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u tell em sweety
but there's no getting thru to arrogant ppl
I hadn't thought about that... That's true and in my absolute rage I completely looked over it. The original documentary wasn't about Islam or even this particular family, it was about race - the "flip side of the coin," and even in the cut down version you can still tell that Islamic identity = Asian, like that business about hijabbing herself so they wouldn't know she was white and they'd think she was a "Muslim," and that business about porkies and pakis.
And in a round about way that does answer my earlier question concerning boundaries and such.
But what about the legions of islamic forums celebrating this? You're the first one to point out the decidedly Asian swing, everywhere else on the internet it's greeted with "alhamdulilah!" - they can't all be Asian.
There are two and only two issues here, proselytizing to children and coercion. We all know the Islamic doctrine on coercion so there is no sense answering that, but what does Islam say with regards to targeting children for conversion? I'm deeply disturbed by that "parents only make them nonmuslims" stuff - where does that come from anyway?
Was that judged to be anti-Semitic? An accurate critique on “God’s” choosing people.
I haven’t shift blame, and I have never been shy to critics, providing I know what I’m talking about. Are you fimilar with the riots in Mannheim? Are you prepared to overlook this volatile situation orchestrated by NF, which has lead to ethnic resentment Before it was “Paki’s” to blame, now…. Cunningly Paki has been replaced by Muslim
Yes I have seen the documentary I posted, and since this topic was split- I havent commented on the other oh so similar documentary you posted.
If I have, I'm guilty then
I disagree with deviant minhaj. But none of that was evident with these two sisters and it was their own free will and curiosity, which lead them to learn about Islam and accept it.
Read the above. None of what you have mention is self evident in Ashley case. No need for me to comment or speculated on that point you’ve raised.
[b]First, let me point out: Muslims do not convert anybody. Allah decides who becomes or who does not become a Muslim. All what we can do is to give information and call to Islam.[/b]
Hmmm, an ambiguous question, would one stop donating blood because ones fear of syringes? knowing full well what the greater purpose is….. No! That wouldn’t deter me the slightest. More relevant to your question, if a child ask me why do you have a beard and why are you wearing funny cloths- then I would be obligated to answer him/her. If he or then asked me, can I come to the masjid then I would happily accompany him/her.
[b]Allah guides whom He wills [/b]
No. My source is you. [b]Wallahi [/b]
Again- if Beast judged my comments to be anti-Semitic – then he should edit then and ban me. May Allah curse them thousand times.
Theirs a Surah in Al Qur'an called Bani Israel it starts with Bismillah-hir-Rahmaan-nir-Raheen
The Name of The Compassionate and The Name of The Merciful.
Should we not pray for Mercy and Compassion instead?
I will.
Dave: Targetting Children and prosletzing to them is not what we should do. As Shazaan says, answering their questions and if they desire accompanyment to the Mosque; then that too is fine.
To quote Layla, we don't need to stoop to low levels. Its bad for the posture and dishonours the Deen.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Sura 17:4 And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
[b]I'm praying for a third.[/b] Ameen.
constantine what is wrong with you. :? med is right in one thing - your true colours have come out on this thread. i never thought you were capable of making some of the disgraceful insults you made here. on the previous thread which addressed the same topic, you were your usual polite self - why the sudden change?
since posting on the old thread i have watched the documentary in question and either you've completely forgotten what you watched or chosen to 'edit' your memory of it, because half of what you say happened is pure insinuation.
please tell me you were kidding when you wrote that. they got a free pizza from a young muslim lad who was amazed at amy's recitation of the Quran. i doubt the imaam works at a pizza parlour. :roll:
i agree with latifah and dawud's views on this thread, which funnily enough suggests i agree with you too dave, but i am shocked by the manner in which you chose to express yourself. usually your arguments are well thought out and well put, here its just like a massive rant based on a few facts, and many assumptions.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
shazan you should be ashamed of yourself. what authority do you have to be doing tafseer of quranic verses, or in this case, taking them totally out of context?! astaghfirullah.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
That isn’t commentary, I posted none. I just want Israelites to be punish again.
Have I upset all the pacifist?
I want to see the destruction of Israel more then the Iranian president.
Arab leaders around the Palestinian and Lebanese borders need to be anniliated likewise, their silence is deafening to the heart and mind of the people
Shazan bruv - regarding Surah Banee Isra'eel I would advise you listen to the Al Aqsa series of 10+ audio tapes by Mawlana Riyadh ul Haq Sahib - its excellent.
I am no mufassir and I do not lay claims to having an opinion on the Quran.
Following on from the verse you quoted ALLAH goes on to mention in detail regarding these two periods of transgression and then concludes the whole narrative with:
"May be your Lord would bestow mercy upon you. And if you returnt then We shall return. And We have made Jahannam a prison for the disbelievers"
According to many Ulama this above verse is a promise or declaration of a sunnah of ALLAH. He ta'ala reminds Yahud of how twice they were punished and are warned away from this behaviour.
SubhanALLAH the ulama mention how eleoquent ALLAH azza wa jal expresses Himself in this verse - that if the Bani Israeel return to their injustices and transgressions then ALLAH to will return - meaning that ALLAH the natural consequence of the rebellion of these people will be their subsequent punishment and history bears testimony that again and again dhillah and ruswai have been meted on the transgressors.
The ulama mention that this punishment/chastisement has been promised in the world - ie akhirah is obvious that justice will be done - but here ALLAH azza wa jal mentions that their punishment is in this world too - and finally the conclusion to ALL this is hte reminder that the Hellfire is waiting for those who wish to occupy it - May ALLAH save us from the like thereof.
Finally - Fasbir li hukmi Rabbil Alameen.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
by asian you mean Pakistani. slurring the 'Paki' is an ongoing British tradition 'dirty Paki' and so on.
despite this we have kept our chin up. pride in one's culture is not a bad thing. Because there is pride and a visible display of keeping cultural values this does not make us arrogant. we have an identity of which we are proud - well most of us. people of all cultures should also be proud of their traditions
religion on the other hand should take precedent but this does not mean that those cultural values that do not contradict Islam should be banished.
However there is a certain arrogance in the various Muslim sects be they Pakistani or Arabic etc who do believe that their path should be enforced and thus they become arrogant.
Only becomes conflicting when more emphasis to follow teachings and traditions of ones culture to that of Allah teachings in the Quran and practices of the Sunnah. And Quran and Sunnah is not compromisable to village customs and as for pride, if one has an atoms of pride then they won’t enter Jannah.
I'm having kids in 6 months and am insulted/disgusted/infuriated at this celebration of brainwashing. I don't particularly care if you or anyone else is "disgraced" by my complete abhorrence of this attack, if they were Muslim children you would be just as furious.
Moreover, last time you all said that the concept of deliberately converting children is wrong. However when the exact same idea (even same situaiton) is repackaged with an "Islam is winning" framework Muslims all over the place are suddenly extatic - look at Dawuds comments on the last page back, he said at first when he didn't know it was the same documentary he thought "great!" but now that he knows it's just "The Last White Kids" and the fact that I'm obviously furious the tune is altered.
And save the "true colors" garbage - that goes for all of you. I'm no hypocrite and I'm not going to appease you with "understanding" and praise where I do not see any reason to extend it. This whole episode is disturbing and above all insulting.
Are you kidding me? The only possible way you couldn't get those signals is if you're watching with blinders on, me and almost every last reviewer of the last white kids has said the same thing about the movie. It is a disturbing attack period - the Imam changed her name for God's sake!
Forgive my cultural ignorance over the details of who constitutes an Islamic authority, we're talking about a movie I haven't seen in months. The point is, they were throwing biscuits for good behavior in an environment that if they did not do precisely that they would face their brothers fate - daily beatings at school. This is coercion.
Well the fact of the matter it's not exactly the same for you as it is for me now is it? I'm the non-Muslim, I'm the one who is going to have non-Muslim children, and just like you I'm going to want to bring my children up in my own religion. If I see a threat to that I'm going to be a little "displeased." I can't help but think that you and every other member that walks away from this movie with the miraculous conclusion that everything was super, or doesn't feel as threatened as I do - might just be a little more sympathetic to the result than they let on.
And let's do a little exercise - go back to page one of this when I pointed out this is "the Last White kids." My first comment is exactly the same tone I used last time, ticked but curious. Where do I get really pissed off?
Yea, that's right the old "only parents make their kids non-muslims" line Med through out. Was I pissed off because Med was acting like Med, idiotic? No - I expect as much, how else do I usually get along with him? The reason I am outraged is that I see that again and again and again, in some form or another. It's the reason you say "revert" instead of "convert." But even more disturbingly I just read that exact line on another forum discussing this video - what does that tell me? There is more to this than I am being told and was told back then. There is a whole doctrine on the topic! I don't care what the original context of the doctrine was, it can CLEARLY be extended to proselytizing to children so I want to know EXACTLY what the rules are from the Islamic standpoint rather than the usual brushoff "Oh dave, that's just a few nasty people - just ignore it"
Spare me the "calm down and don't make a big deal out of this little incident" rhetoric, I have every right to be furious and to demand answers and action.
Wasn't the docu edited with alot of the offending material, shall we say, removed?
If it was repackaged and edited it would obviously arouse a different reaction.
People don't always appreciate that a rock by any other name is still a rock. Why do you think phrases like 'Death Tax' and 'redeployment' are used by those in power? They know that using diffrent words makes people think and react differently.
Quite anti-semitic, but at least you're out and proud now.
You just brought up riots in Mannheim to answer for how you don't shift blame, was that meant to be ironic?
Yes I have seen the documentary I posted, and since this topic was split- I havent commented on the other oh so similar documentary you posted.[/quote]
Anyone else who saw the original documentary (preferrably a Muslim since there is a natural suspicion against us Kaffir, now that "our true colors have shown")
You didn't answer the question - and what does Minhaj have to do with any of this?
So school beatings for Jake and a desire on Amy's part to no longer be "white" but appear "Muslim" for appeasement doesn't trigger anything?
So via your "syringe example" your answer then is a clear no.
Impossible, answer the question honestly.
The rules do not have anything about anti-Semitism. New question bumping off of this:
Under what moral precept do you presume to run arround accusing people of racism and islamophobia when you yourself are violently prejudiced against a group purely for their race?
That's why I asked about the principle - not the circumstances. The only reason I discussed the coerciveness of this at all was in refutation of Shazan's "points." My question concerns Muslims proselytizing to children, why when I brought up the whole documentary last time, and when it was discussed on the Old forum (by Muslims when I was not there) and you could clearly see coercion, why then did so many Muslims say "that is wrong," and now three years later with a different title but same premise - turning children into Muslims, is it greeted with such fanfare across the expanse of Islamic forums on the internet.
I'm starting to think it's all a matter of presentation. Almost anyone who saw the original doc would be jarred by what happened, the presentation was as such that it was the focus of the documentary, and from a PR angle its not so good for Muslims. The new doc is religious propaganda, basically described in miraculous terms and is distributed as such, but the basic premise is still the same converting children to Islam.
And we are talking about converting children - let's be clear there. This was not answering a "few little questions," the children have qurans which they recite (and know how to), hijabs, have had their names changed. This goes well beyond an info-session.
I think I was misunbderstood:
I did not actually watch the video, because I'm 56k dial up internet so decided not to.
The comments around the link described the video:
So I thought "Thats really good." But I didn't comment.
Then when I read posts contrary to those comments I thought "Not good." and so I posted.
Now I'm thinking of watching the video... :?
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
looooooooooool. This is hilarious.
Neem ke patthey ko shehat mein dubaa do phir bhi woh karwa hi raheta hai.
Even if you dip the neem leaf in honey, it will remain sour.
Dave your coming from the view of a xian. The fact is Islam is true - calling creation to Islam is truth and righteousness - and your right I would be outraged if a kafir trieed (and actually they DO try a hell of a lot) to convert muslims but my outrage is justified because the xian missionary calls towards the hellfire- whereas the muslim da'ee calls towards the Garden.
Quite simple really. :twisted:
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Actually I think I read you telling us something like that about three weeks back in one of the threads. I skimed it it so can't remember the details, but I 'm pretty sure its public domain.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
If you say so Dawud, I apologize for saying you lied there Shazan.
... and I gotta watch how many personal details I give away online.
No, not simple. The part about calling to hellfire is not valid to non-Muslims...because its a part of Imaan and Imaan is the thing which [i]distinguishes[/i] Muslims from non-Muslims.
You don't tell girls that "boys are better than girls." or vice versa, becasue a girl is not in a position to objectively judge being a boy, and vice versa.
Whilst Muslims have not actually seen heaven and hell, or The Angels AS (Usually) or Allah SWT (Usually) or The Messengers AS or The Four books or The last day noe been in a position to SEE divine fate being controlled By Allah SWT we try to have an Imaan such that we have total conviction of these things anyway.
Is a non-Muslim by his way of life supposed to have these convictions? No, thus your calling to righteousness versus calling to hellfire is not a valid point to put before a non-Muslim. I think.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Your doing the old "both sides of the arguement" bit and thats all very ncie but lets deal with facts. The muslims call to the Garden and to the worship of one ALLAH, the non-muslims call to the Hell and to the worship of other than ALLAH.
Whether you or I accept this doesnt bear any significance because truth is not dependent on people believing/accepting it - it exists as a necessity.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
No, by asian I mean asian. I'm not talking about simple pride in culture but an excessive sence of superiority.
To me that documentary was about racism and a sense of cultural supremacy, rather than religion. There is a perception among other ethnic groups that asians look down on both them and the majority white British population.
You may think that this perception is unfair, maybe it is, probably it is; but it does exist. I think that documentary showed an example of a majority community harassing a minority (the white kids) into accepting their culture and way of thinking. It wasn’t pleasant to watch.
From a Muslim point of view there is anecdotal evidence of the same thing. If you talk to Somali Muslims you will hear resentment at the less than friendly welcome they received at asian Mosques in the early 1990’s. Or Kurds or Turks who feel sneered at by Arab Muslims. Consequently there is a good deal of tension between those various groups in London. That’s what I mean by “cultural Islam”.
Dave get a grip you silly man!
I can assure you that [b]almost all[/b] Muslims (either mainstream and unconventional) would condemn such compulsion in religion!
Why should you not trust your kid with a hijabi teacher?
(BTW hijab is cover; I’m sure all teachers are covered, more specifically you should have said headscarf)
The headscarf is not necessarily the identity of a Muslim, some Christians and Jews where it too coz it’s part of [i]their[/i] religion. In fact I read a quote from the Bible which said women who do not cover their hair should have their heads shaved! Some jewish sects won’t even allow their women to show their hair even to their husbands! I can list loads of unconventional muslims that don’t believe the headscarf is Islamic! In some parts of Africa it is the muslim [b]men[/b] that where the headscarf and not the women! I know many girls who where the headscarf for fashion / cultural reasons.
Notice how profound the headscarf issue can go?
Well Mr Hamilton the same also applies to the views of Muslims.
I remember when you first joined the forum, you were such a nice guy, now you’ve just turned into racist.
BTW did you miss me?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
I don't know, I'm scared religeous elitists might approve. Facist and extremist are minorities but elitist is basically arrogance and thats one the most subtle woes prevelant in us. Fortuynately elitist tends to be more of and extreme flavour of aarogance though so there's hope that the majority will be objectively lucid at any one time.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
you mean chinese, bengali, indian, pakistani you mean the whole of the asian continent are arrogant!
that is such an infantile statement to make and none of your reasons make any sense at all to me.
And Dave is right in being angry. targeting kids is abhorrent as i've already said and as we all know.
Dave i cant speak for those whose comments oppose this view but i feel that there may be a genuine lack of understanding of the content of the film, as even Dust seemed to think it was harmless
on the other hand sad to say that there are those who think that they are involved in some game where they win points in converting and it seems that they have no morals or scruples and will defend the lowest of the low
how dare such shameful acts be supported.
Defenders should think hard about their morals and whether they really are suited to be loudspeakers for Islam (Med). Islam is a fair religion and protects the rights of the non Muslim equally as those of the Muslim
[b]Latifah[/b] makes a good argument, reminds me of a revert friend who was taught to read and recite Urdu as to learning Arabic upon him accepting Islam. For the average proud Pakistani this is harmless but contradicts to seeking knowledge in light of Quran and Sunnah- what he was searching for.
[b]Latifah: [/b]I'm glad you had the fortitude to just say it....you're right. I'm tired of Muslims dodging this issue, as an Asian Muslim I can say racial bigotry is especially endemic among our communities (some of the unbelievably racist garbage I've heard in my time...). The Pakistani community haven’t exactly been welcoming their brothers & sisters from Bosnia in parts of London such as Barking, and so on with Somalian’s and Somaliland people! Even our Masjids have become segregated.
Althought Pakistani makes up the majority of the Indian subcontinent Muslim population in the uk, I could only assume she means Indo-Pak and perhaps even the Bengalis. I would admit that my culture dogma interferes with the true teachings of Islam, that is why 90% of my culture I can do without and the 10% (food) I can do with.
Dawah is a very noble action and it is infact a fardh so you should view it like prayer and all the other fardhs . And I sticky resistant your wording [u]“they win points”[/u] that comment alone undermines all the sincere muslim who’ve spent hours, days, nights, years, decades, and centuries spreading the message of Islam to non-muslim and your summarisations of their intentions is to simply win points? That is beyond belief. How dare such shameful and ignorant comments be espoused.
Your opinion on this documentary is only an opinion, Thank Allah it is not factual.
I was talking about Britain’s Asian Muslims not just Pakistani’s as you seemed to think.
Pakistani’s are not the only Muslims in the UK.
In a British context “asian” refers to those from the Indian sub-continent not the Chinese.
Did you read the rest of my post or did you just go into one over that one line you misunderstood?
Allow me to clarify.
Let me summerise what I was trying to say.
My point was that the documentary was an example of racism and cultural supremacy.
Instead of white racism against minorities, this was, in my opinion, a clear example of asian racism.
Hence the title: “The Last White Kids”.
Furthermore, I pointed out that – fairly or unfairly – there is a feeling among Britain’s non-asian Muslims that “some” asian Muslims look down on them and their cultural traditions.
I’ve heard that view expressed by, among others, Somali, Turkish, Kurdish, Kosovan and Iranian Muslims.
They all can’t be making it up.
“Arrogance” is a word often used. Infantile isn’t.
Of course this is a generalisation but it is an issue that needs to be aired. There are tensions between various Muslim communities largely due to cultural differences and they won’t go away by ignoring them.
Aside from that, I agree with most of what you have written.
Thank you Shazan. I’m glad that you understood what I was trying to say.
I don’t entirely agree with you about the documentary; specifically I feel that those kids were taught asian culture rather that Islam.
However, your point about racism and divided Masjids is so important to me.
For example, if you have a Mosque where the Iman only speaks Urdu, what use is that to a Somali or a Turk?
I hate the fact that Mosques are segregated on racial/ethnic lines. Islam is for all humanity and it is so disappointing to see predominantly Asian Mosques, Arab Mosques or Turkish Mosques.
I live in West London so I’m luckier than most in that I can go to Regents Park which is far less segregated than so many others.
However, I know Bosnian, Kosovan and Albanian Muslims who no longer bother going to their local Mosque’s because of the unfriendly welcome they get from the community. This is VERY hurtful to those who were persecuted in their homelands for the very fact that they were MUSLIMS.
I’m sorry to say it, but I don’t think most Asian Muslims appreciate that.
lol, wasn't the same without you.
Any chance you are going to play by the rules and keep your PM rights this time? Otherwise we will not be able to continue our mid-day conversations.
judda, you have your PM priviledges back. Now don't lose them again. (Do not even try to play the game, or you will lose.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
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