Straw asks Muslim women for veil rethink

You —

[quote][size=18]Straw asks women for veil rethink[/size]

[b]Muslim women in the UK who wear full veils make "better, positive relations" between communities "more difficult", Commons leader Jack Straw has said.[/b]

Concealing a face was "a visible statement of separation and of difference", the Blackburn MP wrote in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph.

He said he now asks women who have meetings with him to remove their veils so they can truly talk "face-to-face".

"My concerns could be misplaced, but I think there is an issue here," he said.

The MP for Blackburn - where Muslims make up about a quarter of the population - said: "The value of a meeting, as opposed to a letter or phone call, is that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say."

Mr Straw later told BBC Radio Lancashire that this was "an issue that needs to be discussed because in our society, we are able to relate, particularly to strangers, by being able to read their faces, and if you can't read people's faces, that does provide some separation".

He said he understood why some women wanted to be covered, citing a recent meeting with a constituent who "said she felt more comfortable when she was outside wearing the veil and she was less troubled by people".

"What I'm saying on the other side is, would those people who do wear the veil think about the implications for community relations," he said.

[b]'Selective discrimination'[/b]

Mr Straw was home secretary from 1997 to 2001, and then foreign secretary until 2005, a period which included the build-up to, and invasion of Iraq.

He said he always made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to remove their veil - and his constituents had so far always agreed when he had asked.

Mr Straw also said he defended the right for women to wear headscarfs - which, he said, was the issue in France which had led to recent controversy.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission claimed his request would lead to "selective" discrimination.

"It is astonishing that someone as experienced and senior as Jack Straw does not realise that the job of an elected representative is to represent the interests of the constituency, not to selectively discriminate on the basis of religion," said Massoud Shadjareh.

But Dr Daud Abdullah of the Muslim Council of Britain said it was up to individual Muslim women whether to wear the veil, adding he understodd the matter "does cause some discomfort to non-Muslim".

"Even within the Muslim community the scholars have different views on this.

"Our view is that if it is going to cause discomfort and that can be avoided then it can be done. The veil over the hair is obligatory."

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5410472.stm]BBC News[/url][/quote]

Forum

TEX — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 18:29

[quote="zara"][quote="Omrow"][quote="Mr Admin"]We do not mind if women wear next to nothing, [/quote]

I'm sorry, but I do.

I cannot stand anyone who shows more than 60% of her flesh.

At that point I need to sit down.[/quote]

to me it depends which 60% is showing.a bit of legs and arms are alright, but sometimes their tops are too low or skirts are too up.[/quote]

in some cultures women walking round topless is acceptable but showing the thighs is not...

not in our culture...

TEX — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 18:45

[quote="Abbas"]Why doesn’t Mr Straw ask prostitutes to “rethink” what they are wearing (or not in some cases). Society could quite easily say that if some people were not so under-dressed then the levels of rape would not be so high. Such an impact that would make on the “community” Mr Straw.[/quote]

Not tru

In the west the rapist is brought to justice

in the muslim countries the woman gets killed or punished

and if she was showing a bit of ankle - the muslims would blame the girl

there are MORE rape cases in muslim countries then in the west, coz men dont learn to control themselves, and are told that god made them that way, and they are not "immuned" to naked flesh, wheares in the west we are.

Pedophilia is not even recognised in muslim countries, and i know children that have been abused by muslims in muslim countries

The problem is not the west, its the muslim world.

Abbas — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 19:56

[quote="TEX"]are you immuned to naked flesh?

or is that question too personal?[/quote]

Again avoiding the point but we'll leave it at that for both our benefits.

yashmaki — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 21:34

assalamu alaikum,

i heard radio five today and frankly i've never heard so many outright racist callers in my entire life, they're really coming out of the woodworks.

It has made me wonder recenty if all this hatred really escalated from 9/11 and july bombings or if this hatred was already present in the mindset of many (not all) English ppl, but remained non volatile like a dormant volcano. I'd like to think the vast majority of british ppl are open minded, and tolerant to other beliefs but various events, incidences since 9/11 has made me think otherwise. The newsreaders always claim britian is amongst the most tolerant nation,embracing multi culturism. I used to think this was the case, but now i'm led to believe it was all a lie.

Yes britian lets other cultures and races enter and make their lives here but make them do so in their own little ghettos. their own little india and china towns. So long as these coloured folks don't mix with white ppl multi culturalism is fine. This has lead to ignorance. This ignorance has done nothing but fuelled more senseless hatred and today niqabi women are in the line of fire.

I wish i could be more optimistic but when i think of my parents telling me "one day these ppl will kick us out this is not our country" i'm beginning to think mm maybe they were right. Call me ridiculous insane or whatever but for quite a while i've not felt welcome here, the racist taunts, the daily insults in the media, and i wake up today to newspapers demonising the niqab, something i wear. It's very much a part of me. Free speech is fine and well but there's a boundary ppl don't seem to have respect for very much in life anymore anything is so called comedy. Unfortunately some pathetic muslims have joined this band wagon of clowns and they're regurgitating the same lies, misinformation and hatred.

It's one thing to disagree with the niqab but another to forcefully ban it simply because you're intimidated by it or dislike it. No one's asking anyone to like the way i dress, in this free society it's my right to dress how i choose. If it's ok to wear a bikini, mini skirt, salwar, kilt, stetson then it's darn well ok for me to wear a niqab. I'm not hurting anyone and i don't want sympathy from well wishers who think i'm being shackled by a man.

I think this simple fact of choice is incomprehensible to many non muslims. They simply can't fathom why a woman would wish to cover her body to such an extent, and since they can't understand, rather than researching the theological basis they resort to the easiest thing a man's tool to control women. Even a well educated muslim child could explain why women choose the veil without coming to such a pathetic insulting conclusion.

Sajid Iqbal — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 22:31

salaam

The Revival will be doing a LIVE DEBATE on this issue on THE LETS TALK SHOW on Saturday (tomorrow) at 10pm on Mashal Radio.

Pls tune in, phone in, text in as it will be live on the net: http://www.mashalradio.co.uk/1.html

The topic is: IS IT COS I IS MUSLIMS?

Issues that will be covered are: Jack Straws comments on removing the veil, veil and hijab in Islam, are muslims picked on, ar emuslims a soft target, or are muslims in denial, do they like playing the victim, why do muslims get upset on every single issue....etc.

So have your say ppl

wasalaam

p.s. BBC Northwest have emailed me asking if any sister wearing a niqab is happy to speak to them about Jack Straws comments. If anyone is interested then pls email or PM me.

khan — Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 23:08

I listened to radio 5 as well, and agree with yashmaki on the racist comments that were coming through.

I also heard that the government had issued a statement calling straws comments as "divisive" and does not reflect the position of the government on the issue.

I've spoken to several non muslims who have expressed the same sentiments in support of straw.

To be honest, it took very little effort to highlight the ignorance of the straw. I'm glad straw bought this up.

Its invoked a discussion point between Muslims and non Muslims, giving the Muslims a platform to present the concepts behind the Burka & Nikab, how Muslims (who are just as 'British' as non Muslims) have the rights to worhip Allah with as much devotion as they please. It gives us a platform to move onto concepts of obtaining peace by submitting oneself to the will of Allah which many non Muslims have no idea of.

Mr Straw is alright, he's highlighted to the British Muslim population the ignorance & hypocrisy of non Muslims of the acts of worship of their neighbours.

You — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 00:14

Live with a person for 40 years. Share their meals.

Then hold them over a volcano, and on that day you will meet the real person.

- Shan Yu

When times are good prejudices are hidden behind creature comforts.

However when trouble starts to arise that is when you see what really feel.

peacegirl — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 05:45

When i was in dubai................I saw many many women in the niqab. And in a muslim country they didn't stand out!! and the arab girls wear it with such style! stylish niqaabs with matching bags!! I was impressed. There are even designer shops. So don't get me wrong......I don't wanna dis it or anything!!! Just not here. And no jack straw wouldn't ask a woman in a mini skirt to wear a longer skirt before they talk. HE DOESN'T want to talk to her legs. For goodness sake......... jus try and see all sides of a story. :roll:

Be happy........ pray for peace..........try and get along.........you can't have everything. we live in the uk,,,, the government allows you to practice your religion. the school my son goes to have islamic assemblies.......we asked and they allowed it. They finish early on friday! We requested it. they allowed it!!! We change the half term holidays so we can fit in our eid! again we asked and again the school allowed! just don't push it. be happy for the freedom that we are given!

Seraphim — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 11:21

Very disturbing this move by Mr Straw.

I suspect he must have the support of other ministers as he doesnt have the balls to pull this stunt on his own.
Do i think muslims like playing the victim? No. I do not believe we do. We are certainly a proud people who are willing to stand up for what we believe in. It just so happens that muslims are getting attacked left right and center at the moment and this isn't just some little issue... no no no.
A little issue is 'What kind of takeout should we order tonight?' No, whats happening here is they are attacking a fundamental belief and practices inside Islam. A belief that possibly makes us stand out a bit more in general public... but no more so than a girl in a bikini or miniskirt... yet somehow thats not debated or questioned. The only difference between the two is a display of modesty and the other of immorality. Therefore it seems to me that Mr Straw and co prefer to degrade the morality of british society rather than preserving what modesty they have.

[quote="TEX"]there are MORE rape cases in muslim countries then in the west, coz men dont learn to control themselves, and are told that god made them that way, and they are not "immuned" to naked flesh, wheares in the west we are.[/quote]

I would love to see where you're getting that from... because from where im standing thats the biggest fabrication ive seen since Bush said Iraq had WMD. Bcoz from where im standing its very much the other way around: there are FAR MORE rape and SEXUAL assualt cases in the west then there are likely to be in Sharia enforced Muslim Countries, Why? Bcoz the penalty is far more harsher. The penalty is death. Under western law you'll get what 6-8 years... you'll serve 5 and get let out on parole. I think the punishment of death would certainly be a far greater deterant than spending 5 years behind bars. Im sure this will certainly be a comfort for the victims in the west. :roll:

A disturbing amount of British people have always been rascist... but they've kept quite about it. Why bcoz they need us as their work force. Its only when one or two people in power suddenly grow the balls to take a shot at the muslim people do all the wannabes jump on the band wagon.

Sajid Iqbal — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 13:41

[quote="saima786"]When i was in dubai................I saw many many women in the niqab. And in a muslim country they didn't stand out!! and the arab girls wear it with such style! stylish niqaabs with matching bags!! I was impressed. There are even designer shops. So don't get me wrong......I don't wanna dis it or anything!!! Just not here. And no jack straw wouldn't ask a woman in a mini skirt to wear a longer skirt before they talk. HE DOESN'T want to talk to her legs. For goodness sake......... jus try and see all sides of a story. :roll:

Be happy........ pray for peace..........try and get along.........you can't have everything. we live in the uk,,,, the government allows you to practice your religion. the school my son goes to have islamic assemblies.......we asked and they allowed it. They finish early on friday! We requested it. they allowed it!!! We change the half term holidays so we can fit in our eid! again we asked and again the school allowed! just don't push it. be happy for the freedom that we are given![/quote]

some good points made there...i agree with most of them.
personally i think niqab is bad for dawah in the UK.... and now 95% of non Muslims are behind Jack Sraw on this issue.... and its Islam that suffers.
BUT... still no one has any right to tell any woman how to dress in public. If its not against the law then you have a right to wear it.

The issue is not about Remove your veil so i can see your facial expressions, it is now: GET RID OF THAT NIQAB BECAUSE IT IS ANTI-BRITISH, UNCOMFORTABLE, CREATES DIVISION, ISOLATION.....IF YOU WANT TO LIVE HERE THEN RESPECT OUR CULTURE AND VALUES OTHERWISE GO TO A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!!!
this is how most non muslims feel about this issue now...

before we know it attempts will be made by MP's to ban it!

then what? hijab?beard?salwaar kameez? jilbaab?
THAT IS WHY I THINK IF WE COMPROMISE ON THIS... ONE BY ONE OUR ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES WILL DISSAPPEAR.
Muslims need to be united on this....
............................................................................................................
by the way those of you who heard the radio 5 live debate can u either post some of teh comments made or PM me pls.... as i can use some of the points made in the Lets Talk Show tonight.

TEX — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 14:15

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"]

The topic is: IS IT COS I IS MUSLIMS?
[/quote]

excuse me Mr Editor u stole that from the title of my thread, it is copyrighted :twisted:

u will be hearing from my lawyer soon :twisted:

[quote="Seraphim"]
I would love to see where you're getting that from... [/quote]

its called life experience

[quote]because from where im standing thats the biggest fabrication ive seen since Bush said Iraq had WMD. Bcoz from where im standing its very much the other way around: there are FAR MORE rape and SEXUAL assualt cases in the west then there are likely to be in Sharia enforced Muslim Countries, Why? Bcoz the penalty is far more harsher. The penalty is death. Under western law you'll get what 6-8 years... you'll serve 5 and get let out on parole. I think the punishment of death would certainly be a far greater deterant than spending 5 years behind bars. Im sure this will certainly be a comfort for the victims in the west. :roll:[/quote]

When it comes to islam, muslim countries pick`n`mix

i can garantee u almost all girls who are raped in muslim countries are killed. Ur from the indian subcontinent and u r totally oblivious of what happens in the mid-east.

let me quote what u sed in the past:

[quote="Serephim"]In non-muslim countries half-naked women are available for viewing easily. In muslim countrys this is not so which is [b]why their may be a tendancy to stare more are women when they're out; regardless if they're covered or not.[/b][/quote]

please see this article: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1874191,00.html

Yashmaki i dont believe we will be kicked out.

See the niqab from thier point of view, its intimidating, and somewhat creepy, especially in a country where we are branded as terrorists.

To them its a threat, my dialogue on the previos page just shows sum of the problems it causes...

TEX — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 15:11

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"][quote="TEX"]guys he ASKED and did NOT demand[/quote]

when did u become his P.R. Man :lol:[/quote]

C'mon saj da guy sed nowt wrong

i am surprised u r angry wid his comments

u wont exactly sympathetic to da lass that wanted to where a jilbab at school

all well respected scholers say it is fard

"salwar kameez" is a Pakistani dress and NOT an islamic one

Niqab is more modest then the jilbab, yet ur advocating for it to be worn, but not for the jilbab being worn at school, now are u just being ironic?

You — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 15:19

As a minister he is in a position of power.

When he requests (and not demands) something like that, he is still limiting people's rights.

and now it seems his words have resulted in some sister being attacked. Bravo.

Sajid Iqbal — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 15:25

[quote="TEX"][quote="TheRevivalEditor"][quote="TEX"]guys he ASKED and did NOT demand[/quote]

when did u become his P.R. Man :lol:[/quote]

C'mon saj da guy sed nowt wrong

i am surprised u r angry wid his comments

u wont exactly sympathetic to da lass that wanted to where a jilbab at school

all well respected scholers say it is fard

"salwar kameez" is a Pakistani dress and NOT an islamic one

Niqab is more modest then the jilbab, yet ur advocating for it to be worn, but not for the jilbab being worn at school, now are u just being ironic?[/quote]

the shabana begum issue is totally seperate
i was argueing school uniform is the same for everyone, and the school allowed headscarf and clothing that completely fitted the islamic dress code

this issue is what women wear in public! i dont think women should wear niqab in UK but it is THEIR choice and THEIR decision - NOT jack straw!!!!

An MP has a go at muslim women and muslims are making excuses for him- shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and TEX tell the muslim sister wearing a niqab who got attcked that Jack Straw was right!!!!

TEX — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 15:38

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"]
the shabana begum issue is totally seperate
i was argueing school uniform is the same for everyone, and the school allowed headscarf and clothing that completely fitted the islamic dress code[/quote]

nope salwar kameez is not modest enough

the jilbab is COMPULSERY

[quote] i dont think women should wear niqab in UK but it is THEIR choice and THEIR decision - NOT jack straw!!!![/quote]

but he just ASKED because HE saw it intimidating and sed it was a problem

[quote]An MP has a go at muslim women and muslims are making excuses for him- shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
he made a valid point - and not something that should be ignored

[quote]and TEX tell the muslim sister wearing a niqab who got attcked that Jack Straw was right!!!![/quote]

i wud if i saw her

but saying that by no means do i justfiy the attack

PS i is judda incase u dont remember :roll:

latifah — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 15:54

[quote="salaf"]

I'm quite shocked that he has turned this into a public issue.

What possible point is there in him revealing what he does in meetings with his constituents. It is clearly a ploy to get himself attention. The fact that he felt it necessary to bring this out I find more insulting than that he feels intimidated by the niqab.

[/quote]

I agree with Salaf. This should be a minor issue.

A few comments in an obscure small town newspaper have suddenly become front page news and dominated all TV bulletins for 2 days.

Jack straw probably intends to run for the Labour leadership, this is him staking his claim for Blair’s throne.

He’s “standing up to the extremists” to please the right wing media and keep them away David Cameron’s Tory lot.

Sajid Iqbal — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 16:02

[quote="TEX"][quote="TheRevivalEditor"]

PS i is judda incase u dont remember :roll:[/quote]
[b]
OH GOD! WHY DID I WASTE MY EFFORT THEN? AS REPLYING TO JUDDA IS COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME[/b]

salaf — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 16:51

[quote="latifah"][quote="salaf"]

I'm quite shocked that he has turned this into a public issue.

What possible point is there in him revealing what he does in meetings with his constituents. It is clearly a ploy to get himself attention. The fact that he felt it necessary to bring this out I find more insulting than that he feels intimidated by the niqab.

[/quote]

I agree with Salaf. This should be a minor issue.

A few comments in an obscure small town newspaper have suddenly become front page news and dominated all TV bulletins for 2 days.

Jack straw probably intends to run for the Labour leadership, this is him staking his claim for Blair’s throne.

He’s “standing up to the extremists” to please the right wing media and keep them away David Cameron’s Tory lot.[/quote]

Exactly.

And this in a week where a muslim owned dairy was being constantly attacked. Couldn't he think of anything more important to raise.

TEX — Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 19:47

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"][quote="TEX"]PS i is judda incase u dont remember :roll:[/quote]
[b]
OH GOD! WHY DID I WASTE MY EFFORT THEN? AS REPLYING TO JUDDA IS COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME[/b][/quote]

dude u serious? 😢