/daughters to cover then they would do it!!

its jst dat they dnt believe its rong not cover up!! if dats makes any sense!! they feel its more attractive!! nah i wouldnt blame the men i would actually blame the women!!

"malik" wrote:

Yes but tell me who other than Muslims dress their wives in hijab.
All I can see in Britain and America is that men of other faiths have totally abandoned the concept of covering up; and they have accepted the concept of dressing down.
I think its because they want to see flesh of wives of other men That is why they don't ask their own wives to dress modestly. Its shame on men.

Have you ever actually [i]been[/i] to America... or are you basing this purely off of smut TV and soft core pornographic movies?

Speaking of which why do you watch that stuff?

A couple things, - Men cover up here. That's actually a pretty big cultural thing. There is nothing more disgusting than some dark hairy grease ball walking around in tight clothes with an open shirt.

Nobody wants to see that.

Second, women dress modestly here - we're having a bit of trouble with the kids during that rebellious stage but they grow out of it. If you go to any major city in America women are dressed appropriately.

In the south life is a little different since it's so freaking hot - men wear shorts, women wear short skirts. There is nothing sexual about it unless you are some kind of pervert.

Incidentally in America we extend the concept of modesty to the way we talk... ie in day to day discussions we tend to avoid our favorite fetishes - you might want to take a page out of the USA handbook next time you decide to share with us your thoughts on tall women - just a thought.

As for your ridiculous comments about Christian women, do you actually know what the inside of a Church looks like or are you speculating? If you go to any Catholic Church in the South most of the women are dressed like muslims, right down to those hijab things my wife wears... I forget the word for it, something spanish.

Now, they don't wear Chadors, but that's because they don't need to. American men aren't so hormonal that the slightest sign of... anthropomorphism... sets them off - maybe that's something inherent to Iranis, I dunno... you're the ones who feel the need to share your height fetishes with the world.

Maybe all the radiation from the "clean energy" is pushing them over the edge.

I specifically wouldn't want a wife or girlfriend to cover her hair unless she insisted. Therefore I would not expect malik's praise.

"malik" wrote:

I did not know they covered up their women in America. If they do then thats very dignified of them. I thought that most girls dress like slags; [b]Madonna[/b] Beyounce and others which we all know. [b]I was watching sex in the city espisode[/b] and got a glimpse of the American way of life in New York. These women were going out hunting for men sleeping around with abousultely anyone they could find. They seemed to be sex starved. But Don has just told me that most women actually wear hijab and appear before other men in well modest dress. I didnot know that. This is so good to hear that their men have some sense of shame left in them. I am sorry if I got it wrong and hurt anyone with my wrong assumptions. You are right, we should not assume and blame things. Thank you don. I have never been to America.

One more thing is that i respect you that you have married an honourable woman to be your wife. If she wears scarf as you say than she is a good female and you are a good man for selecting her to be your wife. Good men make good choices. Bad men often select bad women. God gives good women to good men. This is what our holy Quran says.

Me and him might still not see eye to eye but one thing is sure, from today I have respect for don.

My wife doesn't wear a whatever that thing is called all the time, only in Church - it's something Catholic girls do, it's derived from St. Paul and I don't remember what they call them.

But wearing something on your head is not the be all end all of modesty. It might surprise you but contrary to what they tell you on "Sex and the City" :roll: American girls don't actually [i]like[/i] being leered. They like to feel pretty, but not like prostitutes. Thus they dress modestly, but still do up their hair or wear make up etc - since it is actually possible to be both modest and pretty at the same time - that's a little state I like to call "Class"

And has anybody ever suggested to you finding less trashy sources of entertainment?

It's like those disgusting arab princes that attend my school. They take all their ill gotten oil money to strip clubs, sleazy bars and nightclubs and come to the conclusion all american girls are loose whores.

What precisely did they expect to find in these places? Nuns??

To illustrate my point, this is a random picture of downtown Boston. Pay special attention to the people and what they are wearing.

[img]http://www.chetandjuliafagin.com/photos/victory1004/parade1.jpg[/img]

Notice how they are wearing clothing that is both modest and appropriate for the occasion (the Sox victory parade)? No David Hasselhoff's running around in those disgusting male bikinis, and no women wearing tight leather "hot pants" and ridiculously low cut smocks like Madonna.

Also notice how the girls, not that I'm saying they're ugly, but don't exactly look like Beyonce? ... Not exactly supermodels.

This is the difference between reality and fantasy, in fantasy-land everybody is beautiful and don't wear any clothes. In reality people are rather plain looking and what they wear is generally determined by the weather and if they plan on going out into public or not.

Thus at the beach you will see people wearing bikinis - it's a beach, what are you expecting?

Downtown you will find people fully dressed, possibly the only show of skin being the hands and below the knees if a girl is wearing a skirt - and of course a face and neck.

In Church people will probably be even more dressed up - usually in more expensive or formal clothing as a sign of respect to God. This is also the case with courtrooms or other formal - dress attire.

This is the actual city, not sex and the City.

Let me find a picture of New York, that's even more frightning. Most of the people there don't even speak English.

Here are some ugly New Yorkers wearing ugly American clothes

[img]http://www.stanford.edu/~wavelet/photos/Summer04/NewYork/NewYorkSkyline_...

[img]http://www.brooklynvegan.com/img/music/cbgb/sunday/press/7.jpg[/img]

[img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/01/01/us/madison600.jpg[/img]

Incidentally that is not one of our traditional American whorehouses off to the right, it's the greatest wing place on Earth "Buffalo Wild Wings".

We value meat much more than sexuality.

Because it's tasty.

Let's see if everybody has their clothes on in Central Park

[img]http://research.nianet.org/~radu/photos/2003/ny-central-park-2.jpg[/img]

Yes... yes it appears that they do.

[img]http://images.worldofstock.com/slides/PWO1230.jpg[/img]

Do [b][u]any[/u][/b] of these people look or dress like Sarah Jessica Parker or Madonna??

Of course not! Sarah Jessica Parker and Madonna don't even look like Sarah Jessica Parker and Madonna! Madonna is like a 40 year old woman, she goes through makeup for about 4 hours then somehow squeezes herself into those disgusting little tramp uniforms before she gets to the camera (then they digitally play around with it to remove wrinkles).

If you went around downtown New York wearing the stuff she does you'd be stared at, laughed at, and more than a few restaurants would politely ask you to observe their dress code or leave. (Yes, restaurants have dress codes).

In fact, New Yorkers are so pretentious that if you trolloped around in anything but one of those big heavy fashionable wool overcoats you'd be chastized for not observing NY dress manners.

Heh, I saw Madonna at a party once and she was VERY covered up, I think she had a room at the venue and wanted privacy. I only knew it was her because of everyone fussing.

lol stars understand privacy and modesty better than most people. We met Sarah Jessica Parker when we saw the Odd Couple (her husband is Felix), very nice girl, dresses her age when she's just out living.

I suspect stars dress like normal people so that we don't bother them.

"malik" wrote:

I believe that Islamic values on respect for women are far higher than western values.

West has abandoned all sense of shame. They exploit the bodies of their mothers daughters and sisters. They have long ago stopped wearing modest clothes.

[edit] and others are actually quite scared of Muslim women wearing Hijab. It reminds them how disgraceful their own women really are. This makes them angry at dignified appearance of Muslim females.

That is the real reason.

Please discuss your views.

[b]Edit: Unsubstantiated derogatory comments towards any religion will not be tolerated.
- The Moderate Mod.[/b]

What a truly hateful and disgusting person you are
It's muslims like you who give islam a bad name

Actually it's the more rational angry muslims that give muslims a bad name. People like Tex are so way out there that they achieve an independent stereotype status of their own.

Ya know how you can't say that crazy homeless guy mumbling to his imaginary dog gives all white people a bad name, because this guy is clearly off in his own dimension?

Same idea.