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Well there you have it - no perverted emails to lilsis or anybody. Are you 15 yet?
as for us not feeling as threatened as you do, oh the irony. wake up! you're white, you're christian, you're the majority! this was one rare case, but it happens to children from minorities all the time. which is why i posted in the previous thread: '"invading a persons home changing their children and using bullying social pressures to cement it" [what you said] is exactly wot is happening to people of other faiths/cultures living in the West - parents are struggling to keep their children on what they (the parents) perceive to be the right path due to social pressure placed on the kids to conform...'
your reply wasn't half as fiery then, lemme guess, maybe [i]you[/i] didn't feel threatened by this? because it doesn't affect you or your children. kids of other faiths or races are faced with peer pressure to conform throughout their school lives. you're lucky your kids will not have to go through this to the extent other children do. just make sure you don't go and live in an area which is majority Moslem. :roll: yes, you see that 'again and again' [i]on other forums[/i] muslims believe children are born with 'fitrah' - a natural inclination towards good. and from then onwards, their family and their environment mould them into what they will later be - a saint or a murderer or whatever, the point remains that they were born completely pure. some people wish to express this by saying all kids are born 'muslim', but being muslim involves faith in the five pillars among other things and i don't think babies think of all that, so i would just say they're born with fitrah. in my opinion children do not really have a religion, even those children brought up in a non-Muslim family who die before they reach puberty are admitted to Paradise. when children reach puberty they are old enough to decide and make the choice, to accept or reject the religion they were brought up with. i don't think it's a 'little incident', because a family was affected by it. you sure do have a right to 'demand answers' but don't make assumptions about the way we all think and then expect answers, thats just plain condescending.
now, i would like to clarify what i actually thought of the documentary in question as i havent actually had a chance to do so, i was too busy refuting some of dave's points and the manner in which he chose to express them. i must say i was cheesed off (to put it mildly) when not only dave but seema/laila too made assumptions about my views on the incident. you could've asked me to clarify but no, it's much easier to just go ahead and lump me with the 'bad guys'. :roll:
when i watched the docu, it was clear to me that the kids were subject to peer pressure and i was discussing it with a bro of mine whose initial reaction was 'isn't it great!'. i thought the racism that existed in the community was terrible, and if they had been more open, the boys wouldn't have adopted their 'pakis vs. porkies' attitude. whilst boys tend to rebel under peer pressure, girls give in more easily and that's what i thought happened to amy and her cousin. however with ashlene, i wasn't too sure because it all seemed to have come from her - she said she went to the mosque to get some info about islam (not that she was forced to go) and was clearly sulking after her mom pulled her out, to the point where her mom was forced to put her back in. if the imam and muslim girls had treated her so badly, and 'attacked' her as you say dave, i doubt she would've been so keen to go back. she had a choice, she was old enough to make it. although i think ashlene knew what she was doing, it was wrong for them to be renamed without their mother's consent, that was clearly a cultural thing as latifah says, because non-muslims don't even have to change their names when they accept Islam (unless it means 'God' or 'sun-worshipper' or something). so overall i am not in favour of what happened, i totally agree with latifah's points about it being a bit of islam with a lot more culture mixed in that the family were subjected to, and i think we need to stop ghetto-ising our communities and start dealing with the racism that exists within them.
wassalaam.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Wow excellant post Dust!
i agree i always knew what dave was like :twisted:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
mashaALLAH Dust. a very impressive post - may ALLAH put barakah in it - ameen.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
some of u guys have been watching a bit too much tv :roll:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
No more "Mr Nice Guy" Lol
Mashallah, Dust.
The media, government, tried to blow us, but they can't out the flame, or doubt the name.
i may as well throw my thoughts in to this now....
just a couple of things
firstly, i pretty much agree with what dust said, and especially what Latifa said....she got it bang on right, they moved to bradford.....the most pakistani area you can think off, and they felt pressure etc....and there was a lot of cultre in that video. and about being born 'muslim'....Shaykh Hamza also gives the view of the stage of fitrah
secondly, you are slightly overreacting dave, its hardly likely its gona happen to you kids. at a young age, i dont condone it at all, but when they are able to realise, then its different.....if they convert to islam through no pressure and at a mature age, your kids or tony blairs kids, subhanallah i say. in the video, her mum hardly cared.....why do you care so much about those kids? none of us know the real situation with them.
thirdly, maybe you all missed it on purpose, but it was a wahaabi mosque...which explains a lot
Its hardly the style of the Sunni's, its a tablighi thing to go around telling people to conver or go to hell
fourthyly, i think it was MS who said quite rightly, just because a few forum folks are praising the video, doesnt mean anything. no scholars, imams, ulama, shaykhs, students of islam, use forums, especially for islamic purposes.....most are jus kids....who see 'young muslims converting' and throw subhanallah's around without even studying the video
cant really remember what else i was gona say, but cant really be bothered
your all goin crazy over nowt
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
whateva.
Astagfirullah, what have you experienced the tablighi jamaat say that ?
by the way the tablighi jamaat arent wahaabis :roll:
50-50's, all the same thing
point was, mainstream traditional islam dont adpot these approaches
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Latifah and other folks who agree that indo pak culture is arrogant - dont u see what i put in my first post answering Latifah it is not the culture that is arrogant but those few sects which condone tableeg by any means
What has culture to do with reciting the Kalimah
you say especially Shazan that Indo-pak culture subjugates Islam. Now if you people were in touch with your own roots and actually respected them ie the cultural roots of your parents and did not think you were superior to your own parents you would realise that culture never dictates Islam. culture may dictate a way of life but never Islam.
Islam is independent of such dilution. if people are acting in a certain way contradictory to Islam then they are clearly not following Islamic principles but cultural ones.
thus there is no such thing and can never be such a thing as Latifah names it 'cultural Islam'
again i repeat certain factions do act as if they should convert whomever
and Shazan you must understand that there are protocols to follow before we embark on Tableeg we cannot go out like Jehovahs witnesses and force people into submission willy nillly. Tableeg has to be gentle and the best tableeg is by our own actions ie living as muslims so people themselves wish to convert.
there is a way to overcome this self hatred ie hatred of ones roots and that is to come to terms with it and to acknowledge it and embrace it and to work with it as a practicing Muslim ie let us mould our culture to fit in with Islam. we are so lucky to have roots and a rich history - all peoples of the world have their own roots let us not destroy ours through foolishness and hatred for our parents culture.
if we break our own ties then what respect have we for other cultures
:? i wonder how you'd react if someone said Minhaj wasn't Sunni. tablighi jamaat have done a lot of good work in the muslim community, Allah alone knows how many they lead back to the straight path and how many converted thanks to them.
'wahhaabism' and 'tablighi jamaat' are simply sects within Sunnism just like deobandi or barelwi. most wahhaabis are from the hanbali school of thought, whilst tablighi jamaatis are mostly hanafi, they are not the 'same thing' at all. please be careful when speaking about your fellow muslims, there wasn't even a need to bring those sects into this topic.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Dust may i add all the sects or sub sects have different methods personally i do not agree with the hard sell approach no matter who employs it - this is what is called arrogance and frankly stupid
salaam seems (is it ok if i keep calling you that, too used to it?)
i'm too tired to reply to your post now, but i did feel like it contained some contradictions, will post later inshaAllah (although i trust latifah will do a better job of explaining her point).
just wanted to say though - please don't insult jehovah's witnesses. the one's i've met are perfectly lovely people and my jehovah's witness friend comes down to my house once in a while and we have a chat over tea about religion.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
i'm not insulting them they do employ the hard sell that is their way they are told to do this so it is ok for them to employ it but not ok for Muslims to do the same
yup that was my reason for including them, their approaches to converting people
how would i react if someone said that? lol, laugh thats what
im entitled to my views on them, all the same bunch in my eyes
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Tabligi Jamaat are not strictly a sect. They are a Deobandi organisation.
The jamaat tabligh share the same ideology as the school of deoband , of course the founder of tablighi jamaat was a deobandi scholar, as a sect belong to the ahl us-sunnah wal-jamaah , by madhab hanafi and in conduct sufis ,
So its the extreme so called islam that do, i wonder who they are in your eyes :evil: :evil:
If my brelawi husband came up with something like what U said i dunno how i'd react :x
wacko.
whatever. you're stereotyping.
yeh beast, true that tablighi jamaat was an organisation founded by a deobandi but over the years they have pretty much evolved into their own independant group.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Thankyou
And Thankyou again
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Laila.....
I was trying (still trying) to get across two main points. Sorry for repeating myself again.
[b]1: The difference between culture/customs and Islam
2: The problem of racism among Britain’s Muslims.[/b]
[b]1:[/b]
The clearly are differences in the culture and traditions among Muslims.
The culture of a Nigerian Muslim is not the same as that of a Pakistani.
Turkish culture is not the same as Indonesian and so on.
Some people are unable – or unwilling – to see a difference between their culture and customs and Islam. This leads to a snobbish attitude to other Muslims from different backgrounds with different traditions.
If you read the “cut the culture” article (by Muslim sister I think?) in the current Revival magazine you can see this issue discussed from an Asian perspective.
Then there is the documentary where the kids were taught more about a particular culture (in this instance Pakistani) than religion. It was the case of a majority group pushing their culture onto the minority. As Dust has said this is a reverse of the situation many minorities have faced when living in Britain. This leads onto the second point which I see as about racism rather than sectarian differences.
[b]2:[/b]
You don’t seem to be able to look beyond the “Asian Muslims are seen as arrogant” part at the start of my original post on this topic. I have explained that this is a view that is held by a regrettably large number of non-Asian Muslims that I have spoken to. It is felt by that some Asians look down on us because of culture differences. You don’t seem to have noticed this part of my previous comments.
If you don’t believe me then I can only suggest you talk to a Somali (or a Kosovan, or a Turk, or a Kurd) about the way they were treated by the longer established Muslim communities when they first came to Britain. It too many instances it was hostility and suspicion rather than brotherhood.
Then look at the fact that many Mosques’ are segregated on ethnic lines, with Imam’s who can only speak their own language. Hardly helps create a sense of brotherhood. Look at Shazan’s example of his friend who, upon accepting Islam, was told to learn Urdu, which to me is absurd.
Now I understand that this might not be [b][i]intended[/i][/b] to come across as arrogant, but it is often [i][b]perceived[/b] [/i]as arrogant by others. This is why I said you can view the perception as “fair or unfair”. However what you can’t do is claim that the perception doesn’t exist. It does.
Salaam
I tried to watch the video. On my 56k connection I managed to watch about 4 maybe 5 minutes. My internet connection also times out/disconnectsa every two hour block its been on line so basically I don't think mI'll be wqatching it iunless I get access to a broadband comp.
secondly, from my experiance with Jehovas Witness' (and only one) it was weird being approached and questioned and talked to a little bit at the bus stop. But nothing really invasive and certainly the guy was very polite.
Thirdly, I wish my Imam would bribe me with pizza to come to mosque...or cool blue top milk. mmm.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
i watched the video a while back..
To pick up on all the mallarcy from the first page of this thread about the Imam bribing the kids with pizza? I honestly can't remember an Imam bribing the kids with Pizza.. I must have missed that bit.. please tell me which minute its on and I'll refresh my memory.
the only part i remember about any pizza was when the girl read a Surah from the Qur'an mashAllah. It was in their local takeaway which was owned by Muslims.
As soon as the worker in the Pizza store heard her recite he was gobsmacked to see a white english girl recite from the Qur'an so well. To be honest her recitation is much better than a lot of Muslim adults I've heard.
Anyways. the pizza man was so happy with what he experienced that he told everyone that the pizza is on the house. He WASNT an Imam. He did not brainwash her into Reverting.
I'm really not sure if you guys watched the same film as me.. or whether you just skipped through it.. because there are too many innacuracies in ur observations.
Correct me If I'm wrong, but wasn't it the mother who let her kids enroll at the Mosque again?? Didn't the Imam send her back home because they were trying to arrange a female teacher??
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Latifah apologies
yes you are right i concede on every point my head wasnt thinking about the whole issue. i agree we as the asian majority should be doing more to befriend the muslim minorities. our mosques should be bilingual like the Arab/ english mosques in London etc
if we go on ignoring and pushing people away we are going to have so much unrest and trouble.
however we can only begin to do this if we put our own internal differences aside and become united for instance in our area we have tablighi mosques and brelvi mosques whose members do not get on even though they might even be from the same family.
once we establish some ground rules and start talking to each other we may be able to put our differences aside and unite then we can invite our non asian muslim brothers and sisters into our mosques - we should be inviting them into our homes already and making friends with them and every newcomer Muslim.
about the Urdu issue yes many asians feel that their children should learn the language to keep links with family in Pakistan and their asian culture.
because they are so used to being in the majority in many areas they never felt the need to teach other languages. however many are realising that they need to include other members of their muslim community as well as young asians who do not speak urdu and are asking for english speaking molvi's. if there is sufficient interest in any other language then they might try to set up a program for that too.
however amongst the elders (not all) it is a commonly held belief that indo/pak muslims follow the Quran and sunnah more closely then some other Muslim countries and they do not want dilution from others. i'm sure that many others of other countries also hold this view.
[b]Retracted [/b]
Or it may be because some people deliberately try to misunderstand what others do, and casue disunity where there was none before. Astaghfirullah.
:twisted:
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
[b]Retracted [/b]
Can I have more info about what you mean...
I have an inkling, but I do not like to get into a 'debate' over misunderstandings... does both parties a disservice.
PS Hajj is not fardh on those who cannot afford it, so nothing neds to be done in 'place' of it.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Do you have any actual proof that this is a generally accepted 'Brelwi' practice or are you just going on hearsay and propganda?
Hey he said it convincingly enough, so he must be right!
Afterall we have never been encouraged to visit graves or grave yards.
The bit I do not understand is what that has to do with hajj.
So I am asking for a clarification. Just need to know wether he actually knows anything, or is just big on fatwas, which themselves are a symtom of what he trying to prevent, namely disunity and infighting. - Astaghfirullah.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
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